Buyers can now give you a defect without reason!

[avionsunantiques]

I`m currently experiencing an interesting problem, which others may find interesting.

I`m currently selling some antiques from the estate of a former collector client of mine who died in 2012.   I bought a number of pieces from the auction of his estate items following his death.

I then put many of them on ebay.    In the ebay listing, I stated that I had bought these from the estate of the above collector.    I gave the collector`s name, and the name of the collector`s collection, and mentioned he`had died in 2012, and I had purchased the subject item from his estate.

I`ve sold a number of these items to very happy clients via unreserved auction - some brought good prices, and some sold for much less than I expected - I figured thats the way auctions work, and I honored all the winning bids.    Then I had one oversea`s small time ebay reseller win three of my items.    He received them and I didn`t hear anything from the guy, so I assumed he was happy.    As it turned out he relisted the same items on ebay, with buy it now prices up to 5 times what he had won my auctions for.    Not surprisingly he was unsuccessful reselling the items.

After some time, and without warning, he opened 3 item not as described complaints.    He did not claim there was anything wrong with the items condition, or authenticity.     He claimed that I didn`t buy them from the person I said I did!   As a result I instantly got 3 defects.   He did this without asking to see the receipts I have.

Rather than risk negative feedback, I agreed to this guy returning my items.   

I also showed him the receipts.

This makes a mockery of auction sales.   For example, if I took my items back to the auction I bought them from, and said I wanted to return them because I didn`t like them, I`d get laughed out of the building. 

I`ve got receipts which clearly show I bought these items exactly where I said I did. 

I contacted ebay to see if I could get these three defects removed, on the grounds that the complaint is ridiculous.

Ebay told me the buyer does not need to support their claims - they can make a claim about anything they like - for example, the colour of the text in the font you use in your ebay lsiting, or they can simply say they don`t think the owner is the legal owner.   They don`t need to provide any evidence - all they have to do is make an allegation.     The seller will get a defect in each case.

Even though I have receipts to support the truth of my statement about where I bought my items.   And even though its obvious this buyer decided to return his purchase because he was unable to resell them on ebay for several times more than he paid me, ebay will not remove the 3 defects.

Ebay does not require the buyer to have any evidence to support his claim.

And to make it even worse, I now have to pay his return mail fees too.   Even though I have said I will not voluntarily pay the return mail cost, ebay is going to reimburse the buyer themselves, which means they will take the money from me against my wishes.

This means I can buy your item on ebay, and try to resell it on ebay.   If I am successful, I keep the profit.    If I am unsuccessful I can open a return claim on ebay, and return the item to you for a complete refund of everything I paid you - item cost, mail cost, and the return mail cost!

This is crazy! 

[pjcdn2005]

OP I've read on other boards that if a buyer files an item not described claim and you agree to a return...ebay considers that an admission that the buyer is correct.....you end up getting the defects and have to pay return shipping.   If you don't agree with the claim then they say that you can ask them to look into it but of course if you lose then you have an unresolved claim which isn't a good thing. In a lot of these cases there doesn't seem to be any winning scenario.

Although I can understand why ebay has put in some of these rules, it really bothers me that the only way to fight being penalized is to take a chance on being penalized more.

[pjcdn2005]

 If I had not requested the return of fees, I would not have got the defect.

Unfortunately, that's not true. If you do a refund and don't cancel, ebay assumes that the refund  was caused by something that you did or didn't do.  I suppose that if they didn't give defects for a refunds, then sellers  would be able to get around the defect system if they were willing to forgo their ebay fees.

[mater721]

"Customers are those who give the seller either money or service for a product. Sellers give eBay money for provding a third party service thus they are eBays customers."

Well, IMO you are using a very narrow definition of customer. Does not necessarily need to include a direct money transaction.

A person dealing with a municipal employee can still be a customer even though money does not change hands.

The point is, ebay needs to be concerned with the needs of both parties equally.

[patken123]

Customers are those who give the seller either money or service for a product. Sellers give eBay money for provding a third party service thus they are eBays customers.

Both ebay and buyers should thank you for clarifying that ,all this time I thought those with money to spend are the customers.the only reason you give ebay money "for providing third party service" is because a buyer/customer (with money to spend) wants to buy your item(through ebay),that alone put you and ebay both on the same side . 

[avionsunantiques]

I have another question.

In this case, the buyer claims to have returned my three items.   They have entered a tracking number in the UK, which when tracked says the item was mailed on Dec 15, 2014.    

When the same number is entered into canadapost, there is no tracking info.

Initially I thought this was because Canadapost was a bit behind, but after 5 days I'm wondering about other options.

Does anyone know if the returning party and print a label from ebay or paypal which indicates the item has been mailed, but not actually mail the item?

