And now for something completely different. Last night, I lost it.....

Having received the first negative feedback (and defect) of my entire selling career from a buyer who used the Feedback Forum to provide a product review, I called ebay Customer Service and received such incredibly poor customer service from their The Phillipines-based reps in the Escalation Department, that I actually opened an account elsewhere today and listed my first item for sale on the Big Competition to ebay. 

 

I am traumatized by their total disregard to my position. Not only that, I spoke to three levels of reps during a call that logged 1:21 minutes and counting and, finally, was assured I would get a call-back today from The Supervisor who did nothing of the sort. No one called. No One. 

 

Adding insult to injury, the third rep quoted ebay.com policy at me when I quoted ebay.ca policy back to him. That it was different didn't matter. 

 

This letter 'eBay Won't Correct Mistake over Seller Compliance Issue' to everyone's favourite blog, eCommeBytes http://www.ecommercebytes.com/C/letters/blog.pl?/pl/2015/9/1443544396.html sums up my sentiments exactly. I did not write it. It's not mine, this wasn't my issue but it certainly was the way I was treated, and the way I now feel.

 

What is left for sellers to do? It is not in my nature to be discouraged. Ever. But I think that I have given up here. 

 

 

Message 1 of 31
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30 REPLIES 30

And now for something completely different. Last night, I lost it.....

You posted 10 minutes ago.

 

The negative feedback is already gone! Smiley Happy

Message 2 of 31
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And now for something completely different. Last night, I lost it.....

Thank you, Pierre. I am grateful that the buyer agreed to revise their feedback (suggested it themselves, as a matter of fact) and out of respect for that, I won't get into the circumstances around that aspect of my disappointment here. I really feel as if the Service Reps let me down. None listened to what I said, at least they seemed to listen only long enough to argue and not one took the time to actually look at WHAT the feedback was about and the point(s) that I was trying to make. What I said mattered not to them. It was disillusioning. Extremely so. 

 

And then there is the issue of quoting ebay.com policy to me. This transaction took place on ebay.ca. The guidelines are different. The rep kept arguing about 'cause for defect removal' and I kept telling him that 'feedback removal is different than defect removal'. One may lead to the other but they are not one in the same. I can show you what I mean:

 

ebay.com defect removal http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/defect-removal.html

 

ebay.ca guidelines for feedback revisions http://pages.ebay.ca/help/policies/feedback-removal.html

 

It was like I was talking to a brick wall. 

 

The result is that I am now the proud (?) new owner of a storefront down the river. Population: One, soon to be 838. I'm saddened about this, believe it or not. 

 

Message 3 of 31
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And now for something completely different. Last night, I lost it.....

This transaction took place on ebay.ca. The guidelines are different. The rep kept arguing about 'cause for defect removal' and I kept telling him that 'feedback removal is different than defect removal'. One may lead to the other but they are not one in the same. I can show you what I mean:

 

Actually, the guidelines are the same between the two sites but the .ca help pages are always out of date. The feedback removal policy was replaced with the defect policy but they haven't yet made the change on our help pages. 

 

Since I can't see the negative I can't really comment but I do know that some sellers have had some uck getting rid of a defects that sound similar to yours. They seem to have better luck with U.S. reps and sometimes have to try more than once.

 

I consider myself a very good seller and I've received some defects and one negative over the years. The majority of those really weren't in my control and although it was frustrating to receive them, they didn't really affect me so I just moved on. I know that you've been frustrated with a number of other things that have happened here in the past few months so I can understand why you would want to try another site...and really...it's a good idea not to put all of your eggs in one basket. But do keep in mind that a defect here and there is just bound to happen sooner or later to all of us and it doesn't really mean anything. In fact in February..that negative wouldn't even cause a defect.

 

Also...according to some U.S. sellers who sell on both sites...the grass isn't always greener. But...I do hope that there is much less stress there for you. I hope too that you are going to keep a store here too.

 

 

Message 4 of 31
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And now for something completely different. Last night, I lost it.....

Hi mjwl!

 

What ended up working for you is what I always try to do first, get the buyer to "fix it"

 

As a note, if you ever do call support again, call during normal business hours. When I call I call after 1pm my time (which is 10am PST). That way you will tend to avoid overseas support.

