eBay

art-in-the-making · ‎05-22-2015

Does anyone have a particular feeling about this one way or the other?

For example say a buyer buys one item from a seller with BIN and has a bid on another item. Is it cool to just go ahead and end the auction without consulting with the buyer in your opinions?

I'm of two minds.

rose-dee · ‎05-26-2015

@pjcdn2005 wrote:

I suspect that Pierre doesn't have a 'failsafe' method or feels a need to worry about having one so that could be why he doesn't answer your question.

Surely Pierre can speak for himself on this subject. I simply wondered whether he had a monitoring "tip" for those of us who might want to try this, to avoid what to me seem to be obvious risks. Perhaps he doesn't and just accepts any risk involved, in which case I would have stopped pursuing the subject a few posts back.

In any case I can say from my own experience as a buyer that I have been very disappointed -- and rather upset at the seller -- to have bid on an item, only to find out later that the same thing was being offered at BIN. This was a seller with thousands of listings, so it wasn't obvious at first glance that there was a duplication. I only discovered it when I happened to land on another page in her store during a search afterward.

Needless to say, I felt cheated (I actually ended up paying significantly more than the BIN price because there had been some lively bidding). This was before cancellations were available, so I was pretty much stuck with it. I never did return to buy from that seller.

It was just great for the seller -- she got to earn a premium on an item (and probably repeated the exercise later) -- but not a happy feeling for me as buyer, and not something I'd want to do to my own buyers unless I knew I'd be able to catch their bid in time (i.e. before it reached the BIN price).

I'm not sure why this is such a difficult concept to grasp, but I've given up on the subject anyway. Why deliberately do something that may put off even one buyer unless I know I have some control over the situation. What's the point.

pierrelebel · ‎05-26-2015

"to avoid what to me seem to be obvious risks. "

That is the thing. I do not see any risk.

Buyers have twice as many opportunities to see and buy my items. Where is the risk there?

As all stamp dealers know, stamps are not selling like "hot cakes". They often "sit on the shelves for weeks, months, even years before finding a buyer. By duplicating the opportunity for a buyer to find the item, it is a "win win" all around and is allowed by eBay.

By offering the same starting price at auction as I do at fixed price, I see no risk to disappoint any buyer.

Why develop and rely on a "failsafe" plan when none is needed. Life is too short to worry about stuff we should not be worrying about.

tobyshitzu · ‎05-26-2015

years ago i'd do that all the time when I had a quantity of an item, 1 at fp and keep listing auctions. Had no intention of saving the buyers from themselves when they'd frequently pay more, it was a bonus for me. And often an indication raise the price of the fp listing. All kinds of listings are selling on ebay where the buyer could have gotten a better price for the same thing if they looked a bit more

zee-chan · ‎05-26-2015

In this case that rose described, I feel that it's the buyer who should've spent more time checking out the seller's page to see if same item is offered as BIN at the same price. Back then with the promos going on (like, both auction and FP promos at different times of the month) I would list with both auction and FP listings to utilize the promos, but I lower the price of my auction listings by 3% less than my FP listings. Sometimes buyers will bid on it, sometimes buyers buy from FP. 3% is not significant enough to bother me in any way, and I do take Best Offer on my FP too. I don't keep track of what buyers do. Heck I even get the rare buyers who end up buying with the 30% higher BIN on my auction listings... some of them new buyers, some of them not. I shrug and treat myself a coffee and cake with the extra few bucks I get, or make a small donation somewhere, and include some extra gifts for those buyers. I figure if people have time and money to spend shopping on eBay, overpaying a few bucks wouldn't put them in financial crisis anyway lol.

Life is too short to worry about other's actions,especially ones that do not affect me negatively. If the buyer got upset, it's the fault of their own negligence (not checking other listings thoroughly) and if they choose to not buy from me again, that's fine too. If I'm the one who overpaid, then it's my own darn fault for not checking other listings/stores, and well I did agree to buy at the higher price to begin with, so I could only tell myself to be more careful next time.

rose-dee · ‎05-27-2015

@zee-chan wrote:

"Life is too short to worry about other's actions,especially ones that do not affect me negatively. If the buyer got upset, it's the fault of their own negligence (not checking other listings thoroughly) and if they choose to not buy from me again, that's fine too. If I'm the one who overpaid, then it's my own darn fault for not checking other listings/stores, and well I did agree to buy at the higher price to begin with, so I could only tell myself to be more careful next time."

