Help - Item Damaged - Seller Opened ShipCover Claim - Refuses to Refund $ Until Item Returned

[blebutterfly8]

I purchased an item on eBay and it arrived not as described. Its a claret jug - the foot is loose, the jug unstable and it leaks all over the place rendering it useless and not "excellent" as described. In attempts to be as honest as possible I contacted the buyer first and stated the issue requesting to return the item because i don't buy things that are damaged. I also stated that because it was not as described i wasn't paying return shipping because the error wasn't mine. (I've returned two items before (they were one purchase) and paid the return shipping to be honest, even though the seller wasn't and had completely misrepresented their items which is angering as I sell on eBay as well and go out of my way to be overly accurate.)

The buyer said it wasn't like that when he shipped it and that it must have been damaged in the mail. He then proceeded to open a ShipCover insurance claim. Giving the seller the benefit of the doubt that it was functional without a broken foot when shipped I verified the claim that it arrived damaged (because it is).

Now the seller informs me that I need to send the item back before he refunds me my money. As it is an issue with postal damage and not an "item not as described" there is no reason for the item to be returned. The item is useless and I'm not paying return shipping (not to mention the duty I was hit with through customs).

What should I do??

[pierrelebel]

Stop communicating with the seller

File a claim with eBay for "goods not as described"

[blebutterfly8]

How do I file a "goods not as described" claim?

It shows I file for a return based on "goods not as described" then return the item. That means the seller will get insurance monies from ShipCover as well as the item! And I'm out return shipping, duty charges and don't even have a broken jug to show for it?

Something isn't right with this process. If its damaged in the mail and its insured the insurance pays the seller, the seller refunds me and neither of us loss money... not even the shipping company, that's what insurance is for...

[pierrelebel]

Please take at look at:  http://pages.ebay.ca/ebay-money-back-guarantee/

[pjcdn2005]

Just to doublecheck...this item was not sent through the GSP but was sent to you directly by the seller..correct?

The item is not as described because it wasn't in the same shape as it was described and ebay requires that an item be returned in order to get the refund...the fact that there is insurance isn't taken into account.  However, the seller is supposed to pay return shipping but because you are in two different companies the seller can't print a return label for you. If you had check off that the item was damaged in shipping then the case should already mention that the seller pays for return shipping...does it?  You should ask the seller how they want to handle this. You might want to suggest that you can print the label and send them a copy of the receipt and ask them to reimburse you before you send the item back.

If you print the label through paypal there is a bit of a discount, you would probably have to use the  Canada Post service expedited USA to ship it back. btw, if it ends up that you don't have to use the label, you can void it in a certain amount of days although it does take some time to get your money back. 

If the seller flat out refuses to pay the money back, I would phone ebay and ask them how to handle it. You could use the option of asking ebay to step in but contacting them in person might work better.

If you paid duty/taxes when you picked the item up, there should be info on the back of the customs form telling you how to claim your money back since you are not keeping the item.

[dutchman48]

It would really be nice if Ebay got off their duff and dealt with this international return issue instead of doing nothing.

[blebutterfly8]

The item was damaged in the mail. Completely different than not as described. This is not the fault of the seller, nor is it the fault of mine. It is the insurance companies responsibility to come clean on the insurance. When an item is damaged in the mail the broken item should not need to be returned.

[blebutterfly8]

The eBay Money Back Guarantee is for returns. This item was damaged in the mail, it is a different situation. Returning it is of no use not only because the item is no longer functional but because either myself or the seller will have to pay return / duty costs - the insured amount only covers the cost it was insured for and therefore any extra shipping/duty comes out of my pocket or the sellers. The seller is refusing to refund the money, even though he has got a second full payment from the insurance! The seller is being dishonest.

[pjcdn2005]

When it comes to ebay claims an item damaged in shipping is an item not as described.   The seller isn't required to have insurance and they don't take insurance or lack of insurance into account...at least I'm not aware of a situation when they did take it into account.

If the seller refuses to pay the return shipping then there is a chance that ebay would rule in your favour without you having to return that item but if the seller will pay for it, it's unlikely that ebay will tell you to keep the item.

[pierrelebel]

"This is not the fault of the seller" ... "The seller is being dishonest"

It really does not matter who is at fault or if anyone is at fault.  You do not know nor does anyone know if the seller is honest or not and the seller does not know if you are honest or not.

