Paypal DEMANDS you send out items via tracked mail!

I sold some expensive moldavite - on March 31st. The buyer REFUSED to pay for tracked shipping. So I mailed it out on April 2nd. On April 21st he filed a claim saying he hadn't received it yet! I put forward to Paypal that ALL I could do is follow what he wanted. So they have now issued him a full refund - debited me. So this guy will get the moldavite for free. And I'm out of pocket. They said that I HAVE to mail it via tracked - I said that most people don't want to pay for expedited and refuse to pay extra. The Paypal person said "well don't sell to them then!" I am SO SO upset that Paypal didn't even tell the buyer "It's still early and lets wait another 2 weeks" they just gave him a refund. They said they will email him and tell him to send me the payment when he gets the moldavite - yeah good luck with that one! Do any of you know if I have any recourse at all? 

Message 1 of 22
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Paypal DEMANDS you send out items via tracked mail!

1 - PayPal doesn't DEMAND anything of the sort, they recommend that you use a tracked service but it is NOT required.

 

2 - Your buyer only refused to pay for more expensive shipping because you offered a cheaper non-tracked method, the tracking is for YOUR protection, if you want to require buyers to use a tracked service don;t offer the option of a cheaper non-tracked service.

 

3 - It's not up to PayPal to tell your buyers how long a shipment might take or ask them to wait a bit longer that is YOUR job as a seller.

 

I looked at a couple of your listings and none of them specified shipping charges except for Canada, why is that? This entire situation could have been avoided if you specified a shipping rate and service in the listing instead of getting into a negotiation after the sale has been made.

 

 



"What else could I do? I had no trade so I became a peddler" - Lazarus Greenberg 1915
- answering Trolls is voluntary, my policy is not to participate.
Message 2 of 22
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Paypal DEMANDS you send out items via tracked mail!

As a vendor, it is your responsibility to heed what you risk. While I don't condone scamming by buyers, it is not up to the buyer to buy trackable shipping or insurance. You knew it was an expensive item, which clearly you didn't have the financial resources to knock it and say "oh well".

 

It is the seller / vendor who needs to put what they are willing to risk as the option for shipping, in this case trackable proof.

 

You also agreed to PayPal's EULA when you registered for a PayPal account - which these terms are clearly outlined you need to have proof in the form of tracking and for higher cost items delivery + signature confirmation to get seller protection against INR.

Message 3 of 22
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Paypal DEMANDS you send out items via tracked mail!

The buyer has no choice in the manner or cost of shipping. That is fully in the control of the seller. Buyer can "say" anything they want, seller makes the decision.

 

What the others above said.

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Message 4 of 22
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Paypal DEMANDS you send out items via tracked mail!

This kind of issue comes up so often on these boards that I can't understand why sellers don't see the connection between protecting themselves (against INR claims) and having to pay for that protection themselves.  

 

What it boils down to is that many sellers want all the protection of tracking/delivery confirmation, but at the price of a standard service.  Yes, they want to offer their buyers "cheap" shipping, so that their items are more attractive - a great concept.  However, that comes with risk to the seller -- risk of loss, and (now) the risk of getting a defect from eBay.  Buyers, given the choice, will pick the least expensive shipping option - and why wouldn't they?  I doubt most buyers would want to pay twice the shipping cost to protect the seller against INR claims.   

 

If you get increased sales as a result of offering cheap, untracked shipping, those extra sales may be sufficient to cover the occasional loss or INR defect.  If your volume is too low for such risk, then the option is to offer tracked shipping at an attractive price, i.e. pay for some of the extra shipping cost either out of your own pocket, or partially (or fully) out of the item price. 

 

Expecting customers to wait a month or more to receive an item without taking any action just isn't viable on eBay anymore. 

 

 

Message 5 of 22
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Paypal DEMANDS you send out items via tracked mail!


@rose-dee wrote:

This kind of issue comes up so often on these boards that I can't understand why sellers don't see the connection between protecting themselves (against INR claims) and having to pay for that protection themselves.  

 

What it boils down to is that many sellers want all the protection of tracking/delivery confirmation, but at the price of a standard service.  Yes, they want to offer their buyers "cheap" shipping, so that their items are more attractive - a great concept.  However, that comes with risk to the seller -- risk of loss, and (now) the risk of getting a defect from eBay.  Buyers, given the choice, will pick the least expensive shipping option - and why wouldn't they?  I doubt most buyers would want to pay twice the shipping cost to protect the seller against INR claims.   