Oh well, I guess I'm outvoted on this subject -- or maybe I'm just being too scrupulous?? I did a lot of buying on eBay before I became a seller, and I suppose I'm considering it primarily from the buyer's perspective. I don't consider it the job of the buyer to avoid the traps I've set, and then blame them if they fall in. That seems to me a counter-productive stance to take.

It's not a question of worrying. It's a question of avoiding doing something that (in my opinion) could upset buyers. I simply don't subscribe to the old adage that "what they don't know (or don't find out) won't hurt them".

While that may be quite true on the face of it, I consider it a somewhat shoddy selling style. It's the same problem I have with sellers who tout "free" shipping when in fact the shipping is rolled into the item price. Sure, there's a sucker born every minute, but I don't want to create suckers for buyers, and I want my buyers to come back because they felt they got a truly fair deal. I feel that fairness and integrity is important. But then I'm old school.

By the way, I do think that if and when this strategy goes wrong (i.e. if the buyer overpays on an auction), it could indeed backfire and negatively affect a seller. As a buyer, I'd be inclined to leave rather scathing FB (= a defect) for a seller who I thought pulled the wool over my eyes so that I overpaid for something that was offered at BIN at a lower price, caveat emptor notwithstanding. Yes, I'd probably kick myself in the pants for not checking, but I might be more inclined to kick the seller in the pants for his cute trick, and would likely not come back. Is that really good business? I suppose most of you think so.

As I said, as long as there is a way to catch the bidder in time, it's fine, and as Pierre says, it's a win-win all around. It's the alternate scenario I'd rather not court. I repeat: there are enough unanticipated and uncontrollable pitfalls on eBay to generate defects, why deliberately do something that has a risk attached to it? Pierre feels there is no risk; I do -- we'll have to agree to disagree on that point.

pjcdn2005 · ‎05-27-2015

Oh well, I guess I'm outvoted on this subject -- or maybe I'm just being too scrupulous?? I did a lot of buying on eBay before I became a seller, and I suppose I'm considering it primarily from the buyer's perspective. I don't consider it the job of the buyer to avoid the traps I've set, and then blame them if they fall in. That seems to me a counter-productive stance to take.

Many of us look at things from a buyer's point of view and many of us are also buyers so you are not unique in that way. I don't see it as a trap and I have the feeling that few would see it that way. The sellers are simply trying to make a sale. If there are 2 separate listings rather than just 1, the chance of a sale is increased. As mentioned earlier, some people search by auction only, some search by fixed price so listing both increases the chances of the buyer seeing the item.

While that may be quite true on the face of it, I consider it a somewhat shoddy selling style. It's the same problem I have with sellers who tout "free" shipping when in fact the shipping is rolled into the item price. Sure, there's a sucker born every minute, but I don't want to create suckers for buyers, and I want my buyers to come back because they felt they got a truly fair deal. I feel that fairness and integrity is important. But then I'm old school.

Wow. I'm fairly sure that many of us here are old school in some ways but perhaps we are more flexible in our thinking and don't assume that anyone who doesn't think exactly the same is a shoddy seller without integrity and is looking for a sucker.

By the way, I do think that if and when this strategy goes wrong (i.e. if the buyer overpays on an auction), it could indeed backfire and negatively affect a seller. As a buyer, I'd be inclined to leave rather scathing FB (= a defect) for a seller who I thought pulled the wool over my eyes so that I overpaid for something that was offered at BIN at a lower price, caveat emptor notwithstanding. Yes, I'd probably kick myself in the pants for not checking, but I might be more inclined to kick the seller in the pants for his cute trick, and would likely not come back. Is that really good business? I suppose most of you think so.