In my case, it looks like the tracking number is recognized by UK mail, but after 5 days, there is no further info.     Its almost as if an electronic postage label was crated, but the item was not given to the post office.

Is this possible?    

Is there a way crooked buyers can fiddle the ebay return process.

[triber]

I understand your frustration, this is beyond annoying, I hope you can get some resolution.

My last 3 defects were caused by buyers mistakes or fraud.

1) A few weeks ago a buyer (in her 80's she told me) had purchased 2 hand crocheted doilies. She paid for them separately, so I emailed her and said I would mail them together and gave her a refund on the shipping. A couple of weeks later she gave feedback for one of the items, not a problem, multiple buyers often just leave one feedback. Then another couple of weeks I got a  request opened for item not received and for return of payment on the other one. I checked my files and saw that I had mailed both together so I contacted her and she was full of apologies, she forgot she received them together. I asked if she would close the case so that I didn't get a defect, which she did, about half an hour after she opened it. Well, I got a defect, I called eBay and explained the situation, they put me through to the person who can remove defects, and after a while he said I qualified to get it removed. Great!, he left and then came back to the phone and I heard the dreaded words "what is the tracking number". I explained that I can't charge buyers for tracked shipping on low cost item, he said there was nothing he could do then. Later, the lady wrote and asked if everything was alright and hoping I didn't get a defect, I told her I had and what eBay had said. She was very upset. Later she wrote and said she had called eBay, and the told her they wouldn't remove it because it didn't have tracking number. What more proof do you need of the delivery than the actual word of the buyer!!

2) I mailed a package to the US, buyer filed an "item not received" request. I refunded right away. A few days later I wrote and asked if she had received it because the time was fairly short since payment. She said no, it had never arrived. 2 DAYS LATER IT ARRIVED BACK IN MY MAILBOX. It was in a different package, the Paypal label had been cut off and re-attached, and the word "REFUSED" was written right down the side. She never replied when I asked what had happened, I guess she didn't want to pay return postage, but I got a defect.

3) A buyer filed and "item not as described" request. I found out that she was looking at the wrong package, mine arrived a couple of days later. She apologized, but too late, another defect.

I feel like a victim to buyers mistakes and fraudulent acts. There is nothing I can do to protect myself, and I can keep getting unfair defects. If I have made a mistake, I have no problem, but what if the buyer or the shipping company makes a mistake, how can we avoid that however hard we try to do our best as sellers.

[avionsunantiques]

Thanks for that reply - it is a good example of who unfair this defect process is.

The consequence of this defect process will be to reduce selling activity on ebay.   Sooner or later, you risk being driven out of selling items from Canada that are uncompetative when tracked shipping is included.

It reminds me of a similar situation that caused me to have to stop a big part of my business.

I specialize in selling Chinese porcelain.    As you might imagine, many of my customers are in China.    It is relatively expensive to ship from Canada to China.    Because its China, items must be tracked, otherwise every untracked package will result in a fraudulent item not received complaint.    That leaves Canadapost surface parcel or Canadapost xpresspost.   Both are tracked, and since I only ship to the paypal address, I both comply with ebay and paypal's seller protection policy.    Surface mail takes 6-12 weeks, and xpresspost takes 1-2 weeks.

Surface mail is about half the cost.    ie a typical package would be $80 by surface, or $160 by air (xpresspost)

The Chinese buyers when given the choice of with method, usually select the cheaper surface mail, with full knowledge of the 6-12 delivery period.    Then after 3-4 weeks, they file an item not received complaint.     I get an automatic defect.    If the item has not arrived within 1-2 weeks later, paypal refunds the buyer (even though the tracking info shows the item is in transit).    The item was ultimately always delivered on schedule, and I got my money back in each case, usually with the help of the better business bureau.  But the defects stayed.

As a result of the above, I got a large number of defects when the new defect policy came into place.   Once the new defect rule was announced I had to stop giving Chinese buyers the surface mail option.   As a result, my mail cost doubled over night, and sales declined dramatically.    This is a perfect example of the defect policy reducing my business success, and also reducing ebay's revenue (as they get about 10% of my sales).

The old method was bad (I had to go through the bbb to get my money), and I would get low scores on the delivery time.     The new method is much worse.     My choice now is no tracked surface mail to China, and lower sales, or keep surface mail to China, and become a sub standard seller (with reduced search exposure, and 20% higher selling fees).

The bottomline is I've been looking for an ebay alternative for years now, but this lastest ebay policy has made it critical for me to find an alternative way of selling online.     I now have no choice other than to invest in my own web site, and exit ebay.

Before I wanted to leave ebay because of frustration with unfair feedback etc.   Those policies annoyed me, but didn't damage my business model, so I stayed with ebay.     This defect policy significantly damages my business model, so now its a financial decision, and thats not something I can ignore.

If its happening to me, its probably happening in other ways to many others.

