Has anyone ever won a chargeback dispute when there was no delivery confirmation?

[jt-libra]

I just spent over an hour responding to a chargeback -- my comments plus preparing documentation in PDF format and attaching it to my response (most of you have been there I'm sure).

I have everything but the delivery confirmation.  It was a lettermail item shipped to another province.  I have the note I sent her, through the eBay messaging system, confirming the purchase, advising when the item would be shipped and when she could expect delivery.  I also have her positive feedback which is identical to other feedback she has left for her purchases.

I can understand a chargeback if an item was not received or grossly misrepresented.  The one that really gets to me is the "unauthorized use of credit card".  I always suspect that it is either buyer's remorse, or a daughter purchasing something without her mother's consent. (One case I had a few years ago was a woman who filed a chargeback because she and her husband were divorcing and he decided he wanted to keep the item and refused to give it to her.  She admitted this in her e-mail to me, but of course I still lost).

I had occasion to file a chargeback a couple of years ago when I did not receive an item (this was done directly and not through PayPal).  I had all sorts of forms to fill out, with correspondence back and forth, and at least 3 months for resolution.  Yet it seems so easy with PayPal, doesn't it, even when there is reasonable evidence provided by the seller.

[jt-libra]

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katlover1952 wrote:

I asked if I should contact the buyer to see what was going on and they said yes I should. Likely won't hear from them but did send an email.

_________________________________

Please let us know if you get a response.  I've had no luck with that.  Wait, that's not true .... one buyer told me to take a hike, but in less polite terms.

[quality-cellular]

On August 23rd, I received an Email from Paypal:

"We are writing to let you know that one of your buyers opened a chargeback with their card issuer. The buyer stated that they did not authorize this purchase."

Item was sent by lettermail with no tracking. Sending with tracking costs 6 times as much to ship!

The buyer even left the following Positive feedback:  "Perfect Product Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1"

I took a screenshot of the feedback the buyer left. Included a link to the "Feedback left for others" for that buyer.

I mentioned that the package was sent by lettermail without a tracking number. The feedback that the buyer left shows proof that the item was delivered and the buyer was happy with it.

I also sent a screenshot of both the Paypal and Ebay Emails which clearly shows that the same person owns both accounts.

I thought for sure that I would win that one. Mainly because the buyer left feedback and the Ebay and Paypal accounts belong to the same person. That is pretty good evidence IMO. If it wasn't for the feedback comment, I'd have no way of proving that the buyer received it.

That dragged on for 2 and a half months. It took Paypal almost a month to review it and then decide in the buyers favour. Then Paypal appealed the chargeback directly to the credit card company. Then on November 7th, I received the following Email from Paypal:

"The credit card issuer decided the chargeback in the buyer's favor as the buyer met the card issuer's requirements.

Although we cannot dispute this transaction any further, we encourage you to contact your buyer directly to reach a resolution."

I wish you luck, but your chances are slim. Hopefully you have a more competent Paypal employee review your case than the idiot that reviewed mine.

[katlover1952]

We'll got a nice email from Paypal after my call & email to them seller protection only applies when you use tracked & have confirmation of delivery. What a lot of bull! Some protection. They told me I should check into all the tracked shipping options - guess I will have to sell more expensive items so the tracked shipping option is more palatable. On another note the buyer did call me & tell me she had been in touch with Paypal. Something about her bank acct being hacked although could not quite figure out how that affected her credit card. She said that Paypal had said I'd get my money but I'm not holding my breath.
This whole thing is so unfair - makes me mad but you seem pretty much helpless . We trust Paypal to handle our transactions, they make money off of us then turn around & dump on us.

[38e_avenue]

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@gifts_of_elegance wrote:

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A label printed through PayPal is not proof of anything, except that you bought a label.  Doesn't mean you mailed it.

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As I mentioned above, I WON the case and got my money back. I sent a Light Packet, with no tracking. The shipping label was my ONLY proof.

[jt-libra]

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@quality-cellular wrote:

I thought for sure that I would win that one. Mainly because the buyer left feedback and the Ebay and Paypal accounts belong to the same person. That is pretty good evidence IMO. If it wasn't for the feedback comment, I'd have no way of proving that the buyer received it.