In that situation I might kick myself for not paying more attention but it wouldn't even occur to me that the seller was trying to trick me and I certainly wouldn't leave bad feedback. Since you feel differently I suppose that's proof that there are buyers out there that would think differently but there are always going to be buyers out there who think that someone is out to rip them off even it they aren't.

pierrelebel · ‎05-27-2015

"...we'll have to agree to disagree..."

It is quite natural for posters to disagree on selling and marketing strategies. Posters come from different backgrounds and have different selling experience, online and/or through mail order. Posters who sell (or have sold) for a living may see things differently from those who look at online marketing as a hobby or a mean to get extra money for a few hours of work every week.

Over the years I have accepted that others may have a valid different perspective that will not reconcile with mine. That's OK.

When I look at posters on the eBay discussion boards, I expect most are giving their time generously, using their experience and expertize to share their ideas, suggestions and recommendations to help others with questions, problems, inquiries or requests for more information. Overall, it works pretty good. Not perfect but pretty good.

However, I find it difficult to accept to disagree when I feel I am under attack, quite unfairly I may add. I am here trying to help other sellers. If someone does not like the suggestions, by all means hit the back button. I see no point in constantly using negativity (directly, indirectly or by implication) against other posters.

For example in post #25

"...somewhat shoddy selling style...."

"...same problem I have with sellers who tout "free" shipping when in fact the shipping is rolled into the item price.... there's a sucker born every minute,... "

"...a seller who I thought pulled the wool over my eyes..."

"...Is that really good business? I suppose most of you think so. ..."

As stated above, one can disagree but there is no need, in my opinion, for that negativity. And I suspect much of the disagreement comes from a lack of understanding someone else's business.

femmefan1946 · ‎05-27-2015

There is a benefit to buying at auction.

You may get the item lower than the market price.

You have the thrill of beating out some other bidder.

There is a benefit to buying a Fixed Price.

You don't have to wait for the auction to end.

You know what you will be paying.

Two different mindsets.

Not every customers Searches and compares listings.

If the customer tells the seller she is upset, the seller can be generous and sell for the lower price, since he will be making money on that too.

Well, maybe I'm not a fancy gentleman like you, with your... very fine hat. But I do business. We're here for business.-- Captain Malcolm Reynolds.

rose-dee · ‎05-28-2015

@pierrelebel wrote:

However, I find it difficult to accept to disagree when I feel I am under attack, quite unfairly I may add. I am here trying to help other sellers. If someone does not like the suggestions, by all means hit the back button. I see no point in constantly using negativity (directly, indirectly or by implication) against other posters.

As stated above, one can disagree but there is no need, in my opinion, for that negativity. And I suspect much of the disagreement comes from a lack of understanding someone else's business.

Absolutely none of my comments to 'zee-chan's' post were in any way directed at you, and I apologize if you thought they were. I think you may be over-reacting.

My remarks were not an "attack" on you (or anybody in particular, for that matter), and were certainly not negativity -- they were my opinion concerning sellers who are happy about buyers inadvertently overpaying and who continue to deliberately follow such practices (what I call "false deals"). We've all seen them on eBay.

I would point out "eBay Deals" as one culprit -- many of the items advertised there can be had at much lower retail prices elsewhere, even though they are touted as being "70% off" (or whatever the percentage of the day may be). And perhaps some buyers have been caught and learned after the fact that they were burned to one extent or another.

Your own procedure is completely exempt from such criticism (as I said before) because you have obviously found a way to make the strategy work by catching bids on auction items in time to be able to sell the item to your buyers at the same price as the duplicate BIN item. I'm not sure how you do that, but you make it work, and (I'll repeat) it's a win for both buyer and seller.

No, my comments were solely in response to the suggestion by 'zee-chan' that buyers have only themselves to blame if they overpay for an item, but more importantly -- that there is no responsibility on the part of sellers who deliberately use strategies to pull the wool over buyers' eyes, and no possible repercussions.

I simply disagree with that precept, and I fully understand this does not apply to you. Yes, caveat emptor always stands, but my point was that a truly happy buyer is a buyer who will return, period. I don't see the purpose in making the buyer do all the work and then blaming them if they go wrong. I prefer to help my buyers find what they want at a fair price, without trickery.