 

The folks manning the phones will range from folks who are doing everything they can to help you to those who are doing everything they can to just put in the day. Generally they will likely have time pressures on them to wrap up calls fast, and they'll have an "expertise" system that is supposed to help them find and provide the correct answers. Quoting the expertise is not good but it certainly happens, I've had it happen when I've called in. (At one time, in a lifetime long ago it seems, I managed a service/help desk). Just like buyers one has to hope one gets a good support person!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Message 5 of 31
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And now for something completely different. Last night, I lost it.....

Hey there, thank you both pj and ricarmic. I placed the call at shortly after 5 pm CST in the hope that I might find a Rep who would legitimately understand what I needed to convey and out of respect to the extenuating circumstances behind this negative feedback that I really shouldn't compromise, it seemed crystal clear to me that it violated fair comment and bore zero reflection on my performance in the transaction as a seller. No one I spoke to about it, however, was willing to take the time to actually look at the problem I was trying to show them.

 

And if an entity's published Help pages reflect outdated information, that outdated information is by that virtue the information that has to be adhered to. A credit card company, for example, can't change your user agreement and then send you a pamphlet with an agreement dated 1982 but published the same day as it was mailed. It's a violation of fair trade and commerce law, of that I am certain. 

 

I rarely act in haste and without due diligence. I am painfully aware of the limitations of selling as a third-party for the Main Competition to ebay. The difference is that when one signs a deal to ride that particular gorilla's back, they have accepted they are a flea on the back of a gorilla. ebay, on the other hand, is a venue and all parties are supposed to be equal in the eyes of it. I did not invest my effort here to be treated as if I am an annoying parasite who merely does not know its place. This is the taste left in my mouth now as a result of this final disappointment. And, it is really a disappointment. I've never complained about poor sales or bad buyers; it is the total disregard from ebay's seller support that has killed my once abounding love for this place. 

 

It is the sellers here that are ebay's customers, and buyers are the customers of its sellers. 

 

I don't know how that fact has been lost in the scramble here. 

 

But thank you. As I begin the long, sad exit dance, it is ebay Community members like yourselves that I will miss the most. 

 

Message 6 of 31
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And now for something completely different. Last night, I lost it.....

Hi 'mj' -- I have to say, having read through this thread, that I completely sympathize with your sense of frustration with, and (for lack of a better word) betrayal by, eBay.  

 

However, let me suggest that you take a deep breath and before abandoning this site entirely in one fell swoop, let the matter sit for a week or so to get some perspective.  The reason I say this is that I've been in precisely the same place about a year ago (for different reasons, but the result was the same), but unlike my younger self, who might have made an impulsive move based on frustration and pique with eBay, I decided to postpone any action for a couple of weeks.  At that point I felt I'd had time to gain perspective and make some choices from a more analytical and cost-effective foundation, rather than an emotional reaction.  

 

What that experience did to me was to change me from an eBay optimist into an eBay realist.  I grew a thicker skin practically overnight.  It isn't pretty, but it has helped me carry on and take what I need from selling here.  

 

I now accept, as a fact, for example, that "Customer Service" is going to be a frustrating, next-to-useless option, so I don't expect any help from that end.  EBay's CS is, for the most part, merely lip service in my opinion.  If eBay could replace the live bodies with canned responses and still get away with it, they probably would.  This is no longer the eBay of 10 years ago where you could send a question in by email and get a knowledgeable response (from someone with both a command of eBay policy and a command of English).  

 

However, the CS issue is just one aspect of my "new view" of eBay.  Another is that I have to do everything possible to protect myself against defects, even if that means (as 'ricarmic' pointed out), trying to resolve a FB issue directly with a customer.   My "new view" of eBay is that I am going to use this site now for my own benefit, as long as there is a profit to be made, without any expectation of assistance, accommodation, or concessions from eBay in terms of making it easier or simpler to sell here.  As I've said on other occasions, my current attitude toward this site is "sauve qui peut" (every man/woman to himself).  

 

I can understand the feeling of frustration and anger at having worked for years to maintain a perfect FB/defect record and then suddenly having an unfair negative FB comment appear.  This did happen to me, and I (ever so politely) got the buyer to revise it.  I don't think 'pj' was quite as cool about her experience at the time as she may now recall -- I seem to remember a number of upset and frustrated posts with Raphael over the issue.  It does feel like unfair and arbitrary punishment when one tries so hard.  

