A Liberal Majority

[puckstopshere]

A Liberal majority - you've got to be effing kidding.

I guess the people of Ontario like politicians that are the biggest crooks.

Squander a billion dollars for political gain - and they reward you. 

Well, my guess is that we won't have to look at Hudak much longer.

[puckstopshere]

I take it you are not a mother of two or three young children wanting to earn a living.

I have no problem with subsidized day care where there is a financial need.  My neighbor and his wife are business professionals earning exceptional salaries and utilize the same program as the mother of two or three. 

[valve37]

Unfortunately Puck that's the reality of universality in a free and democratic society. Assuming you're 65 I'd bet you don't need OAS?However it still keeps showing up every month.

[pierrelebel]

"Unfortunately Puck that's the reality of universality in a free and democratic society. Assuming you're 65 I'd bet you don't need OAS?However it still keeps showing up every month."

Yes and no.

Universality is great but Canadian society expects some limits.

If your retirement income is relatively high, you will lose or not be eligible to the "income supplement."

If your retirement income is even higher, your OAS will be subject to clawback. I am sure you know the feeling!

[valve37]

Yes and I bet you do also!

[disisus]

Hello Pierre, Valve, Puck and Prior.

I can see that not a lot has changed.

We have opinions and we have statistical facts.

Facts are posted and if they don't agree with someone's political opinion, they are ignored or the subject is changed.

Here are some more stats to ponder.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/canada/government-debt-to-gdp

Ontario isn't responsible for all of that.

The Federal Gov't alone is responsible for 693 Billion.

The Federal debt had decreased from 563 Billion in 1997 to 458 Billion in 2008. From 2008 to now the debt has increased to almost 700 Billion. An increase of 240 Billion which is approx. a 36% increase in debt.

I don't think I need to mention what political parties were in charge during these time periods.

While I realize that Canada went thru a recession, the fact is, the Feds were racking up the debt before the recession hit Canada. The recession just made it worse. And no, the opposition didn't make them do it. So obviously some of their financial decisions ( like cutting the GST and reducing Corporate taxes ) made it worse.

As far as Gov't employees go, the Federal Gov't increased the number of Federal employees in 2008 from 263,000 to 282,000 in 2011 and is now being slowly reduced and now sits  ( 2013 ) at the same level as 2008.

http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/res/stats/ssen-ane-eng.asp

So if you want to compare how Ontario fared under a Liberal Gov't versus a Conservative Gov't the facts are all there to compare.

Everyone knows that Ontario was hit particularly hard with the recession and you don't have gold in the ground as a back-up. Manitoba ( where I'm from ) doesn't either.

I also noticed some complaining about Hydro rates. It was the Conservative Gov't in Ontario that did that. The Liberal Gov't cannot reverse this decision once the horse has left the barn. One thing I'm glad for is that our Hydro ( Manitoba ) wasn't privatized. At least not yet. I don't think it's a coincidence that some of the lowest Hydro rates in North America are the one's that aren't privatized. Ours are roughly half of yours. Competition doesn't work to force lower rates when you have to force some sort of fake competition. Which is what this was. I'm sure someone benefited by it but it wasn't the average joe.

Valve. Here is a special message to you. The Federal Gov't is planning on changing some of the pension rules that will benefit those companies that have defined benefit programs. I'm assuming you have a defined benefit pension. I'd watch very closely what they are proposing since it could affect your take home pension.

Les

[valve37]

Digging up bones, same ol, same ol hey it's 2014, it's whar it is!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6AaHrOYpi0

[disisus]

LOL.

You just proved my point Valve.

Facts are posted and if they don't agree with someone's political opinion, they are ignored or the subject is changed.

Nice song though. 🙂

[pierrelebel]

"You just proved my point Valve."

Plus c'a change, plus c'est la meme chose!

[valve37]

"Valve. Here is a special message to you. The Federal Gov't is planning on changing some of the pension rules that will benefit those companies that have defined benefit programs. I'm assuming you have a defined benefit pension. I'd watch very closely what they are proposing since it could affect your take home pension."

