eBay

mohawkwarrior · ‎04-10-2014

So I sold a Item to a person in Spain.

Shipping was $17 with out tracking or $52 with tracking.

He paid for the cheaper shipping so that means 6-8 weeks delivery time.

He filed a Non receipt of item with PayPal after 4 weeks.

So my Question is am I up the creek without a paddle as to getting my money back?

I have the Post office Reciept and copy of the shipping label that both the uyer and PayPal have copies of.

pjcdn2005 · ‎04-10-2014

So my Question is am I up the creek without a paddle as to getting my money back?

If the buyer has already been refunded, you won't get your money back from ebay or Paypal. But, you can ask the buyer to let you know once the item arrives so that payment can be arranged. They buyer may not let you know if they do not get the item, but that is the only chance that you have of receiving your money back.

It sounds as if you sent the item with surface shipping rather than air and that often does cause a problem. A buyer only has a certain amount of time to file a claim so if they wait longer than that and the item doesn't arrive, they have no way of receiving their money back. Many sellers won't use international surface for that reason. Since the seller is responsible for the item until it is delivered to the buyer, it is up to the seller to decide what method they are willing to use for shipping.

mohawkwarrior · ‎04-10-2014

He didn't want to pay the higher shipping for the item. Money is being held by PayPal at the moment. He can say he never got it even when he receives it.
Sellers have no protection with either Ebay or Paypal. So it's easy for buyers to be dihonest.
I'm not shipping outside NA anymore that's for sure.

pjcdn2005 · ‎04-10-2014

There is seller protection IF you follow the rules and if you have tracking. But because tracking is so expensive, it often isn't feasible for Canadians to use it so you have to protect yourself as best as possible by using a faster shipping method, using self insurance or using a third party insurance company when necessary. If the buyer does not want to pay for shipping by air then you are likely better off without the sale.

You can certainly refuse to ship overseas if you chose or you can be proactive and protect yourself as mentioned.

mr.elmwood · ‎04-10-2014

@pjcdn2005 wrote:
So my Question is am I up the creek without a paddle as to getting my money back?

If the buyer has already been refunded, you won't get your money back from ebay or Paypal. But, you can ask the buyer to let you know once the item arrives so that payment can be arranged. They buyer may not let you know if they do not get the item, but that is the only chance that you have of receiving your money back.

It sounds as if you sent the item with surface shipping rather than air and that often does cause a problem. A buyer only has a certain amount of time to file a claim so if they wait longer than that and the item doesn't arrive, they have no way of receiving their money back. Many sellers won't use international surface for that reason. Since the seller is responsible for the item until it is delivered to the buyer, it is up to the seller to decide what method they are willing to use for shipping.

Exactly what PJ says.

Buyer has 45 days to open a case. What should a buyer do on day 44 when the item has not arrived? Any seller will tell them to open a case of INR.

Never, ever, use surface as the buyer is forced into opening a case.

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mohawkwarrior · ‎04-10-2014

He was the one that picked the shipping not me.

mr.elmwood · ‎04-10-2014

Does not matter. You agreed to a method where the buyer is forced to open an INR. Buyers are not shipping sophisticated. They think in terms of days, not months.

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femmefan1946 · ‎04-10-2014

He didn't want to pay the higher shipping for the item

Which translates as : He didn't want to pay the price at which you wanted to sell.

If you were selling something for $100 and someone offered you $1 would you sell?

No.

At least, I hope not.

Basically, the buyer was bullying you into exposing your self to possible fraud.

The seller decides what the shipping will be and what it will cost. Not the buyer.

The buyer then has the choice of buying or not buying.

Do sell internationally. But you may want to do more selling within North America before expanding. Then choose UK, Australia and maybe Germany at first.

Don't ship by Surface.

Dont' give buyers any choice of shipping service.

They all want to put in a nickel and get a dollar song.

As advised. Pay the refund before Paypal does and keep your seller account clean. You can\t afford not to this early in your career.

And then, because the buyer may be impatient rather than dishonest, ask him to refund the refund through Paypal > Send Money when the item arrives.

It's a learning experience. I hate those too.

toff3 · ‎04-10-2014

Mohawk,

Regular readers of this board will not be surprised that I disagree with most of what the respondents to your query have written. We needn't go into the reason why (it's all been thrashed out numerous times) but there's a few points I'd like to make.

1. The international postal system functions very well.

2. I don't like the implication that eBayers are as likely to be dishonest as honest.

3. Never sell anything that you cannot afford to lose. Never forget, as PJ rightly says, YOU, as the seller, are solely responsible for the safe delivery of your shipment into the hands of your buyer.