 

But this is the new eBay, and I stay now not because their policies and rules make selling here easier, but primarily because of the greater exposure here and because it still suits my purposes from a business point of view.  However, it does make sense these days not to put all your eggs in one basket, whether here or elsewhere.  I came to this conclusion too earlier this year and have been selling successfully on other sites, without all the garbage to deal with on eBay.  

 

Still, I won't leave eBay as long as I can continue to make even a small profit here, and as long as eBay doesn't downgrade me into oblivion as a result of their new policies, because I believe every additional exposure is a good thing.  Interestingly, I find for example that items which don't sell well on other sites sell better here -- perhaps a different demographic is involved.  In any event, and for what it's worth, my advice would be to keep your eBay store open (perhaps on a month-to-month basis) as long as you can make a profit here, but try experimenting with selling products elsewhere as well.  My guess is that you'll find the experience will give you a more clear-eyed and realistic, if not cynical view, of eBay that will help protect you against feeling betrayed and mistreated by this site.   At least that's what it did for me.   

 

I wanted to add that, at least in my opinion, you are in a somewhat more favourable position than many of us, in that you've mentioned you use tracked shipping quite a lot.  This fact alone should help to statistically shield you against defects after February if you can hang on long enough to benefit from the new policy changes.  In other words, your defect risks and worries will be a lot lower come February, 2016, so it may be worth sticking it out here past that point, even if you do set up on another site as well.  

 

All of the above simply given in an effort to be helpful....Woman Happy

Message 7 of 31
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And now for something completely different. Last night, I lost it.....

I'm not sure that these comments are different or just more of the same old same old.

What is different is that when eBay announced that it's about to alleviate a lot of the pressure surrounding unfair defects, the response here was largely negative.

Seems that the timing is a little off.

Leaving eBay because of the unfair rating system just before so many of the issues are about to be corrected doesn't make a lot of sense.

Message 8 of 31
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And now for something completely different. Last night, I lost it.....

"...just before so many of the issues are about to be corrected..."

 

If that is how you see the changes announced in the Fall Update affecting your eBay business --- good for you!

 

While most American sellers will benefit from the changes, that is not how I see the policy changes for many Canadians.

 

Different strokes for different folks.

Message 9 of 31
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And now for something completely different. Last night, I lost it.....

What I saw was that most of the current issues with unfair defects will be resolved.  I know that every one of my defects will disappear with the new system.

 

The only glitch is that the way it stands now is that shipping/transit time will become a problem for some sellers unless they (eBay) fix some obvious problems and they have plenty of time to do that.

 

That is, there are currently numerous ways to get unfair defects and with the new system there will be only one (transit time).

 

What am I missing?

Message 10 of 31
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And now for something completely different. Last night, I lost it.....

"What am I missing?"

 

Please take the time to read all questions, comments and inquiries on this thread by Canadian sellers

 

http://community.ebay.ca/t5/Seller-Updates/2015-Fall-Seller-Update/m-p/312578#U312578

 

While the changes may be favourable to you and your eBay business, the same cannot be said for many other Canadian sellers.

Message 11 of 31
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And now for something completely different. Last night, I lost it.....


@sylviebee wrote:

 

 

That is, there are currently numerous ways to get unfair defects and with the new system there will be only one (transit time).

 

What am I missing?


I think this is a false comparison.  What you are missing is that, for most Canadian sellers, the decision will be between continuing with their normal shipping practices and leaving themselves completely exposed to the vagaries of the postal services and/or weather delays (and hence delivery time defects), or protecting themselves against defects by using tracking and virtually throwing away most of their profits in the process.

 

Many Canadian sellers are already struggling under ever-increasing Canada Post rates, and simply cannot absorb more costs in that respect.  As I've said in other places, this new defect policy creates a serious Catch-22 for most of us. 

 

Secondly, keep in mind that the new policy represents a shift in the manner in which defects are created.  The genesis of defects will now be based on one factor -- use of tracking.  If tracking is simply not economically feasible for a Canadian seller, then defects will be generated as a result of pure luck -- luck that both Canada Post and USPS do their jobs, luck that there are no weather or transportation delays, luck that a buyer will be able or willing to answer the question concerning timely delivery accurately and honestly, luck that...etc. etc. etc.  In other words, all factors completely beyond a seller's control.  

 

The old defect system at least primarily relied on factors a seller (especially a Canadian) had some control over.  This system may appear simpler and fairer on the face of it -- and of course this is how eBay is touting it -- but that only holds true for that segment of eBay's Canadian sellers who can afford the cost of tracking, or for U.S. sellers who have reasonably-priced tracking already available to them.  