Target Benefit Pension Plan Proposal Poses a Serious Threat

https://www.bellpensionersgroup.ca/viewNews.php?id=561&lang=en&chapt=Corporate&section=18

[valve37]

"I also noticed some complaining about Hydro rates. It was the Conservative Gov't in Ontario that did that. The Liberal Gov't cannot reverse this decision once the horse has left the barn."

Guess you never heard of the Ontario Liberals Green Energy Act which has pushed rates to the highest in Canada. Then to rub salt into Ontarians we now sell our excess electricity at a signifigant loss to the US and QC. As well Ontarians subsidize obscene rates per KWH to solar and wind turbine owners.

End to hydro rate subsidy urged

An environmental research group says $5 billion annually that goes toward subsidizing Ontario electricity rates should be completely eliminated over the next 10 years and instead given back to citizens in the form of an annual hydro rebate.

http://www.thestar.com/business/tech_news/2008/02/19/end_to_hydro_rate_subsidy_urged.html

[valve37]

More on subsidies Les

The sorry lessons of green-power subsidies

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/rob-commentary/the-sorry-lessons-of-green-power-su...

A recent study, co-authored by Fraser Institute energy economist Gerry Angevine, found that Ontario residents will pay an average of $285-million more for electricity each year for the next 20 years as a result of subsidies to renewable energy companies.

By the end of 2013, Ontario household power rates will be the second-highest in North America (after PEI), and they will continue to accelerate while they level off in most other jurisdictions. Even more alarming for Ontario’s economic competitiveness, businesses and industrial customers will be hit by almost $12-billion in additional costs over the same period.

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Such is the legacy of the provincial government’s 2009 decision to establish feed-in rates, ranging from 44.5 cents to 80.2 cents per kilowatt-hour (kWh) for solar power, and 13.5 cents/kWh for wind power. These solar feed-in rates average 11 times the 5.6 cents/kWh paid for nuclear-generated power, and 18 times the 3.5 cents/kWh for hydro-generated power. The wind-power rates are more than twice as high as nuclear, and four times those of hydro.

Besides the direct cost of these huge subsidies, there’s also a big hidden cost of fossil-fuelled standby facilities, because the wind doesn’t always blow and the Ontario sun certainly doesn’t always shine.

Faced with rising consumer reaction, the provincial government recently announced modest reductions to the feed-in rates, but they do nothing to change the results of the Fraser study because thousands of contracts have been guaranteed the higher rates for the next 20 years.

Liberal Premier Dalton McGuinty has predicted that the subsidies will propel Ontario to a world-leading position in green-power technology, creating thousands of jobs. Sadly, the Fraser study shows quite the opposite as the province’s already beleaguered manufacturing heartland sees its former electricity-cost advantage transformed into a competitive millstone.

Ontario isn’t the only place where grand green-power dreams have turned into a nightmare.

Several European countries began doling out subsidies nearly a decade ago. Germany has given away $130-billion, mostly to solar-power companies. Yet solar power makes up a minuscule 0.3 per cent of German power supply, while doing almost nothing toward the original objective of reducing greenhouse gas emissions. In February, Germany’s Minister of Economics and Technology, Philipp Roesler, announced a pullback from green-power subsidies saying the cost was “a threat to the economy.”

Spain also poured cash into solar- and wind-power subsidies with little to show for it except a $25-billion increase in its national debt. And British consumers have grown increasingly outraged about paying some $700-million a year in wind-farm subsidies that produce less than 0.5 per cent of power demand.

In the United States, green-power companies have received more than $4-billion (U.S.) to build wind farms as part of the Obama administration’s massive job-stimulus program. A recent Wall Street Journal investigation found that those projects created a total of 7,200 temporary construction jobs and only 300 permanent jobs.

Federal grants and loan guarantees were also awarded to companies with rickety business plans. Last September, California-based Solyndra LLC sought bankruptcy protection after receiving $535-million in loan guarantees to build a solar-panel factory. This month, Solar Trust of America filed for bankruptcy after failing to meet the terms a $2.1-billion loan guarantee to build what was to be the world’s largest solar-power generation plant.

It isn’t only energy consumers and taxpayers who have been hit by the green-power mania. The Globe and Mailreported in February that 10 wind- and solar-equipment makers in China, India, Europe and the U.S. have seen their share prices collapse by between price of their shares collapse by between 85 per cent and 98 per cent since 2008. A combination of ineffectual environmental benefit, escalating power costs and debilitating government deficits have driven a precipitous drop in the outlook for green-power subsidies.