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I know what you're saying.  The first time I had a chargeback and provided the same documents that you said you did, I thought how could they overlook all this evidence just because I didn't have proof of delivery.  Well they did -- and they do it every time.  With one chargeback, I even forwarded them the e-mail I got from the buyer stating that I should stop bothering her -- that her husband had the item and wouldn't give it to her after they separated so she wanted her money back and didn't care who had to give it to her.  Seriously!   I don't think PayPal even reads any of the documentation we send them -- they look for the proof of delivery; it it's not there, case closed.

[jt-libra]

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@katlover1952 wrote:

We'll got a nice email from Paypal after my call & email to them seller protection only applies when you use tracked & have confirmation of delivery. What a lot of bull! Some protection. They told me I should check into all the tracked shipping options - guess I will have to sell more expensive items so the tracked shipping option is more palatable. On another note the buyer did call me & tell me she had been in touch with Paypal. Something about her bank acct being hacked although could not quite figure out how that affected her credit card. She said that Paypal had said I'd get my money but I'm not holding my breath.
This whole thing is so unfair - makes me mad but you seem pretty much helpless . We trust Paypal to handle our transactions, they make money off of us then turn around & dump on us.

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Well, the buyer called you -- not many do.  I've heard the bank account being hacked story as well -- it didn't make sense to me either.  I didn't win that case but I really hope you do.  It would be nice to see one seller win.

[gifts_of_elegance]

Did I tell you I also had a "not authorized transaction" where the purchaser has left me positive feedback?

I just received an email from PayPal that I  lost and tacked on a $20 fee.

I have written the purchaser and he did not answer.

Today he got another letter from me.

Next,  he will receive a letter from someone with a bit more authority.

[katlover1952]

Further update - buyer actually contacted me immediately by email and then followed up saying she had contacted Paypal and told them the situation and that they would be giving me my money. Said she even had the name and ID of the Paypal rep. So thought I would follow up on it and when I looked at the case it still showed outstanding. I phoned them and they couldn't find any record of it & I was talking to the correct centre (Arizona). When I gave them the name (it was first name only) they said there was no way to transfer a call directly to a specific person anyway.  Told me that it would be 24 hours before there was any notice of emails received re the claim getting posted to it. I am thoroughly frustrated with this whole thing. If there was any way to avoid using Paypal I would. They certainly don't do anything to assist the sellers. From reading this post even if you use tracked packet you can have issues and their guarantee is no good. Thank heavens this is a very small amount because I don't think that I am going to get this resolved although the buyer certainly seems to be willing to co-operate so can always hope. Living in perpetual hope LOL! This will be my final rant but will post if I get it resolved to let everyone know what happened as it certainly seems to be an issue for others as well.

[jt-libra]

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@gifts_of_elegance wrote:

Did I tell you I also had a "not authorized transaction" where the purchaser has left me positive feedback?

I just received an email from PayPal that I  lost and tacked on a $20 fee.

I have written the purchaser and he did not answer.

Today he got another letter from me.

Next,  he will receive a letter from someone with a bit more authority.

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What was the $20 fee for?  I've never heard of that.

[jt-libra]

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@katlover1952 wrote:

Further update - buyer actually contacted me immediately by email and then followed up saying she had contacted Paypal and told them the situation and that they would be giving me my money. Said she even had the name and ID of the Paypal rep. So thought I would follow up on it and when I looked at the case it still showed outstanding. I phoned them and they couldn't find any record of it & I was talking to the correct centre (Arizona). When I gave them the name (it was first name only) they said there was no way to transfer a call directly to a specific person anyway.  Told me that it would be 24 hours before there was any notice of emails received re the claim getting posted to it. I am thoroughly frustrated with this whole thing. If there was any way to avoid using Paypal I would. They certainly don't do anything to assist the sellers. From reading this post even if you use tracked packet you can have issues and their guarantee is no good. Thank heavens this is a very small amount because I don't think that I am going to get this resolved although the buyer certainly seems to be willing to co-operate so can always hope. Living in perpetual hope LOL! This will be my final rant but will post if I get it resolved to let everyone know what happened as it certainly seems to be an issue for others as well.

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Good luck!  It's nice that you have a co-operative buyer.

