Has anyone ever won a chargeback dispute when there was no delivery confirmation?

[jt-libra]

I just spent over an hour responding to a chargeback -- my comments plus preparing documentation in PDF format and attaching it to my response (most of you have been there I'm sure).

I have everything but the delivery confirmation.  It was a lettermail item shipped to another province.  I have the note I sent her, through the eBay messaging system, confirming the purchase, advising when the item would be shipped and when she could expect delivery.  I also have her positive feedback which is identical to other feedback she has left for her purchases.

I can understand a chargeback if an item was not received or grossly misrepresented.  The one that really gets to me is the "unauthorized use of credit card".  I always suspect that it is either buyer's remorse, or a daughter purchasing something without her mother's consent. (One case I had a few years ago was a woman who filed a chargeback because she and her husband were divorcing and he decided he wanted to keep the item and refused to give it to her.  She admitted this in her e-mail to me, but of course I still lost).

I had occasion to file a chargeback a couple of years ago when I did not receive an item (this was done directly and not through PayPal).  I had all sorts of forms to fill out, with correspondence back and forth, and at least 3 months for resolution.  Yet it seems so easy with PayPal, doesn't it, even when there is reasonable evidence provided by the seller.

[pjcdn2005]

---

@jt-libra wrote:

---

@gifts_of_elegance wrote:

Did I tell you I also had a "not authorized transaction" where the purchaser has left me positive feedback?

I just received an email from PayPal that I  lost and tacked on a $20 fee.

I have written the purchaser and he did not answer.

Today he got another letter from me.

Next,  he will receive a letter from someone with a bit more authority.

---

What was the $20 fee for?  I've never heard of that.

---

I don't know if anyone answered your question about the $20 fee. If when the case opens you 'take responsibility' and refund the buyer right away, there is no fee. If Paypal has to investigate and you lose, there is a fee.

That's how I understand it to work although someone else may be able to add on to or clarify that.

[jt-libra]

---

@pjcdn2005 wrote:

---

@jt-libra wrote:

What was the $20 fee for?  I've never heard of that.

---

I don't know if anyone answered your question about the $20 fee. If when the case opens you 'take responsibility' and refund the buyer right away, there is no fee. If Paypal has to investigate and you lose, there is a fee.

That's how I understand it to work although someone else may be able to add on to or clarify that.

---

Thanks pj -- that's interesting.  To date, whenever buyers have not received their items, they've contacted me directly and I've refunded immediately.  I've never had them open a claim with PayPal first.  But, with a chargeback (the few that I've had), I've waited for the "review" by PayPal.  I've always lost but, so far, have never been charged a fee.  Hopefully that hasn't changed.

[gifts_of_elegance]

---

@pjcdn2005 wrote:

---

@jt-libra wrote:

---

---

What was the $20 fee for?  I've never heard of that.

---

I don't know if anyone answered your question about the $20 fee. If when the case opens you 'take responsibility' and refund the buyer right away, there is no fee. If Paypal has to investigate and you lose, there is a fee.

That's how I understand it to work although someone else may be able to add on to or clarify that.

---

No, nobody explained the $20 fee to me.  I guess its another "let's get some more money from the seller"  tactic.  I have protested the charge and also the fact that I am not protected in any way,  Isn't it PayPal's responsibility to verify the credit card?  Several years ago I was hit with another charge back for "not authorized".  I called the purchaser.  A woman without a job who just decided to get some goodies on her credit card that she could not pay for.  "Not authorized" was her solution and she had no intention of returning anything.  She took a lot of sellers and she was upset that I did not feel sorry for her.  In my frustration I uttered two words:  "D%*n You" and she freaked out completely.  She could hardly breath that I would say that to her.  She sent back the item because she did  not want any reminder of me saying that to her.  I guess she was a true Christian. 

[pierrelebel]

For confirmation of the $20 fee charged by PayPal for chargeback, please take a look at (near bottom):

https://www.paypal.com/ca/webapps/mpp/merchant-fees

Chargeback Fee

$20

[jt-libra]

---

@pierrelebel wrote:

For confirmation of the $20 fee charged by PayPal for chargeback, please take a look at (near bottom):

https://www.paypal.com/ca/webapps/mpp/merchant-fees

Chargeback Fee

$20

---

Now I'm even more ticked off.  I was not charged for previous chargebacks.

Thanks Pierre.

[pierrelebel]

" I was not charged for previous chargebacks."

