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momcqueen · ‎07-07-2016

Good news overnight on the looming postal lockout/strike front. To paraphrase The Godfather, the federal government has made an offer they can't refuse.

https://www.canadapost.ca/web/en/blogs/announcements/details.page?article=2016/07/06/canada_post_pre...

Canada Post Prepared to Submit to Binding Arbitration

Federal Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Labour, MaryAnn Mihychuk, has asked both Canada Post and the Canadian Union of Postal Workers (CUPW-Urban and CUPW-RSMC) to submit to binding arbitration to resolve the current impasse at negotiations.

The Canada Post Corporation has already agreed. "It is our hope that CUPW will consider submitting to binding arbitration to end the uncertainty. Canada Post is extending the current 72-hour notice period to Monday at 12:01 am to provide time for the union to consider this option."

It would be suicide for the unions to refuse, although I do expect they will make a show of doing so and wait until the final moments to concede. Binding arbitration is the best we can hope for at this point.

dutchman48 · ‎07-10-2016

Here is another of my silly, or maybe not so silly, questions.

The contract at this time is null and void.

Is there anything in the charter that says that CP can't start hiring non union workers since there is no contract between them and the union any more?

pierrelebel · ‎07-10-2016

"The contract at this time is null and void."

I did not know that.

Is there anything in the expired contract confirming that all employments are terminated with the expiry of the contract? I doubt it very much.

I suggest taking a look at labour law in Canada: http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/labour-law/

fort2b · ‎07-10-2016

I can see parcel delivery being considered 'essential' in that ecommerce has become a very important part of the economy and is only going to grow. It's not essential for Mary to receive her new purse, but it is essential that companies that sell purses online are able to do so, Otherwise they go out of business and all of their employees are out of a job. And economical shipping is a vital part of ecommerce.

As is being demonstrated, couriers cannot handle the overflow from CP and in fact are becoming unwilling to take on new customers.. All the couriers combined only account for 1/3 of the parcels shipped in Canada, so it's easy to see why they are swamped now....so once again we see that CP is for all intents and purposes, a monopoly.

I agree that you could not separate lettermail and parcels......it's all 'mail'. Is the post office essential in terms of life and death like police, fire and medical? No. But it is essential to the economy and like it or not, the economy is a vital part of all our lives. In addition, money problems and the stress that comes from them, annually account for an enormous number of health issues, including death (eg heart attacks and stroke).

So yes the post office is unquestionably essential.

dutchman48 · ‎07-10-2016

Oh, and one other observation. There is more than one postal union.

Does CUPW even care what they are doing to them?

pierrelebel · ‎07-10-2016

"I can see parcel delivery being considered 'essential' in that ecommerce has become a very important part of the economy"

If that were true, and in fairness to everyone, the law would ban ALL strikes by ALL workers involved in goods delivery within Canada, not just postal workers.

rose-dee · ‎07-10-2016

@pierrelebel wrote:

Canada Post may have to divide itself in two:

1) an essential service, controlled through a Crown Corporation, providing mail service to all Canadians

2) a parcel delivery service, owned by private interests with no link to the government. Since such company would have to compete with UPS, FedEx, Canpar, etc I suspect their workers eventually would earn comparable wages with comparable benefits. I do not think current postal workers (with superior wages and benefits) would be too happy!

That's not an irrational solution, but I can't see it being practicable. My understanding is the letter section is failing anyway. Most people these days can actually do without mail service, even though some older people might need a little help in arranging online delivery of essential mail. (We actually have a regular workshop at our local Y where youngsters train "oldsters" how to use the internet and smart phones and access services).

I think it might be fairly easy to make an argument that physical lettermail delivery is actually no longer essential.

As for parcel delivery, given the problems I've had using private carriers, I'm not sure I'd rather entrust guaranteed delivery within a specified time frame (which is, after all, what eBay now judges sellers on), to a private company rather than the really very efficient network of Canada Post parcel services. Considering the small population of this country and the spaces involved, how long would it be before a private national carrier would be focusing on the "real" market (parcels to/from the U.S.) and ignoring domestic Canadian needs? At least with a Crown corporation, domestic parcel services will stay on the radar.

I still believe the government needs to take a good, hard look at lettermail service, pare it down (perhaps have lettermail service only twice a week), and focus on the parcel service where there is the potential for the corporation to remain solvent. Hopefully the Liberal government's invitation for public input will help to usefully retool Canada Post.

I just can't imagine that too many people would complain about only receiving lettermail twice a week. How many of us stand at the mailbox waiting for our bills to arrive every day?

fort2b · ‎07-10-2016

@dutchman48 wrote:
Here is another of my silly, or maybe not so silly, questions.

The contract at this time is null and void.

Is there anything in the charter that says that CP can't start hiring non union workers since there is no contract between them and the union any more?

I guess you're referring to pulling a Ronald Reagan and firing all the postal employees and hiring replacements, like he did with the air traffic controllers? I do not believe that is possible when a union is in a legal strike position. Otherwise it would be routinely done, or at least held as a threat over the union if they don't sign a new contract pronto.