 

Canadian sellers who list higher-priced goods and who therefore may be able to absorb the cost of tracking for a majority of shipments will not be as exposed to defects as the rest of us.  My understanding was that 'mj' was in this category.  

Message 12 of 31
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And now for something completely different. Last night, I lost it.....

Pierre, I read the concerns of sellers when the changes were first announced.  To me it looked like a lot of unnecessary drama.

 

Two things:  eBay has a lot of time to tweak the rules, and also, even if they don't:  If a seller isn't having a problem with transit time DSRs now, it's unlikely they will with the upcoming changes.

 

However, I do understand that those who are having issues with that DSR now may have those problems compounded when the new system is put into action.

 

 

Rose:  Defects are already generated as a result of pure luck, so nothing changes there other than there will be only one issue to worry about.

 

Again: There are currently numerous ways to get unfair defects and with the new system there will be only one (unless I'm missing something).  How is that a bad thing?

Message 13 of 31
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And now for something completely different. Last night, I lost it.....

I can understand the feeling of frustration and anger at having worked for years to maintain a perfect FB/defect record and then suddenly having an unfair negative FB comment appear.  This did happen to me, and I (ever so politely) got the buyer to revise it.  I don't think 'pj' was quite as cool about her experience at the time as she may now recall -- I seem to remember a number of upset and frustrated posts with Raphael over the issue.

 

 

hmmm...well my memory is far from perfect but I don't recall writing a number of 'upset' posts to Raphael or Kalvin

about the negative that I received but I think that I did ask for advice on the sellers's board about it.  I might have mentioned it to them when it suddenly became a defect 6 months later but that's just a guess.  I think that the majority of my posts to the ebay mods are not about personal situations but more about general 'system' problems.

 

Regardless, my point was that receiving a feedback and/or defect that seems unfair happens to most of us and although it is frustrating when it happens....in the end, it probably won't affect anything.  The first one probably hurts the most!

 

 

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And now for something completely different. Last night, I lost it.....

The only defect category I have a problem with now is time.  If i didn't have sales spread over 4 TRS ids (that effectively raises the 2%  threshold with the "5 mininimum to count", I'd have lost TRS at times.

 

The new rules will likely make it even tougher.  While the advertised "% slow" defect allowance seems to go up, in reality it doesn't because they won't count the 40% who are happy but never leave fb.  Then changing it from a 1-5 scale, where people who think its slow but leave 3s and 4s without consequence will now only get a yes or no choice.  If everyone who didn't leave a 5 for time counted as "bad", I'd never have had TRS.

 

It gets really hard to take when we see "global" ratings count against us while they don't in the US and other large countries.  Even Autralia site  has gone to domestic ratings.  This despsite ebay being well aware Canada Post is more of a handicap then elsewhere 

 

The other things that won't count as defects mean absolutely nothing to me as I've never had an issue with them.  Or they were just in addition to  a "time" defect like the neutral I have on this id.

 

I agree the changes are a huge win for sellers who send items of a size that have to go tracked, and sellers who send items that aren't as described     

Message 15 of 31
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And now for something completely different. Last night, I lost it.....

I can see how this particular change may affect me more than the current defect system but until ebay gives us some numbers in November, I'm not going to put too much thought into it. Every time there is a change like this we tend to think the worst and sometimes we are right....but more often the hype is worse than the actual event.

 

Message 16 of 31
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And now for something completely different. Last night, I lost it.....


@pjcdn2005 wrote:

..but more often the hype is worse than the actual event.

 


Exactly!

 

In my case I know the changes will be welcome, but I'm close to a hub and my items arrive much faster than expected regardless of how I ship.

 

I do, however, get my items to the PO in time for the next pick up when possible.

 

If it were a problem the first thing I'd do is increase handling time.  (It's a forgivable lie.)

 

There are those like Toby above for whom it might be a problem, but we each have areas where we're more vulnerable or buffered to some degree.

 

Also, it does look like eBay is backing off and working towards a fairer system and so there's a good chance they'll tweak the proposals before implementing them.

 

 

 

Message 17 of 31
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And now for something completely different. Last night, I lost it.....


@sylviebee wrote:
Also, it does look like eBay is backing off and working towards a fairer system and so there's a good chance they'll tweak the proposals before implementing them.  