4. Do NOT waste your money on tracking (you actually mean delivery confirmation), unless the item in question is extremely rare and valuable (see point 1 above).

What I find curious is that you apparently gave your Spanish buyer a shipping choice of "$17 without tracking" or "$52 with tracking". What were these services, Small Packet Surface, Tracked Packet...or what? And where did you get the forecast 6-8 weeks delivery time?

Tom

rose-dee · ‎04-10-2014

@mohawkwarrior wrote:
He was the one that picked the shipping not me.

Yes, and I agree with 'femmefan' that, given a choice, buyers will choose the cheapest shipping every time. Yet, as the others have said, you are ultimately responsible for the item getting into your buyer's hands. Which is why I think you have to decide for your buyers in order to protect yourself (in other words, state one shipping service in the listing and stick with it).

This of course means you need to decide if international shipping is worth the cost. I find international air service by Small Packet or Light Packet is reliable and quick, as long as the item is fairly lightweight. But neither is "cheap", and personally I will now only ship internationally if the item value is high enough to justify air service. And once you get beyond 1kg in weight, you have some tough choices to make -- you have to consider shipping cost against item value very carefully. You also have to decide whether the hassles and cost of shipping internationally are worth it to you for the number of sales you might get and the value of those sales.

As 'femmefan' says, definitely a learning curve that takes time to master.

toff3 · ‎04-11-2014

I agree with 'femmefan' that, given a choice, buyers will choose the cheapest shipping every time. Yet, as the others have said, you are ultimately responsible for the item getting into your buyer's hands. Which is why I think you have to decide for your buyers in order to protect yourself (in other words, state one shipping service in the listing and stick with it).

That's a pretty high-handed way to treat your customers, just to "protect yourself", i.e. save your own neck. Naturally a buyer is likely to choose the cheapest shipping option but at the same time he should be fully informed of the implications of so doing. I simply cannot understand this general paranoia that international surface shipment will inevitably result in an INR claim, nasty negative feedback, etc., etc. The seller should reassure the buyer that he will issue a refund - no questions asked and without recourse to PayPal - after a reasonable time has elapsed without delivery.

To simply pass along Canada Post's outrageous international airmail shipping rates (double the surface rates) for small packages heavier than 250 g to one's customer as a fait accompli is indefensible.

Tom

mr.elmwood · ‎04-11-2014

Tom, that is all very true. The problem is eBay's rules that prevent the utilization of surface shipping. eBay wants all sellers shipping internationally but will not allow reasonable rates or shipping times.

eBay's position. Their lips to my ears: "Pass the costs along to the buyer". "Use Expresspost and pass the costs along". That is what I have been told.

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rose-dee · ‎04-11-2014

@toff3 wrote:

That's a pretty high-handed way to treat your customers, just to "protect yourself", i.e. save your own neck.

To simply pass along Canada Post's outrageous international airmail shipping rates (double the surface rates) for small packages heavier than 250 g to one's customer as a fait accompli is indefensible.

You're jumping to a conclusion that is wrong and then lambasting me for it. Please come down from your high horse. You assume that I actually charge my buyers what it costs to ship with an air service -- I never do, and I didn't state that I do in my previous post.

What I did say was that I don't think it's wise to leave the choice of shipping service entirely up to the buyer, mainly because given an entirely open choice, who wouldn't choose the least expensive option?

The underlying problem is that many buyers are unaware of the factors surrounding shipping that can affect their satisfaction with a transaction. I doubt many of my US customers understand much about Canadian shipping services, and it's therefore up to me to make the choice and set an attractive and competitive price for shipping, using a service that I know will make them happy. As Mr. E. rightly points out, eBay's policies don't align with the cheapest surface shipping options, so a seller is going to get into trouble sooner or later by offering it. Do what I do -- offer surface prices, but actually provide air service.

Yes, I absorb a lot of shipping losses, but the volume of sales usually balances most of it, and I claim the rest as customer discounts/losses. In fact, in situations where a purchaser buys more than one item, the additional sale often makes up for most of the loss in shipping discounts I provide.

I choose the shipping service for my listings in order to minimize delivery times and handling problems (the less an item is handled, the less likely it will get broken, damaged or misplaced), and to make happy customers who get their items quickly. I don't let Canada Post dictate shipping prices to me -- I use flat rates and choose how much to charge for those shipping services to my buyers, which are invariably discounted, sometimes quite dramatically. My shipping rates (all flat rates), are all lower than the current rates and many are still 2011 rates. I frequently give additional "surprise" shipping discounts to my customers after a sale.That makes them happy too. In fact, if a buyer purchases 2 or more items from me, she/he is quite likely to get free shipping on all but the first one; I offer free shipping for any 5 items purchased in the same order, and I run totally free shipping promos frequently.