In the case of an illegal strike it can most definitely be done, however.

fort2b · ‎07-10-2016

@pierrelebel wrote:
"I can see parcel delivery being considered 'essential' in that ecommerce has become a very important part of the economy"

If that were true, and in fairness to everyone, the law would ban ALL strikes by ALL workers involved in goods delivery within Canada, not just postal workers.

Why? The key difference is that CP can be viewed as a monopoly. A courier service is not the same as a postal service, any more than a taxi service is the same as public transit. Both perform a similar function but are very different types of services.

If FedEx goes on strike there is still Purolator, UPS, a whole host of other courier options and also, Canada Post.

If CP goes on strike there are no real alternatives because of the much higher cost of couriers (which some will poo-poo but the much higher shipping cost is often the difference between making a profit and suffering a loss on an item) and also, as we are seeing, courier services are not able to even come close to picking up the slack.

dutchman48 · ‎07-10-2016

This is all I could find in regards to my question

"If the employer wins the strike or lockout so completely that no collective agreement is reached, the employees' jobs are protected only by the unfair labour-practice laws and individual employment law"

dutchman48 · ‎07-10-2016

But the union does not want to strike, or they would have done it long ago. They would be locked out.

dutchman48 · ‎07-10-2016

I have no idea what is in their contract and what happens if is has expired. There may be a clause that it continues indefinitely or there may not be. I would really like to see their contract!

I was asking a theoretical question and I am sure it would open all kinds of legal challenges and government interference.

Something, however does need to be done to prevent this from happening on a continual basis. It does no one any good, especially the public users, who to me, are far more important than 50,000 or so postal workers.

fort2b · ‎07-10-2016

@dutchman48 wrote:
I have no idea what is in their contract and what happens if is has expired. There may be a clause that it continues indefinitely or there may not be. I would really like to see their contract!

I was asking a theoretical question and I am sure it would open all kinds of legal challenges and government interference.

Something, however does need to be done to prevent this from happening on a continual basis. It does no one any good, especially the public users, who to me, are far more important than 50,000 or so postal workers.

i'd be happy if we were considered AS important as 50,000 or so postal workers.. All i'm hearing about is their rights and nobody elses'

momcqueen · ‎07-10-2016

This lockout/strike reminds me of bitter divorce proceedings: two sides, who cannot be further apart, arguing to the extent a mediator needs to step in and, all the while, the dependent children are shoeless and left to starve because Mom and Dad are too busy fighting with one another to notice or care.

fort2b · ‎07-10-2016

@mjwl2006 wrote:
This lockout/strike reminds me of bitter divorce proceedings: two sides, who cannot be further apart, arguing to the extent a mediator needs to step in and, all the while, the dependent children are shoeless and left to starve because Mom and Dad are too busy fighting with one another to notice or care.

well, it's a little different. One side, CUPW notices and cares a lot. We the public are its only bargaining chip. If there was another alternative we'd all be using it and could care less if CP and CUPW bicker until the end of time.

But in truth, i'm stumped as to what Palecek's game plan is. His stalling is merely going to result in CP locking out the workers eventually. Canada Post doesn't really need to make money....there are no shareholders that are going to freak out...the company can just sit there, idle. But the workers do need to make money, because in time they will lose their cars, their homes, their life savings.

If Palecek thinks that public pressure will force a resolution, he's dead on. But it will be in the form of legislation which is perfectly legal and constitutional, coupled with binding arbitration, to be fair to both sides.

So, he can agree to binding arb. now, or he can have it thrust upon him weeks and weeks from now after his workers, who he claims to care so much about, have lost thousands and thousands in income that they will never recover. Ironically, most of the workers will gain nothing, even if CUPW gets all its demands, as they already make the higher pay scale and already have the good pension. So most of them have nothing to gain but much to lose from all of this.

cumos55 · ‎07-10-2016

Canada Post has the mandate to provide mail delivery to all destinations within Canada.

They have chosen to do that with both lettermail and parcels....

This was the choice of Canada Post, and it is because of this that we cannot separate lettermail from parcel mail.

Therefore... whatever we conclude with respect to lettermail must also be applied to parcels.

Canada Post continues

with lettermaill they are progressing to community mailboxes... and maybe a delivery for less than 5 days a week

while for parcels they have chosen to deliver the online mail... and although we can separate lettermail from parcel mail... On-line mail includes both lettermail and parcel mail.

Canada Post has chosen its direction..... and it is because of the original mandate... that by association, lettermail and parcel mail, Canada Post provides an essential service to all Canadians.

cumos55 · ‎07-10-2016

CPC and CUPW have been negotiating for about 6 months..... and there is a definite standoff.

There has been no form of final agreement in 2016... and if we go back to 2011 there was no agreement without binding arbitration.

The amount of mail moving through Canada Post has been greatly reduced.... making it very difficult for CPC to sustain mail delivery

By not agreeing CUPW has effectively shut down Canada Post... without a total walk out by the union.