I'm not sure how you arrived at this conclusion.  The new policy will only be fair for those who can afford tracking, or have a large enough volume to buffer against the total by which the new metrics will be calculated.  It is certainly anything but an even playing field, and will seriously disadvantage smaller sellers simply because it's a numbers game. 

 

As an example, a Canadian seller with an annual transaction volume of 5,000 and a FB rate of 50%, with a 50% response rate on the on-time delivery question will have a statistical base of 1250 transactions on which the late shipment rate will be calculated.  At a maximum of 5%, that seller will be able to absorb 62 late shipment responses before losing Global TRS, or 112 late shipment responses to retain standard required seller performance status.  

 

On the other hand, a Canadian seller with an annual transaction count of 200, and with the same FB and delivery response rates (50% and 50%) will be judged based on just 50 transactions on which buyers leave a delivery time response.  5% of those 50 transactions is just 2.5, so with just 3 postal mishaps or buyer misinterpretations or memory failure within a year, that seller will lose Global TRS.  It doesn't take too many ordinary snowstorms each winter to slow down air traffic.  

 

With 5 "no" responses, the 200 transaction per annum seller will fall below the required seller standards.  At that point, according to eBay's details on this policy, eBay "may restrict the shipping options your listings can offer...", which I read to mean obliging the seller to offer tracked shipping only.  How well will that work for Canadians?   

 

So if you are one of the lucky few who can afford (or justify) tracking, or have a large annual transaction count then no, this policy is of little concern.  

 

'toby'  was quite right that currently, a buyer is asked to give a subjective rating for the shipping time DSR -- and the only rating that now counts as a defect is a "1", which would represent quite an extreme situation.  By contrast, under the new system, buyers will have no choice but "yes" or "no".  There's a 50% chance that those who don't, can't, or won't remember the delivery date accurately will choose no.  

 

To have been fair to Canadians, the new policy would have taken the reality of our shipping situation into account, providing us with a much wider leeway for failure, say 10% or 15% (or perhaps even excused us completely).  This is clearly a U.S.-focused plan, and will in any event make it far easier for sellers with higher volumes to maintain their seller status.  

 

We should also recognize that the other nasty side of the coin of this policy (from buyers' perspectives) is that a lot of egregious behaviour may now be let loose on eBay that had been bottled up and fenced in by the existing defect system.  Although the existing defect system created some unfair scenarios, it did have the desired effect of cleaning up some of the worst selling offences.  

 

Basically, under the new rules, as long as a seller keeps items in stock, delivers on eBay's time schedule with tracking, and refunds promptly if there is a complaint (i.e. avoids cases being opened), there isn't much that can do his eBay seller status any damage.  Consider what this will mean for the big-volume Chinese sellers who can afford tracking for $10 items.  We thought they were getting away with murder previously.... Smiley Frustrated

Message 18 of 31
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And now for something completely different. Last night, I lost it.....


@sylviebee wrote:
In my case I know the changes will be welcome, but I'm close to a hub and my items arrive much faster than expected regardless of how I ship.

 

 


Being close to a hub will have little to do with it once the new policy becomes effective.  

 

We will all be dependent on what happens after we drop parcels off at our local P.O. -- whether that be a weather event in Canada, a delay at Customs, a snowstorm in New York City (where all my U.S. parcels end up), an unexpected backlog or slowdown at some point along the route, an airport shutdown for whatever reason, or a USPS screw-up.  

 

At the moment, those delays are judged on a scale by buyers who leave FB, and "damage control" by the seller is quite possible with proper handling of the situation and good communication with the buyer.  Soon though, sellers will be judged by an absolute: a mere "yes" or "no" based on eBay's own estimates.  And buyers will be asked to answer that question even if the seller has already made efforts to make the situation right for the buyer.  

 

Two words: good luck! 

Message 19 of 31
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And now for something completely different. Last night, I lost it.....

rose-dee, My items arrive on time.  That's how I arrived at my conclusions.  

 

 

I can't be the only one who's items arrive on time.

 

In any case, wait and see because it's way too early to get upset and spend time and energy analyzing something that may never be a problem.

 

If it becomes an issue in time, worry about it then.   If nothing else there is always the option of increasing handling time and that should be a relatively easy fix.

 

For now, the problem has been brought to the attention of the powers that be and no amount of worrying will change the outcome.

 

 

Message 20 of 31
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