I spent many years in the service industry, where, believe me, the customer is even more right than in the retail world. I also spent time running a B&M shop, where, as I'm sure you know, competition is ruthless and costs high. Every effort to make customers happy and bring them back may not be rewarded, but every bad customer experience risks criticism getting around by word of mouth.

Here on eBay, word of mouth is replaced by FB (and defects where things go wrong). I am merely of the opinion (like you, I'm sure) that it's better to work on the positive side of the equation and send buyers away knowing they got fairly treated by the seller.

I'm not sure why expressing my point of view here has aroused such fierce "ganging up". Is everybody having a really bad week?

rose-dee · ‎05-28-2015

@femmefan1946 wrote:

"If the customer tells the seller she is upset, the seller can be generous and sell for the lower price, since he will be making money on that too."

This is the first useful solution that's been made here on this question (i.e. how to work around any risk that a buyer may be upset for paying higher at auction for the same item listed elsewhere at BIN). Thank you, this makes sense and sounds workable.

Which was my whole purpose in joining in this discussion, i.e. to find a practical means of making the buyer completely happy in such circumstances.

If you come back to this board, could you explain what steps you'd take to do this -- provide the buyer with a partial refund perhaps? Is it possible to reverse (i.e. cancel) the transaction on an auction and re-list the item at BIN at the desired price? I suppose a seller could even add a discount to the final invoice (rather than refunding)? I haven't ever had to do this because I rarely sell at auction.

zee-chan · ‎05-28-2015

--No, my comments were solely in response to the suggestion by 'zee-chan' that buyers have only themselves to blame if they overpay for an item, but more importantly -- that there is no responsibility on the part of sellers who deliberately use strategies to pull the wool over buyers' eyes, and no possible repercussions. --

??? What strategy ??? I don't point a gun at my buyers' head to tell them to click the 30% BIN. I don't tell my buyers to enter bid war. The said functions are free with auction listings, so I use them. Getting sales with either cases are rare with my books. I get less than 5 buyers like that per year. I use free shipping to keep the math simple and straightforward. How does that make me shoddy, or trying to pull wool over my buyers' eyes??? Please stop over generalizing and labelling other sellers with your conspiracy theories. I'm not a big fan of them.

PS. I do have a good number of return buyers. I also get over 70% of buyers leaving me positive feedback. The ones that didn't are people who don't tend to leave feedback to begin with. I do believe that I'm a good seller.

zee-chan · ‎05-28-2015

Just to add to the above as I ran out of time to edit:

Buyers should be doing their own homework before committing to buy. Just like how you said those EBay deals aren't really deals, buyers need to do their own research with their own time and find out where's the best deal. Think of it as time spent to save money. If one doesn't spend the time, then it's not the seller's fault that the buyer overpaid. Sellers CANNOT force buyers to buy. Let's say you bought a laptop from a local retailer today because you felt $500 was the right price. Then you found the same laptop at a different retailer for $480 the next day. (Assuming there is a no price beat policy) Is it the first retailer's fault that you overpaid $20? I don't think so. That's what I meant by that buyers are responsible in making their purchase decisions.

pierrelebel · ‎05-28-2015

Again this morning (just a few minutes ago) a buyer placed a bid ($29) for an item offered at auction. The same item is available (in large quantity) at fixed price (BIN) from my eBay store at the same $29.

What to do? Easy. End the listing with a sale to that bidder and immediately relist the item at auction (10 days for maximum exposure) at the same $29.

Everybody is happy! I am happy with the sale. The buyer is happy to get a quality item at a fair price, eBay is happy they get the fees, PayPal is happy as they also get a fee.

I will not waste any time trying to figure out what could have gone wrong. My marketing system works. And yes I offer "free shipping" and there is nothing wrong or shabby about it. That is what my buyers want and if my competitors refuse to do it - that's their choice. As we all know by now, the majority of all listings (more than 50%) on eBay offer "free shipping". Why fight the trend?

rose-dee · ‎05-28-2015

I think everybody is getting over-excited here. I'll say this again, and then I have other things to do today.

