eBay

sylviebee · ‎11-17-2016

I've posted about this before and I'm still not sure how to deal with this.

One recent version of eBay's messages to buyers when the seller has accepted the return is as follows:

""The seller is responsible for return shipping charges. Contact the seller for a return shipping label. If they can't provide one, you can purchase a label, and we'll ask the seller to reimburse you."""

I'm being instructed to pay for the label and then trust that the seller will reimburse me later. I have no idea when "later" is. Is that prior to shipping when I can still cancel the label if things don't come together, or after the seller receives the return?

Does that ever work?

Does eBay reimburse buyers when sellers refuse to do so?

I've read about instances here when sellers promise to pay for return shipping when the item is received but then refuses to do so and buyers are just left out in the cold by eBay.

momcqueen · ‎11-17-2016

When I was reviewing the Returns terms recently, I remember reading that if ebay has to reimburse the buyer for Return postage, it will add that amount to the seller's monthly bill.

I had a SNAD happen for the first time ever last month, a legitimate one. The buyer contacted me after she received her order to state that she had gotten the wrong version of what she bought. This was my first actual screw-up in 1500+ orders dispatched. I was aghast, but I didn't doubt her, and I apologized profusely. She was based in the USA so I took the dimensions and weight of the box I sent and priced out the cost on USPS ($15.50 USD) and then sent her that link and a refund for $25.00 CAD just to make sure I covered it including the currency conversion. Sure enough, she bought the return postage the next morning while I mailed her the item she should have gotten and everything turned out fine in the end, I made certain of that. Extra free gifts et cetera.

But that was me, the seller, taking ownership of my mistake and facilitating the return to the best of my ability to do so. I even told my buyer to open a Returns case so we could both track the progress via the ebay system but she declined, saying she thought that might get me into trouble. So it was all handled outside of the actual Returns process.

The moral of my story for other sellers is to always look with your eyes to see what you actually have placed in your ready-for-speedy-dispatch-pre-packed-box. I had this item pre-packed and ready to go from the point in time it was listed, but I grabbed the wrong box (duh) and then when I looked inside to confirm the contents, I saw only what I expected to see and not what was really inside.

But you are coming at this from the perspective of the buyer. That is different.

The buyer is put in a somewhat tenuous position with a SNAD if the Return is international and the seller is reluctant.

But I think you can only do as ebay has directed you to do and that is to buy that Return label and expect to be reimbursed for it when you are refunded for the rest. It would make sense if it was sooner than that, however, like as soon as tracking showed it was returned but that might be too optimistic to expect from this process. It may also depend on whether you call ebay Customer Service to demand a refund on your postage spent sooner rather than later.

Keep us appraised as to how this plays out, okay?

sylviebee · ‎11-17-2016

The seller accepted the return and agreed to pay return shipping (not really but that's what she clicked her way into).

However, she emailed to tell me that she will not pay return shipping just as her listing says.

She's told me to call eBay and they will cover it. 🙂

I already know that she's not going to willingly pay return shipping without a fight.

I do everything I can to avoid this. I specifically asked the seller about possible damage I saw and she told me that it was just a tiny bit of fraying. Turns out that some took crazy glue to an antique purse to fix the damage rendering it worthless.

momcqueen · ‎11-17-2016

I see. So she's arguing it's SNAD. There's nothing to be gained by her doing that.

sylviebee · ‎11-17-2016

No, she's not arguing that it's SNAD. She knows what she did. Sellers still think they can away with this kind of thing (i.e. telling buyers whatever it takes to sell the item gambling that buyers will opt not to return because of shipping costs).

Plugging that hole was one of the best things eBay has done for buyers.

She's just saying that she won't pay return shipping.

Just got off the phone with eBay.

The seller and I have until Monday to reach an agreement and then she has another 5 days to send me the funds.

If that doesn't happen they'll refund my payment.

The eBay rep also told me that they will send out messages directly to the seller that she has to take care of things or they will close her account if they have to dip in to make things right, so that puts the pressure on.

One thing they've made clear to me a number of times is that they do not have authority to take return shipping costs out of the buyer's account.

Therefore, buying a label and expecting reimbursement at a later date from the seller is probably never gonna happen.

They do have authority to refund the initial payment.

That's just as it always was. Where it's confusing is when they keep changing the wording in their messages so it's never quite clear what's happening because they change things up so frequently.

momcqueen · ‎11-17-2016

Huh. Interesting. If she's admitted its SNAD then what makes her think she can flout eBay policy? Is that what I'm to understand is happening here? Adding postage cost to the monthly sell fees isn't taking money from an account, it's adding it to an existing bill.

sylviebee · ‎11-17-2016

mj. I've also heard that they add shipping costs to the sellers fees (maybe from you?), but I've also been told more than once that eBay does not have the authority to dip into a seller's account for return shipping costs.