[pjcdn2005]

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@gifts_of_elegance wrote:

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@pjcdn2005 wrote:

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@gifts_of_elegance wrote:

I have an "item not received" claim.  Purchaser was denied a refund because I have tracking number with confirmed delivery.  She  then went to  her credit card company and filed a claim there for "non receipt".  Now my funds are still being held.  She also gave me negative feedback in which she mentions the PayPal claim which I thought was basis for removal.   I complained but the negative is still there.  

This has been going on for months.  Obviously a confirmed tracking number means nothing.

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Did she win the chargeback for non receipt?

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First time around, yes!  But now that the credit card company stepped in, they have taken back the payment from me and is still being held.  Isn't this when Seller protection should kick in?

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I'm sure they are just holding your funds temporarily. If you have del confirmation for an inr you should win regardless if it is a chargeback or an inr dispute through ebay or paypal. 

[pjcdn2005]

Correct. For an inr the seller needs to show online delivery confirmation. For an unauthorized use chargeback they only need proof of shipment.

[pjcdn2005]

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@38e_avenue wrote:

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@gifts_of_elegance wrote:

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A label printed through PayPal is not proof of anything, except that you bought a label.  Doesn't mean you mailed it.

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As I mentioned above, I WON the case and got my money back. I sent a Light Packet, with no tracking. The shipping label was my ONLY proof.

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It's unusual that you won. As gifts mentioned, ebay and paypal normally do not consider  printing a label as proof of shipment. There has to be proof that the item was actually mailed. It must have been your lucky week. 🙂

[femmefan1946]

Since it would be foolish to charge $15 for tracked shipping of a $10 item, let's talk about how not to lose money on claims.

Cookie Jar Insurance.

It's that easy.

CJI just means that on low value items you add a few pennies to your charges to cover the occasional loss or damage claim.

You toss those virtual pennies into a virtual cookie jar.

The jar is now your insurance fund.

And ship with relatively cheap untracked mail.

If you get a claim, you pay out.

Yes, you may be fuming and convinced the buyer is a scammer. So what? Why waste your energy on her?

Remember that if time is money, money is also time. I keep posting that your time is worth 17 cents a minute, which is the minimum wage in Ontario.

So you take the money out of the Cookie Jar, you pay the (@#$%<>) buyer and Block her.

And move on.

It's business not personal.

And I know it is hard to be happy about scammers. I think we are all women here, and we take these situations more personally than the guys. (But with less public swearing and threats of revenge. Ahh testosterone!)  But we all are wearing our big girl panties.

[jt-libra]

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@femmefan1946 wrote:

Since it would be foolish to charge $15 for tracked shipping of a $10 item, let's talk about how not to lose money on claims.

Cookie Jar Insurance.

It's that easy.

CJI just means that on low value items you add a few pennies to your charges to cover the occasional loss or damage claim.

You toss those virtual pennies into a virtual cookie jar.

The jar is now your insurance fund.

And ship with relatively cheap untracked mail.

If you get a claim, you pay out.

Yes, you may be fuming and convinced the buyer is a scammer. So what? Why waste your energy on her?

Remember that if time is money, money is also time. I keep posting that your time is worth 17 cents a minute, which is the minimum wage in Ontario.

So you take the money out of the Cookie Jar, you pay the (@#$%<>) buyer and Block her.

And move on.

It's business not personal.

And I know it is hard to be happy about scammers. I think we are all women here, and we take these situations more personally than the guys. (But with less public swearing and threats of revenge. Ahh testosterone!)  But we all are wearing our big girl panties.

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I know you are an advocate of "cookie jar insurance", femme and, for some, this probably works very well.  You absorb losses by dipping into your virtual cookie jar and move on, with no stress experienced.  Unfortunately, this does not work for me (or others, I'm sure)

I don't have a few cents to take out of (or add on to) the shipping charge.  I subsidize shipping on every single item I sell.  For lettermail, a dollar or so, and for expedited parcels, $3 to $4, on top of the 10% that eBay takes.  If I didn't do this, I truly would not sell much.  I can't fold it into the selling price because a lot of people do not look at the combined cost of the item plus shipping.  They see the price of the item only, compare it to my competitors and, if it's higher, they move on, even if my shipping is $3.95 and the competitor's is $8.95.  So I price competitively and subsidize shipping.