My concern applies to a very narrow and particular situation, and to that situation only: that is, where a seller offers exact duplicates of items at the same time, one (or more) at BIN and one (or more) at auction, starting at the same price as the BIN items, and there is a possibility of buyers over-paying on the auction duplicates.

It has nothing to do with sellers offering similar (but not identical) items at auction and BIN at the same or different times, or duplicate items where the final bid equals the price of the BIN items, or dissimilar items at the same time, or similar items by different buyers. In these instances I agree that "shop around for the best deal" is the buyer's responsibility.

Now Pierre has obviously worked out a way to make this a happy ending for both his buyer and himself, although I'm still not sure how he does the monitoring of bids in time -- but apparently he does. And 'femmefan' suggested a means of resolving the potential irritation to the buyer who finds out she could have purchased the identical item at the same time, but got into a bidding contest and overpaid.

So, once again, I think it's shoddy practice (or perhaps I should say foolish practice) to offer two identical items at the same time, at auction and at BIN, unless the seller has devised a means of levelling the outcome for the bidding buyer, if that buyer has overpaid.

I stand by my earlier opinion that a seller who uses this strategy (listing identical items at BIN and at auction at the same time, starting at the same price) hoping that buyers might overbid and overpay on the auction items, is not only hoodwinking buyers but also risking potentially neutral or negative FB (=defect). The risk, as I see it, is greater the larger the number of listings a seller has, because the buyer will be less likely to notice in time to choose the BIN item. I'm not sure why my concern about this is so difficult to understand.

Of course I "get" the argument that BIN + auction listings will appeal to a larger buyer base; that's clear. What I don't accept is that there are sellers who would prefer to simply sit by and do nothing after the fact but collect the extra money. In my books that's not cricket.

The problem still remains of what to do if there are two or more bidders who have bid beyond the equivalent BIN price if you want to be fair to both -- cancel the transaction entirely, give the high bidder the item at the BIN price, and direct the lower bidder(s) to the BIN items? That seems a rather messy solution that I'd rather not have to deal with.

tobyshitzu · ‎05-28-2015

"The problem still remains of what to do if there are two or more bidders who have bid beyond the equivalent BIN price"

Its not a problem, its an opportunity to second chance all the underbidders and sell even more if you have quanitity

rose-dee · ‎05-28-2015

@pierrelebel wrote:
Again this morning (just a few minutes ago) a buyer placed a bid ($29) for an item offered at auction. The same item is available (in large quantity) at fixed price (BIN) from my eBay store at the same $29.

What to do? Easy. End the listing with a sale to that bidder and immediately relist the item at auction (10 days for maximum exposure) at the same $29.

For some reason, everybody (except 'femmefan') seems to have been missing my point.

What you've described is all very well if you notice the bid in time to end the listing. As I've said, you obviously have worked out at a way to do that.

The question for me is: how to catch this in time? What if I wake up the next morning and overnight there have been two bids or more, over the original BIN price? I suppose I should ask if you've ever had to handle that situation, or what you would suggest. 'Femmefan' hinted at it, but I think a seller needs to know in advance what steps to take before listing identical items in this way if they care about buyer satisfaction.

When I do list items at auction (which has been less often these days), I frequently have more than one bid. I can't always be monitoring my eBay store all day every day to watch for bids. Maybe that's the difference -- I'm often busy with other things, like custom orders, that take me away from the computer for hours on end.

rose-dee · ‎05-28-2015

@toby**bleep**zu wrote:
"The problem still remains of what to do if there are two or more bidders who have bid beyond the equivalent BIN price"

Its not a problem, its an opportunity to second chance all the underbidders and sell even more if you have quanitity

OK, that's a practical possibility. But what do you do with the winning bidder then? Partial refund, cancel the transaction, apply a discount on the invoice to bring the sale price down to the equivalent BIN price?

I really have to go now. I'll check back later to see if there are any concrete suggestions, because I have stock that would work well with this method of listing, and I'd like to give it a try -- but not if I'm risking making buyers unhappy. I've worked too hard for my current seller status.