 

If you get increased sales as a result of offering cheap, untracked shipping, those extra sales may be sufficient to cover the occasional loss or INR defect.  If your volume is too low for such risk, then the option is to offer tracked shipping at an attractive price, i.e. pay for some of the extra shipping cost either out of your own pocket, or partially (or fully) out of the item price. 

 

Expecting customers to wait a month or more to receive an item without taking any action just isn't viable on eBay anymore. 

 

 


That, ladies and gentlemen, is shipping in a bottle.

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Message 6 of 22
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Paypal DEMANDS you send out items via tracked mail!

Yes, another Kudos for this.
Message 7 of 22
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Paypal DEMANDS you send out items via tracked mail!

rose-dee sums the seller's choices up brilliantly.

 

If a seller wants/needs protection against lost/delayed/damaged claims, she has choices.

Use tracked, Delivery Confirmed or Signature Confirmed services. These are for the benefit of the seller only, although there is a PR advantage in that buyers like to feel protected by "tracking".

Use self-insurance. Add a few pennies to every shipping fee (or to the asking price) and put those virtual pennies in a virtual Cookie Jar against the occasional claim. Then settle those claims before they go to Paypal and hurt your selling account.

Use Free Shipping. And remember that Free Shipping just means that the cost of shipping is included in the asking price. With Free Shipping there is no dickering with the customer. How much cheaper than "free" can one get, after all?

 

And of course, these are not mutually exclusive. When I sell my $1000 face postage lots they are described as Free Shipping. But they are sent with tracking and part of my profit goes in the Cookie Jar.

Message 8 of 22
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Paypal DEMANDS you send out items via tracked mail!


@femmefan1946 wrote:

 

And of course, these are not mutually exclusive. When I sell my $1000 face postage lots they are described as Free Shipping. But they are sent with tracking and part of my profit goes in the Cookie Jar.


Yes, that's an excellent point, and one I was going to add to my post above, but in a slightly different way by saying that there's no reason you can't mix and match your shipping strategies. 

 

Much will depend on the value, size, weight and destination.  For example, I have different ways of dealing with shipping for lower priced, lighter items than for higher-priced, heavier items.  I often "upgrade" my buyers' shipping at no cost to them on the more costly items, and provide free shipping on the lighter, less expensive ones which I send without tracking (because I figure I can afford to take a loss or refund if necessary on those).  And the recent downturn in the Canadian dollar has helped to lessen the sting of Canada Post increases, and help refill my cookie jar.  

 

I have to say that in several years of selling on eBay I've never yet had a parcel go completely missing.  One that I recall was delayed a couple of weeks due to Hurricane Sandy, but did eventually arrive.  Those aren't bad odds, but then I don't ship to Papua, Timbuktu, and the like.

Message 9 of 22
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Paypal DEMANDS you send out items via tracked mail!

I used to have parcels go "missing". Some for real, I do believe. The CN22 PO labels, the glue does not stick. Labels come loose and tear off. I have seen this with my parcels. Taping the labels on, slowed that considerably.

 

Switching to Paypal shipping I have only had one parcel go missing in the last 1200. That was to Mexico. I am 0 for 2 for Mexico, so, no more Mexico.

 

Vast majority of mailing delays can be attributed to shipper error. I have transposed digits in Zip Codes. My handwritten "5" looks like a stick with a hat on it. For a while, I was putting my labels too far down and to the right. PO equipment was reading the "from" address as the "to" address. Handwritten labels, if they get wet, the ink runs and cannot be read.

 

Paypal shipping labels in the exact correct format, inside the internationally approved labelope? Exact correct format, now with bar codes plus exact correct Customs info? My parcels are going through faster.

 

Vast freaking majority of buyers are dead-on honest. If they say they did not get it, well, something went wrong and they did not get it.

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Message 10 of 22
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Paypal DEMANDS you send out items via tracked mail!

Mr E. has a good point - many years ago I stopped writing addresses on as many things as I could (remember I'm a "uses stamps" guy) and simply cut and started taping the PAYPAL address right from the emailed payment notice onto the package..... my "lost package" rate dropped significantly after that (I also like to write 769 as 796 etc a lot too.... and my numbers sometimes can be interpreted many ways!).