The two concepts contradict each other.

This seller is telling me that her listing says that buyers pay return shipping so it's not her problem.

The key point that eBay made to me is "Do not to Buy the Label and expect to be reimbursed at a later date" because it's probably not gonna happen.

That's especially true in a case like mine when the seller is making it clear that she won't pay return shipping.

momcqueen · ‎11-17-2016

It's not dipping. It's adding.

momcqueen · ‎11-17-2016

But I can't argue this, I haven't had the first-hand conversations.

sylviebee · ‎11-17-2016

mj. I think that the take away is not to gamble and buy the label with one's own funds hoping they'll reimburse you and add the money to the seller's fees unless eBay has specifically told you in writing that they will do so.

They might, but who knows?

momcqueen · ‎11-17-2016

When you end up in a conflict with another member over a Resolution Centre case, the only thing to do -- regardless of whether you are the buyer of the seller -- is make sure you understand EXACTLY what ebay is telling you to do and then do it. It seems like the subtleties of how this happens is changing underfoot making it a slippery path, but it's all that a member can do. Clarify and then follow orders. Period. It sounds as if you have done that.

pjcdn2005 · ‎11-18-2016

@sylviebee wrote:
I've posted about this before and I'm still not sure how to deal with this.

One recent version of eBay's messages to buyers when the seller has accepted the return is as follows:

""The seller is responsible for return shipping charges. Contact the seller for a return shipping label. If they can't provide one, you can purchase a label, and we'll ask the seller to reimburse you."""

I'm being instructed to pay for the label and then trust that the seller will reimburse me later. I have no idea when "later" is. Is that prior to shipping when I can still cancel the label if things don't come together, or after the seller receives the return?

Does that ever work?
Does eBay reimburse buyers when sellers refuse to do so?

I've read about instances here when sellers promise to pay for return shipping when the item is received but then refuses to do so and buyers are just left out in the cold by eBay.

I don't understand why they show that message because it's misleading. Sure they can ask the seller to reimburse you for the return label but they can't force them to do so. If eBay generates the shipping label which they can only do if you are both in the US then they can bill the seller. They can't do so if you purchase the label yourself.

From the MBG...

Either we generate a return shipping label or the seller can provide a label. We add the cost of an eBay-generated label to the seller's monthly eBay invoice.

Its possible that eBay would reimburse you but based on what I've read on the boards and in the MBG that's unlikely to happen.

When a return shipping label is made available to the buyer and/or the buyer chooses to purchase a separate label, the buyer won't be refunded by eBay for the cost of the label.

momcqueen · ‎11-18-2016

The bottom passage refers to something different: when a buyer buys their own instead of using the one given to them.

And I do have to disagree with the way you are interpreting the top section. If eBay can add the cost of a return label to our monthly invoice, they can do it for any Return label. Period. It doesn't specify one kind while excluding the other.

I think we'd be best served by asking Raphael at Board Hour about this. It's got to be an issue that affects many Canadian buyers and sellers.

sylviebee · ‎11-18-2016

The message eBay sends to buyers after the seller has agreed to a return for a SNAD item for over-the border returns is constantly being altered. Yes, the notice that eBay is currently sending out is very misleading. It's almost seems as if they are purposely making the message ambiguous.

I think that they are constantly refining the process and what was true last week might not be accurate this week.

However, they are very serious about forcing sellers to get those funds to buyers and the notice they are currently sending to sellers who refuse to send the funds must be very potent.

After flatly refusing to send the funds, the seller sent the money for return shipping.

momcqueen · ‎11-18-2016

I think eBay realizes this is the Achilles heel in their Returns process. I don't doubt they're working on a solution.

pjcdn2005 · ‎11-18-2016

@mjwl2006 wrote:
The bottom passage refers to something different: when a buyer buys their own instead of using the one given to them.
And I do have to disagree with the way you are interpreting the top section. If eBay can add the cost of a return label to our monthly invoice, they can do it for any Return label. Period. It doesn't specify one kind while excluding the other.
I think we'd be best served by asking Raphael at Board Hour about this. It's got to be an issue that affects many Canadian buyers and sellers.

The bottom passages uses and/or so it can read as ....

When a return label is made available to the buyer OR they choose to purchase their own....the cost won't be covered

Obviously in an international situation it isn't so much that the buyer 'chooses' to purchase their own label since one can't be issued but basically in every situation that's I'm aware of, a buyer was not reimbursed when they bought their own label if the seller refused to do so on their own.