CUPW has gone on strike without really "Going on strike".....

Can we then conclude that CUPW has been on the equivalent of "on strike" since July 1

rose-dee · ‎07-10-2016

@fort2b wrote:
Ironically, most of the workers will gain nothing, even if CUPW gets all its demands, as they already make the higher pay scale and already have the good pension. So most of them have nothing to gain but much to lose from all of this.

Which is precisely what "solidarity" is about, isn't it?

In the history of unions, people have actually died standing up for the rights of others when they had no personal, immediate gain. I suspect that anyone elected as a national union president is well aware of the history and willing to take the long view, on behalf of future members, even at a short-term cost to current members.

I'm not a union apologist, but I'll say again that modern employees in all areas have many rights and benefits to be thankful for that would very likely never have existed had people in unions not fought to achieve them decades ago.

And I think the rest of us should stop to consider that there are many people out there now who are able to buy our products and contribute economically to their communities because they retired with decent pensions. Those pensions are the result of union negotiations decades ago.

So I personally believe this dispute goes far beyond the immediate issues; it also involves questions of what sort of national postal service we want in the future and whether we want a stable, well-trained, "career" workforce operating it.

cumos55 · ‎07-10-2016

This last bit of discussion has been most interesting... most illuminating...

One can conclude that the government is most likely having the same discussion.

and... perhaps CUPW understands this reality as well....

We could have a new Canada Post... now... or in the future.... a Canada Post that serves the people of Canada... as an essential service

fort2b · ‎07-10-2016

@rose-dee wrote:
@fort2b wrote:
Ironically, most of the workers will gain nothing, even if CUPW gets all its demands, as they already make the higher pay scale and already have the good pension. So most of them have nothing to gain but much to lose from all of this.
Which is precisely what "solidarity" is about, isn't it?

In the history of unions, people have actually died standing up for the rights of others when they had no personal, immediate gain. I suspect that anyone elected as a national union president is well aware of the history and willing to take the long view, on behalf of future members, even at a short-term cost to current members.

I'm not a union apologist, but I'll say again that modern employees in all areas have many rights and benefits to be thankful for that would very likely never have existed had people in unions not fought to achieve them decades ago.

And I think the rest of us should stop to consider that there are many people out there now who are able to buy our products and contribute economically to their communities because they retired with decent pensions. Those pensions are the result of union negotiations decades ago.

So I personally believe this dispute goes far beyond the immediate issues; it also involves questions of what sort of national postal service we want in the future and whether we want a stable, well-trained, "career" workforce operating it.

I totally agree with that. Were it not for the efforts of unions over the decades most employees would not enjoy the benefits they do today. It has been an essential part of the development of Western society.

However, in this particular case, CUPW's stand is weak at best. It's not like the employees are working in terrible conditions, mistreated or poorly compensated. Just the opposite. They all have cherry jobs that are every courier worker's dream. They have good pay, loads of vacation time, plenty of sick days and a dream pension.

Even the rural workers are better compensated by far then their urban courier brethren.

So, while unions have served a very useful purpose and have needed to take a stand and make hard sacrifices in the past, this time now, it's not needed. CUPW are just being stubborn to be spiteful, basically, because they are bitter about 2011.

They will never, ever, ever get the defined benefit pension plan for future employees. Ever. It would bankrupt CP. Defined benefit plans were fine when we had a dynamic growing economy, with high investment returns possible. Defined plans depend on high yields to grow sufficiently to provide the required income for retirees. If the growth isn't there, then they employer has to make up the shortfall.

And these days, the shortfalls are giant in defined benefit plans . In this modern economy, low growth is the norm and yields are practically zero and in fact turning negative around the globe. So an employer is on the hook for the entire shortfall and this is untenable.

Unless you'd like CP to raise it's postage and package rates by close to 100%? Then they could afford a defined benefit pension plan for the future employees. So if you're willing to pay for somebody else's cherry pension plan, drop CP an email and let them know.

rose-dee · ‎07-10-2016

fort2b wrote:

They will never, ever, ever get the defined benefit pension plan for future employees. Ever. It would bankrupt CP. Defined benefit plans were fine when we had a dynamic growing economy, with high investment returns possible. Defined plans depend on high yields to grow sufficiently to provide the required income for retirees. If the growth isn't there, then they employer has to make up the shortfall.

And these days, the shortfalls are giant in defined benefit plans . In this modern economy, low growth is the norm and yields are practically zero and in fact turning negative around the globe. So an employer is on the hook for the entire shortfall and this is untenable.

I don't know that this is true everywhere. My fortunate spouse's pension is a defined one, and we've had no warnings about problems with the plan. In fact, if the administrators can be believed, it's doing well. Is it a matter of a smaller number of working contributors at Canada Post? Or bad design? Why is it that, by contrast, CPP (Canada Pension Plan) reportedly seems to be in reasonably good shape into the future?

Surely a pension could be designed that meets the basic needs of future employees of CP without breaking the bank? Perhaps both parties are at fault for not finding a workable compromise.