[pierrelebel]

I understand your problem.  I really do.  Unfortunately there is no easy solution.

" I now have no choice other than to invest in my own web site, and exit ebay"

That will not solve your problem.

1) You will find that the cost of running your website and, more importantly, advertising it so potential buyers can find it will cost you as much as you are currently spending on eBay in fees.

2) You still have to get paid and buyers from China will continue to pay you by credit card.  It does not matter if you use PayPal or arrange your own merchant account, the same Chinese buyers will continue to file claims for "non receipt" six weeks after you ship by "surface".  You may not get "defects" but you will still lose the money just the same.

I wish I could suggest a solution.  Sorry, I do not see any for all the relatively low priced items (under $400) where air parcel service is too expensive.

[pjcdn2005]

As far as I know, when the label is printed, tracking will just say that an electronic label has been printed. It should say accepted or something similar once it is at the post office.

I imagine that the UK site would have the most info until the item enters Canada...assuming there is every any movement. 

[triber]

When the cost of small package airmail tripled or quadrupled last January to International destinations, I cancelled selling all packages apart from lettermail and light package Internationally, this has certainly impacted my sales, but at least I am not getting complaints about the high cost of shipping.

[pocomocomputing]

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@triber wrote:

When the cost of small package airmail tripled or quadrupled last January to International destinations, I cancelled selling all packages apart from lettermail and light package Internationally, this has certainly impacted my sales, but at least I am not getting complaints about the high cost of shipping.

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???? Small Packet International went up 2-3 %.

Are you talking about Tracked Packet International? Not the same  service. Tracked Packet International is a new tracked service. 

Small Packet is still there but without insurance. Third party insurance is available for most countries or self insure. If you can ship Light Packet International without insurance or tracking, why not Small Packet?

[berubegirl]

We agree with your post and were in similar position.

However do not think that ebay is this only online solution anymore because those days are long over. Do a few google searches and you will see options available to Canadians and a lot of them cheaper than ebay also.

We have started selling on those sites and are fading out ebay over the next year(finish our store sub here) for those competing sites. Some of the results we are achieving on those new sites are really promising as new sellers there.

You may need to join a couple of different sites to gain the views ebay is offering but the overall experience and more specifically the customer service offered by those site is cosmic stellar compared to the Zero Care Zero IQ CSR ebay specializes in.

Good luck!

[2014sportsterguy]

Ebay should learn a lesson from GM,Lehman brothers,WorldCom.inc,Pacific Gas and Electric ,Enron,Refco,IndyMac, etc etc and likely a million little sellers on EBay.

[triber]

In 2012 I could mail a 250 gram small package airmail, that was insured to the UK for about $8.60. Now to mail that same package insured it is $37.23! Removing the insurance was a bit thing, but mailing surface for me is not an option, it just takes too long.

[femmefan1946]

The Chinese buyers when given the choice of with method, usually select the cheaper surface mail, with full knowledge of the 6-12 delivery period.    Then after 3-4 weeks, they file an item not received complaint.

The answer is pretty straightforward.

Don't give the buyer a choice.

The 'cheaper' service is too expensive for you to offer.

And remember if your buyer is buying in Canada, it is because the item is not available in China. He can now choose to pay the actual cost (including the actual cost of shipping securely and quickly) or pass on the purchase.

Since you lose both item and money on the INR claims, and get defects as well, why bother offering a service that does you no good and much harm?

Some sales are not worth having.

[t.w.mooner]

I had 100% feedback since 2007 and no negatives. In the last 3 months I received 3 defects lost my Top Seller and  now sit at 99.5% for 1 negative I received from a customer in Brazil who never contacted me at all over a 4.00 item The same day he left my negative he left 7 others.2nd defect is because I canceled a sell as it was to a place I do not ship to and buyer was fine and understood but defect anyways. The 3rd was from another seller on here who purchased shoes which were to be listed at 22.99 new in box with free shipping but I mistakenly had them listed at 2.99 and she bought them within an hour before I noticed mistake and when I refunded I got a defect. I am doing great on the other E site I have been on for 2 years and hope to eventually leave this site with all their crazy rules and forever penalizing honest sellers. I could have avoided 2 of the defects by paying 60.00 plus out of pocket to fulfill the orders but decided I would most likely end up with defects anyways. I have non stop buyers who do not pay when I run auctions which I pretty much stop listing Auction style but they seem to be unaffected for their actions. Finding I do not like even buying on here as much anymore and when I leave here I will spend my money on the other site.

[dipmicro]

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That will not solve your problem.

1) You will find that the cost of running your website and, more importantly, advertising it so potential buyers can find it will cost you as much as you are currently spending on eBay in fees.

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I agree with this, however the upside is not cost savings, but full control and lack of micromanagement. Ebay can make mistake and put sellers out of business without recourse, even though seller has invested non-trivial amounts of time and money to their Ebay business. On own website, the business' sale terms are the rules.