I'm not giving any special interpretation to the top section. It species thst the seller will be charged if an eBay generated label is used. It doesn't say that the seller will be charged regardless. They will only charge the seller if the label is seller or eBay generated. Imagine if a buyer decided to send back an item with an overnight service and then expected the seller to pay...

If the seller refuses to send the buyer money for the label ahead of time and the buyer asks eBay to step in, eBay does have the option of telling the seller that they will have to refund without a return. That may be why the seller in this situation changed their tune.

The eBay user agreement..

The cost of return shipping for an item that is not as described is the seller's responsibility.

You (as seller) authorize eBay to place the return shipping label cost on your invoice, subject to your automatic payment method on file when:
An eBay-generated return shipping label is used, and the seller is responsible for its cost;
Returns have been automated; and/or
You fail to send your buyer a return shipping label and, instead, an eBay-generated shipping label is used.

If they were going to charge sellers for a buyer generated return labels they would have that stated here. But they quite specifically mention eBay generated labels only.

Obviously there is a big hole in the way they handle non US sellers and buyers when dealing with return labels. The way it is right now is confusing and not fair to seller or buyer.

femmefan1946 · ‎11-18-2016

I think eBay realizes this is the Achilles heel in their Returns process. I don't doubt they're working on a solution.

That's adorable.

I'm in grouchy old lady mode today.

BTW- I got a parcel from Lee Valley Tools today (they have very effective fruit fly traps) and there was return shipping label already on the parcel! Interesting.

sylviebee · ‎11-18-2016

@pjcdn2005 wrote:
If the seller refuses to send the buyer money for the label ahead of time and the buyer asks eBay to step in, eBay does have the option of telling the seller that they will have to refund without a return. That may be why the seller in this situation changed their tune.

It's possible that they also told her they'd refund without the return, but the eBay rep told me that they would send her a notice stating that if she didn't co-operate that their account will be terminated.

Either one alone would have been enough to encourage her to send the funds. In fact, she sent extra to make sure it was covered.

(I must have missed a post because I'm not sure which various passages are being referred to.)

momcqueen · ‎11-18-2016

@pjcdn2005 wrote:
@mjwl2006 wrote:
The bottom passage refers to something different: when a buyer buys their own instead of using the one given to them.
And I do have to disagree with the way you are interpreting the top section. If eBay can add the cost of a return label to our monthly invoice, they can do it for any Return label. Period. It doesn't specify one kind while excluding the other.
I think we'd be best served by asking Raphael at Board Hour about this. It's got to be an issue that affects many Canadian buyers and sellers.
The bottom passages uses and/or so it can read as ....
When a return label is made available to the buyer OR they choose to purchase their own....the cost won't be covered
Obviously in an international situation it isn't so much that the buyer 'chooses' to purchase their own label since one can't be issued but basically in every situation that's I'm aware of, a buyer was not reimbursed when they bought their own label if the seller refused to do so on their own.

I'm not giving any special interpretation to the top section. It species thst the seller will be charged if an eBay generated label is used. It doesn't say that the seller will be charged regardless. They will only charge the seller if the label is seller or eBay generated. Imagine if a buyer decided to send back an item with an overnight service and then expected the seller to pay...

If the seller refuses to send the buyer money for the label ahead of time and the buyer asks eBay to step in, eBay does have the option of telling the seller that they will have to refund without a return. That may be why the seller in this situation changed their tune.

The eBay user agreement..

The cost of return shipping for an item that is not as described is the seller's responsibility.
You (as seller) authorize eBay to place the return shipping label cost on your invoice, subject to your automatic payment method on file when:
An eBay-generated return shipping label is used, and the seller is responsible for its cost;
Returns have been automated; and/or
You fail to send your buyer a return shipping label and, instead, an eBay-generated shipping label is used.

If they were going to charge sellers for a buyer generated return labels they would have that stated here. But they quite specifically mention eBay generated labels only.

Obviously there is a big hole in the way they handle non US sellers and buyers when dealing with return labels. The way it is right now is confusing and not fair to seller or buyer.

Ebay-generated? If ebay has to step in and strong-arm a label for the buyer on behalf of an uncooperative seller, that is just as 'ebay-generated' as a domestic regular return label. If not more so.

pjcdn2005 · ‎11-19-2016

Post 12 has the quotes being referred to. Mj made her comments in the following post.

It sounds like the cs rep is out to lunch, was just trying to sound important or else there is much more to this sellers history that we are aware of. eBay doesn't close accounts just because a seller doesn't pay for s return label...they give the seller a defect. If the rep did actually write that to the seller, I have my doubts that they would follow through unless the seller was already on the edge of being suspended.