 

The only frustrating thing about this process now, is that it appears when people fill out their PAYPAL address, if they don't put something on every line it puts NOT PROVIDED in it....so I end up with PAYPAL addresses of stuff like:

 

Joe Schmoe

114 Swiss street

NOT PROVIDED

CH 14115

SWITZERLAND

 

Which means I have to go back to my cut and paste days and cut out the "NOT PROVIDED" line.....

Message 11 of 22
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Paypal DEMANDS you send out items via tracked mail!

I have done that as well, cut out the address and taped it on. Never a mistake that way.

There are a lot of things we each can do to protect the integrity of what we are doing. I used to "point fingers" until changing my ways improved my results.

Yes, Russians know their PO is very slow. They are slow to complain because they know that. For us to point fingers at countries like this makes no sense. Sure isn't news to them.

Had a parcel returned from Israel. It came back marked that the buyer did not pick it up from the PO. I went to refund through Paypal. I couldn't. Paypal refused to send money to a "WAR ZONE".

How many of us, here, in safe as all heck Canada, would consider different parts of civilized society as "WAR ZONE"? I didn't and do not.
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Message 12 of 22
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Paypal DEMANDS you send out items via tracked mail!

I have to say that in several years of selling on eBay I've never yet had a parcel go completely missing (Rose-dee)

 

Vast majority of mailing delays can be attributed to shipper error (Mr E)

 

Exactly. Which is why, if you're an experienced and careful postal shipper, you can assure even your overseas buyer with complete confidence that his purchase will be delivered in to his hands even if - horror of horrors!! - you use surface mail.

 

Tom

Message 13 of 22
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Paypal DEMANDS you send out items via tracked mail!


@toff3 wrote:

Which is why, if you're an experienced and careful postal shipper, you can assure even your overseas buyer with complete confidence that his purchase will be delivered in to his hands even if - horror of horrors!! - you use surface mail.

 


Yes, you may be right if you're selling from your own website, but eBay has their rules set up to favour quick delivery, making patience on the part of a buyer no longer a virtue.  Anyone selling on this site must understand that eBay will permit buyers to open cases at the point that eBay says the item should arrive, not at the point the seller thinks is reasonable.  It's that fact, not the reliability of surface shipping, that makes surface shipping a risky choice for eBay sellers. 

 

We have to remember as well that every opened case will now constitute a defect, and without delivery confirmation will also count against a seller as an unresolved case if the buyer refers the case to eBay for determination.  At a 0.3% allowance for such unresolved cases, it wouldn't take long to add up to serious trouble.

 

By the way, you seem to have extrapolated from my comment above that I use surface shipping.  I didn't say that I did (I actually never have).  So my remark that I'd never had an item go missing must be understood in the context of having always used air services (either parcel or letter mail).  Light Packet Air and Small Packet Air are my shipping services of choice for US and overseas, but I "subsidize" the cost for my buyers, so they never see -- or pay -- the true shipping cost. 

 

 

Message 14 of 22
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Paypal DEMANDS you send out items via tracked mail!

Rose-dee,

All I inferred from your comment that I quoted was that mail service - both domestically and internationally - is very reliable - and that goes for surface as well as air mail. (All the more reason for me to be upset with the way Canada Post is running their business into the ground).

I'm fully aware of your aversion to using surface mail. Judging by what you sell, you're rarely faced with Canada Post's extortionary 100%+ mark-up for overseas airmail. You can thank your lucky stars.

As for me, I've used surface mail when I've had no practical alternative for nearly 15 years on eBay. I've suffered exactly two (alleged)losses in the mail and have had zero claims opened against me in eBay/PayPal. I couldn't care less what strictures eBay comes up with and will continue the practices that work for me and my buyers. 

 

Tom

Message 15 of 22
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Paypal DEMANDS you send out items via tracked mail!


@tayconheart wrote:

I sold some expensive moldavite - on March 31st. The buyer REFUSED to pay for tracked shipping. So I mailed it out on April 2nd. On April 21st he filed a claim saying he hadn't received it yet! I put forward to Paypal that ALL I could do is follow what he wanted. So they have now issued him a full refund - debited me. So this guy will get the moldavite for free. And I'm out of pocket. They said that I HAVE to mail it via tracked - I said that most people don't want to pay for expedited and refuse to pay extra. The Paypal person said "well don't sell to them then!" I am SO SO upset that Paypal didn't even tell the buyer "It's still early and lets wait another 2 weeks" they just gave him a refund. They said they will email him and tell him to send me the payment when he gets the moldavite - yeah good luck with that one! Do any of you know if I have any recourse at all? 