I think it may depend how the "chargeback" was initiated by the buyer.

Was it initiated by an eBay buyer using the eBay or PayPal protection programs...

or... a chargeback though a credit card issuer (at a later date)

[jt-libra]

---

@pierrelebel wrote:

" I was not charged for previous chargebacks."

I think it may depend how the "chargeback" was initiated by the buyer.

Was it initiated by an eBay buyer using the eBay or PayPal protection programs...

or... a chargeback though a credit card issuer (at a later date)

---

You've raised a good point.  The chargebacks that I received, prior to this one, were filed quite some time after the purchase and it never occurred to me that there would be a difference between the two circumstances.  But I guess if they were through the credit card issuer, there would be no need for a review by PayPal and, thus, no fee.

Oh well, I guess it doesn't matter what business you're in -- there are always going to be fraudsters and thieves.  This is the same, I suppose, as the person walking into my store and stealing a $50 bottle of perfume.

[lady.stark]

---

@gifts_of_elegance wrote:

A few years ago I got a charge back from another purchaser for "unauthorized payment."  I sent copies of all  correspondence.

Then the purchaser "remembered" the authorization and changed his claim to "not as described".  No  problem, was told to return item and refund will be issued.  Then he changed his claim to "Item Not Received".  eBay in their infinite wisdom ruled in his favor.  I lost.

---

I think I am missing something, because an Item Not Received can be changed to Not As Described. But the other way around is not possible...

[tobyshitzu]

when paypal says chargeback that is when the buyer gets their credit card to reverse the charge, and that is what paypal has a fee for.  Disputes filed with ebay/paypal are not chargebacks

[jt-libra]

---

@toby**bleep**zu wrote:

when paypal says chargeback that is when the buyer gets their credit card to reverse the charge, and that is what paypal has a fee for.  Disputes filed with ebay/paypal are not chargebacks

---

Okay, now I'm confused.  My message read:

"We are writing to let you know that one of your buyers opened a chargeback with their card issuer. "

That is the way all mine have been worded in the past.  And, like I said, I have never been charged.

[atxpoint1]

It's not exactly the same. These people are committing fraud, not theft. (Well, possibly both.) With theft, if you have clear evidence, they will be charged and you will be either given back the stolen items or covered by insurance. With the kind of fraud these people are carrying out, it seems that evidence is ignored and sellers are not compensated.

[pjcdn2005]

That is the way all mine have been worded in the past.  And, like I said, I have never been charged.

You're lucky then as I was charged on the one time that I let Paypal investigate it. The other times I just refunded if I did not have delivery confirmation.

[jt-libra]

---

@pjcdn2005 wrote:

That is the way all mine have been worded in the past.  And, like I said, I have never been charged.

You're lucky then as I was charged on the one time that I let Paypal investigate it. The other times I just refunded if I did not have delivery confirmation.

---

Once a chargeback is initiated by the buyer, I don't think the seller can refund and close the chargeback from their end.  Maybe I'm wrong.  If the seller contacts me to tell me that an item wasn't received and a reasonable length of time has passed, I'll refund. No one has ever contacted me directly to say that someone used their credit card without authorization.  If they did, I would tell them to contact their credit card provider.  So, with a chargeback, I think it has to go through the system.

[pjcdn2005]

I haven't had a chargeback in a while but as I said, when Paypal notified me that there was an unauthorized chargeback and asked for my reponse I refunded right away as I knew that I couldn't prove the item had been shipped. I didn't wait for Paypal to make a decision. Once I refunded, Paypal closed the chargeback claim. I don't remember if that was done immediately or if it took a couple of days.

[jt-libra]

You know, even if I am charged a $20 fee, I'm going to make the buyer wait as long as necessary to get her money back.

In the past, when people have contacted me about an INR, I always refund quickly and professionally.  In fact, posters on this board have accused me of refunding too quickly.  If an item is estimated to arrive in, say 10 business days, some sellers say that they ask the buyer to wait another ten days.  I don't do that.  But, in this case, the buyer has so ticked me off, I'm not going to pay right away.  I suppose I'll get a defect either way.

[rose-dee]

---

@pjcdn2005 wrote:

I haven't had a chargeback in a while but as I said, when Paypal notified me that there was an unauthorized chargeback and asked for my reponse I refunded right away as I knew that I couldn't prove the item had been shipped.