On another note, my understanding defect is black/white so if case was open and resolved or negative feedback was left or not, it cannot get more defective, so once someone opens the unfair case there is no point to sheeply refund like before.

[westcoastart2]

Some very interesting replies are surfacing in this thread.

It is very helpful to hear others are experiencing success on other sites in Canada - its been a year or so since I looked at alternatives, and didn't see anything I'd shop on, so didnt' look further.    I need to reconsider that conclusion.

I'm also very interested in the following comment.

".....unfair case there is no point to sheeply refund like before"

It would be very helpful if someone with a better grasp of the defect issue can give some guidance.

I understand a seller can only get 1 defect from a buyer.

I understand that if a seller want to return an item, the seller gets an automatic defect, regardless of the merit of the buyers reason.

I was under the impression that somehow it is worse for the seller, if you escalate a complaint, and loose.    Am I wrong?    

I can see that the potential for a retaliatory negative feedback increases, but is there any why the defect gets worse.

For example, as a top rated seller, can you have more defects, than lost escalated complaints?

[westcoastart2]

FYI, I have two accounts on ebay, and although I'm logged in as avionsun antiques, the last message was recorded as from my westcoastart2 site (my art site) - its the same person in case it matters to anyone.

[rose-dee]

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@westcoastart2 wrote:

I'm also very interested in the following comment.

".....unfair case there is no point to sheeply refund like before"

It would be very helpful if someone with a better grasp of the defect issue can give some guidance.

I understand a seller can only get 1 defect from a buyer.

I understand that if a seller want to return an item, the seller gets an automatic defect, regardless of the merit of the buyers reason.

I was under the impression that somehow it is worse for the seller, if you escalate a complaint, and loose.    Am I wrong?    

I can see that the potential for a retaliatory negative feedback increases, but is there any why the defect gets worse.

For example, as a top rated seller, can you have more defects, than lost escalated complaints?

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On the upside: Each transaction is counted only once toward your defect rate.   So, for example, a low DSR for "not as described", plus an opened MBG case by a buyer will only count once toward the overall defect rate.  And any escalated cases found in your favour aren't supposed to be counted as a defect. 

Also recall that you have to have "defected" transactions from 8 different buyers (5 for TRS sellers) before the defect rate will affect your status.  

On the downside: Once you get past the allowable minimum 8 buyers (or 5), the way defects are counted can be critical to a seller's performance rating.  For example, because eBay counts closed cases without seller resolution differently from other defects (a permissible rate of only 0.30% for both TRS and non-TRS sellers), whereas defects are allowed at 2% and 5% respectively, you can get into a lot more trouble a lot faster with closed unresolved cases.  So in fact it can be significant whether you get one kind of defect or another. 

Lastly, depending on what you sell and what shipping services you use, it may be easier to rack up defects in some areas than others.  The fraudulent MBG claims are, I think, going to be a new concern.  So are "INAD" claims from resellers who realize they can't make a profit once they've purchased something -- the case you pointed out isn't the first time I've seen this behaviour reported on these boards.  

So, I think the comment that ".....unfair case there is no point to sheeply refund like before" may seem logical, but if you're a TRS and you get close to the allowable 5 defects, it may be quite important whether you refund and avoid an unresolved case, or try to appeal to eBay to fight the INAD claim.  If you lose (and it appears that's quite easy to do nowadays), there isn't much leeway for many more unresolved cases before your seller status is affected.  Of course, that depends on the number of transactions you normally handle.  With a lower volume, it doesn't take many to add up to 0.3%. 

In the end, my issue with the defect programme is that it took seller status out of the hands of sellers' direct control and put it into the hands of a robotic programme (the defect-generator machine that is now eBay), with little room for appeal.  

It used to be that our status depended on buyers' opinions -- DSRs and FB -- OK, that was bad enough, but usually with enough effort sellers could directly impact that area in a positive way.  Now there are so many ways in which defects can be automatically generated, whether or not a buyer is mistaken or a seller corrects an error.  Once upon a time a seller -- a good seller, that is -- could intervene personally with the buyer at some point during the selling process to ensure a buyer ended up happy, whatever it took to do so.  Now it usually doesn't matter what sellers do to try to remedy transaction issues -- once there is an error or mistake, it's permanently a defect. That is my main issue with the defect system.  

EBay says the defect system was based on research concerning what drives buyers away and what brings them back.  Personally, I think that statement is just a smoke screen for a programme that is actually designed to rid eBay of a large sector of independent little sellers, and provide a fully automated selling system for its largest retailers.  It's not a conspiracy theory on my part, just eyes opened.  None of us who are "boutique sellers" should expect any favours anymore from eBay.  You can't argue with robots.