You were trying to be cheap by not purchasing tracking or insurance.  Both only benefit the seller.

Message 16 of 22
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Paypal DEMANDS you send out items via tracked mail!

What a ridiculous comment, of course I wasn't trying to be cheap, That's what the buyer insisted on! I can't be held responsible for a lost or delayed shipment. He opened the claim after I had constant contact with him. He nor Paypal/Ebay factored in that it might be in customs. All the other shipments I sent out that day arrived. So it only leads me to believe that this package is in customs. I - nor any other seller - should be held responsible for slow or delayed shipping. It's not fair to us. I hope he is decent enough that he will pay me when he finally gets it - as now I'm out of pocket! When I called Paypal they said that they only cover the seller with a traceable package. I understand that, but at the same time, they - like I did - state to the buyer that they would wait longer. They didn't give me the option of waiting I HAD to respond right there and then. IF I could have waited to respond I would have. I was iffy about the sale from the get go, but when they have made the purchase I didn't want to end up with a bad mark for cancelling it. By the way virtually EVERY buyer - that I have sold thing too - takes the cheapest form of delivery. When it comes to the point where I either charge more for shipping - and get zinged on that - or charge more period and loose several good clients due to the cost, then I will have to take the chance on regular air mail. With the hope that this sort of things doesn't happen! 

Message 17 of 22
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Paypal DEMANDS you send out items via tracked mail!

 
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Message 18 of 22
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Paypal DEMANDS you send out items via tracked mail!


@tayconheart wrote:

What a ridiculous comment, of course I wasn't trying to be cheap, That's what the buyer insisted on!

 

If so, it very well could be they know the rules of ebay and paypal and have made it so you can't get your money back, essentially stealing the item.

 

I can't be held responsible for a lost or delayed shipment.

 

Yes, you are. Hey, I don't read the fine print either, but when you sold on ebay, collected payment with paypal, and then shipped with Canada Post, you agreed each and every time to be responsible if the item was not delivered.

 

He opened the claim after I had constant contact with him. He nor Paypal/Ebay factored in that it might be in customs.

 

If the buyer is honest, then you will probably get your money, but if not, all of this is moot. Paypal usually does allow extra time for delivery, but without tracking if the buyer says they didn't receive it you are out of luck.

 

All the other shipments I sent out that day arrived. So it only leads me to believe that this package is in customs.

 

or it's stolen.

 

I - nor any other seller - should be held responsible for slow or delayed shipping. It's not fair to us.

 

nope. It's not fair, but it's the way it is done and all parties agreed to it.

 

I hope he is decent enough that he will pay me when he finally gets it - as now I'm out of pocket! When I called Paypal they said that they only cover the seller with a traceable package. I understand that, but at the same time, they - like I did - state to the buyer that they would wait longer. They didn't give me the option of waiting I HAD to respond right there and then. IF I could have waited to respond I would have. I was iffy about the sale from the get go, but when they have made the purchase I didn't want to end up with a bad mark for cancelling it. By the way virtually EVERY buyer - that I have sold thing too - takes the cheapest form of delivery. When it comes to the point where I either charge more for shipping - and get zinged on that - or charge more period and loose several good clients due to the cost, then I will have to take the chance on regular air mail. With the hope that this sort of things doesn't happen!

 

Yup, buyers want the cheapest. I do too. As a seller you have to balance the value of the product, the risk in the sale and chance of loss. Tracking, insurance and shipping options are all ways to protect yourself. Unfortunately you may have an expensive lesson in this. Doesn't help but still true.

 

As a seller you have to protect your own interests first. That's what ebay, paypal, Canada Post and the buyer all do. If it's in the best interest of the buyer to steal from you, you need to do what you can to make sure that doesn't happen. 


 

Message 19 of 22
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Paypal DEMANDS you send out items via tracked mail!

Anonymous
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The problem is that you don't include shipping information which you should have included.  For expensive items, I would use tracking to protect myself.  Hard lessons for you to learn. 

 

 

1) start to include shipping information all the time

 

2) if expensive item, use tracking like Expedited, Tracked Packet or XpressPost depending Canada, USA, etc.

 

3) Accept that YOU are responsible meaning it includes tracking so you don't get "scammed".

Message 20 of 22
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