_____________________________________________________________________________________

This brings up the question of what would actually constitute proof of shipment.  I haven't (thank goodness) yet had to deal with a chargeback, but every time I ship without tracking, I get my local postal clerk to stamp a copy of my Paypal label (Small/Light Packet) with their date received stamp.  Would that be sufficient in these cases? 

To add further to the comments by 'jt' and 'femmefan', with regard to "cookie jar insurance", although I agree that in principle it can help offset the occasional loss, I think it works well if your volume is fairly steady and your average sale price fairly low.  In my situation, I'd personally rather lose money (not lose all profit mind you, but forfeit a small portion of it) in order to make a sale, rather than losing sales because my prices appear too high.  

For that reason, rolling shipping into item pricing doesn't work for me either -- as 'jt' pointed out, all that would do is cause me to lose buyers.  In fact, even competitive pricing (and by "competitive" I'm referring to U.S. competitors) with free shipping, subsidized by me, doesn't seem to have made a great deal of difference lately.  

Getting back to the subject at hand, I do feel for 'jt's frustration with this chargeback issue.  It's difficult enough at the moment to make a sale without ending up being on the hook for someone else's problems (or for fraud or outright theft), and to have to pay a $20 fee for the privilege of being held responsible, and to possibly end up with a defect after all that.  I don't blame 'jt' and the others for being outraged.  As one poster said, it does seem like a very easy rip-off for the banks, including Paypal.  

[jt-libra]

"I haven't (thank goodness) yet had to deal with a chargeback, but every time I ship without tracking, I get my local postal clerk to stamp a copy of my Paypal label (Small/Light Packet) with their date received stamp.  Would that be sufficient in these cases?"

I appreciate all your comments rose-dee.

You raised an interesting point about whether a copy of the PayPal label, date stamped by the Post Office, would constitute proof of shipment.  It never even occurred to me to do that.  I rather think that PayPal would not accept this as proof (of shipment, maybe, but not of delivery).  But it certainly could come in handy when dealing with a troublesome buyer who might not think you shipped right away.

So, to be clear, you print off an extra copy of the PayPal labels and ask the Post Office to stamp them?  They've never regarded this as an uncommon request?  And what does the actual stamp show -- Received by Canada Post on such-and-such date.

Thanks.

[gifts_of_elegance]

---

@lady.stark wrote:

---

---

I think I am missing something, because an Item Not Received can be changed to Not As Described. But the other way around is not possible...

---

You are not missing anything.  That is exactly what happened.  When he was told to return the item for a refund, he changed it to "item not received" and of course PayPal/eBay decided that "not received" was not covered by Seller's Protection.

[gifts_of_elegance]

---

@jt-libra wrote:

---

@pierrelebel wrote:

For confirmation of the $20 fee charged by PayPal for chargeback, please take a look at (near bottom):

https://www.paypal.com/ca/webapps/mpp/merchant-fees

Chargeback Fee

$20

---

Thanks Pierre!  I looked up the site and found the $20 charge applies to international payments.  The purchaser was registered in USA and had a California shipping address and a telephone number.  He registered Sept.23/14 and had 48 positive feedbacks. There was some conversation between us and he even left positive feedback for me.  The credit card showed a name in Chinese symbols.

---

[gifts_of_elegance]

---

---

@jt-libra wrote:

"I haven't (thank goodness) yet had to deal with a chargeback, but every time I ship without tracking, I get my local postal clerk to stamp a copy of my Paypal label (Small/Light Packet) with their date received stamp.  Would that be sufficient in these cases?"

I appreciate all your comments rose-dee.

You raised an interesting point about whether a copy of the PayPal label, date stamped by the Post Office, would constitute proof of shipment.  It never even occurred to me to do that.  I rather think that PayPal would not accept this as proof (of shipment, maybe, but not of delivery).  But it certainly could come in handy when dealing with a troublesome buyer who might not think you shipped right away.

So, to be clear, you print off an extra copy of the PayPal labels and ask the Post Office to stamp them?  They've never regarded this as an uncommon request?  And what does the actual stamp show -- Received by Canada Post on such-and-such date.

Thanks.

---

I stopped using PayPal labels a long time ago.  They were too big, sometimes had trouble printing and when I had to cancel a label, PayPal never refunded my payment, so I went back to my old system of hand-writing,  The Post office stamps the back of my Custom Declaration copy.  It gives the outlet's number, date received and "Post Office, name of city and postal code".  The cashier's receipt shows the size, weight and postal code of the shipment.  I also have proof of any GST I paid on postage.

---