I also don't believe in rolling some or all of the shipping cost into the item. To my mind that is disingenuous smoke and mirrors, and would put me out of step with my competitors anyway. What's the point of raising my item prices only to not sell? I'd rather sell more and lose money on the shipping.

The truth is, I actually appreciate and respect my buyers far too much to use shipping "tricks" (i.e. either forcing a high-priced service on them to protect myself, or "hiding" shipping in the item price). So I'm afraid your snap conclusion about my earlier comment was dead wrong. I will continue to offer inexpensive, discounted shipping as a courtesy to my valued customers until Canada Post raises air services to the point where I'm so squeezed that I can no longer make any reasonable return on this site.

rose-dee · ‎04-11-2014

@toff3 wrote:
The seller should reassure the buyer that he will issue a refund - no questions asked and without recourse to PayPal - after a reasonable time has elapsed without delivery.

And if the buyer becomes anxious, or hasn't read the seller's reassurances, or perhaps doesn't feel the seller's reasonable timeline is his own reasonable timeline? An INR claim will be opened.

Soon sellers are going to have to be concerned about every open claim, as eBay is changing the rules vis-a-vis claims. Too many of those and the Defects will add up. EBay tells sellers that buyers want their "stuff" fast, and they're right -- it's the reality of this marketplace. EBay backs up that statement with policies to ensure sellers perform.

fatdane · ‎04-12-2014

At the moment I only sell stamps at ebay, so international shipping is the same as domestic, pop the item into an envelope, put stamps on envelope and mail it. When we were selling glassware and China international sales became to much of a hassle to continue. Buyers would opt for surface and start complaining about slow delivery. Even if they did not file INR claims they tied up a lot of time with emails back and forth, i.e. wheres is my item?, answer somewhere known only to God and Canada Post. It just was not worth the hassle so we now sell Glass and China items at an antique mall and life is a lot simpler and hassle free.

Some items are just not worth selling overseas, and may not be worth selling into a domestic mail order market.

mr.elmwood · ‎04-12-2014

My customers cannot "opt" for a service I do not offer. Do not offer a service you cannot rely on.

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toff3 · ‎04-12-2014

In this thread I confime myself to discussing shipment of small packages heavier than 250 g to International destinations.

Notwithstanding Mr E's earlier post, I know of no eBay regulation that prevents me from offering any particular shipping service. Should eBay ever introduce one, I will immediately end my association with the site.

If Rose-dee can make a go of it, offering her customers fast delivery at a reasonable price while taking a hit on shipping cost, good for her. With a price differential of 100% and more between air and surface mail, I cannot. Rose-dee does admit, however, that the day may come when Canada Post raises prices to the point where she has to throw in the towel. For her sake, I hope that day is some time off...but I am not optimistic. From January 2007 (the first appearance of Light Packet) to January 2014, the rate for an International Lt Pkt increased 60%. Over that same period, for a Small Packet in the 251 g to 500 g range to Europe, the air rate increased 28%, the surface rate 37%.

Tom

reallynicestamps · ‎04-12-2014

I know of no eBay regulation that prevents me from offering any particular shipping service.

Technically you are right.

But in effect, by setting the deadline for Item Not Received disputes much earlier than delivery can be expected, even by the optimistic standards of Canada Post, eBay does prevent a wise seller from offering surface shipping.

That's not a hit at you or at cuomo, as I understand that your customers are calm sensible types who understand that 'you can have it good, you can have it cheap, you can have it fast: but you can only pick two of those." But the instant gratification mentality is not confined to North American buyers and Surface shipping should be chosen very very carefully.

I don't think most eBay buyers are dishonest. But in several decades of selling everything from stamps to woodstoves by mail, I must say that eBay buyers are the most likely to report non-delivery.

mr.elmwood · ‎04-12-2014

Tom, let me re-phrase. Seller offered a shipping choice that was going to result in an INR. That was the sellers choice. Seller has the choice not to offer that service.

I do not offer surface shipping internationally. I could get into different product lines. I would make more than I would lose, money wise. The negs, cases, and defects say it is not worth it.

eBay's position, as spoken to me is "Pass the costs along to the buyer". Or? Sell at your risk or do not sell.

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