There is a system in place to deal with these problems.  Not perfect but it works.

Your goal should be to get your money back.  Let the seller worry about getting his insurance money if he insured the item.  If not, it is not your problem.

KISS

[pjcdn2005]

As I explained, you are not going to be out duty costs as you can reclaim those. The seller should not have to pay duty because the item is merchandise being returned and you should mark that on the label. The seller would be out the amount of the return and the original shipping cost unless that was part of the claim. If they don't want to be out the return shipping cost then they should tell you to keep the item.

I don't make the rules...I'm just trying to explain how I understand the rules to be.  I personally wouldn't want to pay for an item to be returned if it was broken  but perhaps the seller thinks they can salvage something. I can understand why you think that they shouldn't have the item if they were paid back by the insurance but then why should you have it if the seller pays you back? It's sort of a catch22 situation.

[blebutterfly8]

It is my responsibility to salvage anything if it can be salvaged, the item is in my possession unless the insurance company picks it up from myself. This is law. The item is not in the possession of the sellers, if the insurance company pays the claim it is technically the possession of the insurance company? Frankly I do not believe the item was damaged in the mail but as you said that is not my call. It arrived damaged and not as described and that is all I know. The seller is trying to have their cake and eat it to and will likely try to do so with the next person they try and flog the item too - all at my time, frustration and expense. The item is located an hour from where I live at my mothers, is he going to pay for my gas and a full day of my time too?

[blebutterfly8]

A PayPal claim has been opened. Legally there is no obligation for the item to be returned. I paid $30 duty and wish to keep the damaged item. The seller has x2 the monies and only has a legal responsibility to return the paid funds. I fully believe in small claims court this case would be settled in favor of the buyer.

[blebutterfly8]

I am cooperating fully and can and will if requested provide evidence of the damage. A video has been taken of the object all wobbly and leaking from the foot.

[pjcdn2005]

Paypal buyer protection also states that the item should be returned before a refund is issued, perhaps they will make an exception in your case. If they do require the return, the buyer is responsible for to pay for return shipping.

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that it is ok for you to get your money back and keep the item but it isn't ok for the seller to get paid by the insurance company and get their item back. Assuming that the seller was actually paid by the insurance company, it  seems that you are both trying to get your 'cake.'

I hope that things work out for you, good luck.

[blebutterfly8]

There is no item to keep. ShipCover (PIP) requires the item not to be thrown out to verify the claim that the item has no function or value. The item is not being repaired as a repair would be outrageously expensive, more than the value of the full item, and render the intrinsic value of the item worthless.

If I buy a vase and there is a chip, the insurance pays the amount to repair the chip, I keep the vase and have it repaired with insurance money. The buyer gets the same amount and nobody is out he amount needed for the repair.

If you sell me a car and then accidentally run into the bumper the insurance pays the repair, you don't get the damaged bumper.

If the seller sold me an item and it was not as described, the item is returned for a refund. The seller sold me an item as described - the shipping company broke it. The item is broken and useless. The buyer keeps the money of the original purchase, the insurance pays for the damage and gives that money to myself who is out an item. They pay me for the broken item. The seller is supposed to act as a medium between the two parties, he is holding me hostage.

Returning the broken item puts me out money and time. It is not necessary or legally required. The seller is extorting the situation to make $200.

[blebutterfly8]

If the insurance only pays $175 then I only get $175 in return. And/or negotiate with the seller.

[pierrelebel]

"If the insurance only pays $175 then I only get $175 in return"

???

That does not make any sense.

When you file your claim with eBay/PayPal you get 100% of your money back.

Once again, from eBay:  http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/money-back-guarantee.html

Whatever the seller gets from the insurance has nothing to do with you, the buyer.  Sellers may or may not insure a shipment, they may or may not over-insure or under-insure it.  None of that has anything to do with the buyer.  Insurance is for the exclusive use and protection of the seller.

As stated earlier, just follow the correct procedure with eBay and/or PayPal, respect their timetables and worry about getting your money back.  Do not worry about the seller.

[pjcdn2005]

Returning the broken item puts me out money and time. It is not necessary or legally required. The seller is extorting the situation to make $200.

You would not be out any money if you had stayed with the ebay claim so that the seller had to pay return shipping.

You may not think the return of the item is necessary but it is not up to you as you have to follow the user agreements of ebay and/or paypal.

If the item is useless, how is the seller making $200?   That doesn't make sense.