The lessons of the green-power debacle are clear. For governments, the message is that forcing consumers and taxpayers to subsidize any business almost always leads to economic damage and political unpopularity. For investors, the lesson is that companies living on government subsidies may die when the handouts stop.

[pierrelebel]

Valve - do you agree with those well meaning but slightly off base individuals?

'Such a move would cause electricity rates to rise 35 per cent over that time, but the Ontario Clean Air Alliance argues that higher power costs would encourage more homeowners and businesses to conserve energy and force industry to operate more efficiently."

[valve37]

Why wouldn't you, it's fact and is happening now. Les needed some brushing up but you do live in Ontario don't you?

[nuvistors]

---

@pierrelebel wrote:

Valve - do you agree with those well meaning but slightly off base individuals?

'Such a move would cause electricity rates to rise 35 per cent over that time, but the Ontario Clean Air Alliance argues that higher power costs would encourage more homeowners and businesses to conserve energy and force industry to operate more efficiently."

---

Several areas in Ontario have increased the cost of electricity because the consumers conserved power and reduced the profit for the utility.   Toronto Hydro  received an increase for this few years ago .

[nuvistors]

March 21, 2007 14:06 ET

Toronto Hydro-Electric System Files Application For Distribution Rates Increase

TORONTO, ONTARIO--(CCNMatthews - March 21, 2007) - Toronto Hydro-Electric System Limited, a subsidiary of Toronto Hydro Corporation, has filed a Rate Application with its regulator, the Ontario Energy Board (OEB). The Application is seeking an increase of 6.3% on Toronto Hydro's electricity distribution rates effective May 1, 2007. If approved, the average residential customer using 1000 kilowatt hours per month would see an increase of $2.07 per month. This is a 1.7% overall increase on the total bill.
The increase is to recover costs for lost revenue and utility incentives due to very successful conservation programs in 2005 and 2006 and for the recovery of costs related to the purchase and installation of smart meters in accordance with the Province of Ontario's smart meter initiative.

[nuvistors]

You can see that the Ontario electricity plan is a No-wynne situation.

People conserve power and the rates go up 

People do not conserve power and the rates go up!

And the people with the solar and windmills are laughing all the way to the bank.

[pierrelebel]

"rates effective May 1, 2007"

That is old news.

[pierrelebel]

Cost of hydro is going up - let's blame the governments.

First the conservatives since they are the ones who decided to break up the old Ontario Hydro and let private enterprises make a profit by generating power, then the Liberals who promoted clean (more expensive) energy, etc... the cycle continues.

This discussion lead me to take a look at facts, real facts as I know them, as they affect me.

We have lived in the same house for seventeen years.

My electricity costs in 2007 totaled $1,462.67 including GST (5%)

My electricity costs in 2013 totaled $1,614.72 including HST (13%)

The net out-of-pocket cost increase, including the higher tax, over six years was $152.05 or 10.4% (less than 2% a year).

How does that compare to you?  In Ontario?  In other provinces?

[nuvistors]

How much of that was subsidized by the taxpayer?

How much of the obscene payment to solar and windmills was paid from  tax funds ?

[pierrelebel]

Wrong questions.

Real question: How many millions of dollars in profit was paid to businesses generating power for resale to Ontario Hydro when that money was kept by Ontario Hydro - owned by all citizens of Ontario - before Conservative Premier Harris broke up Ontario Hydro?

That is where the real problem starts.

http://www.canpension.ca/pages/archives/mar11/hydro.html

http://www.telusplanet.net/public/afl/LabourNews/feb02-20.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Harris

"One part of the Common Sense Revolution was to sell off various government-owned enterprises, the largest of which were to be Ontario Hydro and the Liquor Control Board of Ontario.

Neither was actually sold off, but Ontario Hydro was split into five successor companies (the two largest being Ontario Power Generation and Hydro One, representing generation and distribution of power respectively) with the plan of eventually selling them off.

Public opposition to the sale of these money-making government enterprises postponed the government's plans.

In 1999, Highway 407 was leased to a private consortium in the largest such scheme to privatize the management of a public asset in Canadian history