That's the problem, I suppose, with selling lower-priced items and items for which there are thousands and thousands of listings. Some people might switch to a different product which might be more profitable, but I sell what I know.  My average price is probably $15 to $20.  When I do sell $35 or $50 items, the exchange does help to cover the shipping cost.  But that's only because the exchange is in our favour now -- for years, I was losing more.  But I am making a small profit, so I continue.

I know there are posters who have indicated that they also subsidize shipping so, when there are claims against us, it's money straight out of our pockets, not the "cookie jar".  That's why we stress about it and end up venting on this board.

[dipmicro]

I have a doubt about "winning" claim without tracking. Most likely it was complimentary refund, which means that it was a small amount and PayPal has refunded both buyer and seller to save themselves cost of mediation.

In the past we have had unauthorized chargeback then reversed half a year later because the buyer's bank has caught them abusing chargeback system and reversed all of them.

Personally I find "unauthorized use" becoming liability of the seller a big scam of banking system. A seller has zero control and buyer has allmost all the control of the security of their credit card. If you don't lock your gun and your kid blows their brains, you are liable. But if someone fails preventing their kid use credit card, seller is somehow liable. It makes zero sense.

[38e_avenue]

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@dipmicro wrote:

I have a doubt about "winning" claim without tracking. Most likely it was complimentary refund, which means that it was a small amount and PayPal has refunded both buyer and seller to save themselves cost of mediation.

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No, not a complimentary refund. Here are the details:

Resolution of case involving PayPal transaction: Case ID #XXX-XXX-XXX-XXX

Hello XXX.XXX,

We have completed our investigation of the transaction below and were
unable to find evidence of unauthorized access to the buyer’s account. This
case was denied to the buyer and no funds were recovered from your account.

Buyer's name: XXX XXX
Buyer's email: XXX XXX
Transaction ID: XXX-XXX-XXX
Transaction date: XX-XX
Transaction amount: $XX.XXUSD
Your transaction ID: XXXXXXXXX
Case number: XXX-XXX-XXX-XXX

Thanks for your cooperation through this process. We are continuing to work
to ensure that PayPal is secure for all users.

Sincerely,

PayPal
Protection Services Department

[femmefan1946]

JT -- you are absolutely right -- there are some instances where Cookie Jar Insurance does not work.

But you should realize that when you say you are 'subsidizing' your buyer's postage costs, you are really just charging less for your items than your competitors.

That's fine as long as you are still profitable, but we all have to keep a close eye on the bottom line. Personally, I'd rather lose a few sales than lose money on a transaction.

Not that it always works out that way. Sigh.

[katlover1952]

I said I was done with my rant on this subject but just had to add one more post. After receiving an email from Paypal on Nov 22nd telling me that my chargeback did not qualify for sellers protection as I had not used tracked shipping and advising me of all the tracked shipping methods - I got another email today from Paypal (actually got the same mail twice about 4 minutes apart) advising me that the transaction was covered under Seller Protection as I met the Paypal Seller Requirements. I was a little uncertain about the conflicting messages but I went to my Paypal account and there are no open cases so guess they did clear it up.  Just wanted to advise everyone what happened so guess sometimes it does work in the sellers favor although I have a feeling the buyer may have gotten the chargeback reversed. Just the same it worked out for me but I know some of your were not as fortunate - have to wonder if it is the person who handles it at Paypal.

[momcqueen]

Is it not the most frustrating thing imaginable to be on the receiving end of multiple, conflicting form-letter emails from paypal? I had one incident with paypal that made me so hot I was prepared to throw in the towel entirely. They made me file a POLICE report and then demanded a copy of said police report within 10 business days or the case would automatically close in the favour of the other party. The police in my jurisdiction require six to eight WEEKS to turn-around police reports for matters to them which amount to nothing more than petty theft. (Not to mention various bureaucratic privacy waivers and a hefty administrative fee to do it.) I dutifully trotted off to file my report and then requested a copy of the report filed as well as all the other things I was told I had to do and explained this at great length in messages to paypal and in direct contact over the phone where I was finally told I would be granted what amounted to an extension for extenuating circumstances and THEN I got a message saying, you snooze, you loose, the case is closed. At which point I wrote back with the most scathing email message of my entire life and, finally, someone appeared to read it and understand what had been done. I don't think our pals at paypal understand fully how much their credibility suffers when these things slip through the cracks. It's about trust. Without trust, there is nothing. Too much of the process appears to be automated without human supervision intervention.