eBay

ut.babe · ‎09-02-2013

Another thread on the GSP but the more the merrier.... maybe they will get the message. These comments are based on my own experience and opinions.

I purchased a figurine that arrived with minimal packing material and single boxed. I asked the seller how he had packaged it ... he said it was in its original manufacturers box, double boxed with lots of packaing. He was shocked to hear it arrived in a single box - the manufacturers box was missing - and minimal packing.

Upon complaint, ebay (Paypal) answer was to refund me the SELLERS shipping cost, not Pitney Bowes (the GSP provider they use), thereby stinging the seller who was in no way responsible.

Another item was switched from a box to an envelope. Thank heavens it was unbreakable.

Also, 98% of the items I buy cross-border (I'm in Canada) would not even be valued for customs duty, their price is too low. Yet the GSP charges it anyway.

My guess and opinion? Pitney Bowes is repackaging items to lower the weight and the end cost of their shipping, plus pocketing the excessive customs duties. What other reason for repackaging items?

Plus you pay for the seller to ship to them, and then for them to ship to the buyer. AND you often have to purchase before knowing the end cost - is that even legal? And then you are on the hook for the item anyway.

The only people happy with this is Pitney Bowes - they are getting rich off this unbelievable scam. I will not use them for anything ever, and have in fact chosen to not use them for my business either. I have returned all the shipping equipment I had from them and refuse to deal with them on any level.

I WILL NOT PURCHASE FROM SELLERS USING THE GSP PROGRAM... EVER. I'd rather do without.

Many times when I explain why I'd love to buy from them but don't the seller is unaware of the issues and takes the item OFF the GSP (Yes they can do this!) Then I purchase 🙂 So buyers, check with your sellers, give them the chance to accomodate. I can understand it simplifying their shipping but they don't realize the cost.

Wake up Ebay and wake up sellers to the stupidity of this scheme. Its costing you buyers.

I have been buying on ebay for 13 years and have close to 2900 100% feedbacks. I purchase everything under the sun on here but have started looking elsewhere to find the items I need - even if I pay a little more. I just will not support this program in any way, shape or form.

marnotom! · ‎09-03-2013

@i*m-stilll-here wrote:

Comparing shipping costs between and among sellers who ship with or without the GSP is of no consequence and tells you very little.
It might help you choose which item to buy, but it is not a barometer by which to compare costs of GSP and non-GSP shipped items.

I'm not entirely sure I understand you here, but an important thing to keep in mind is that shipping charges with the GSP include the seller's domestic shipping charge for sending the item to the Global Shipping Center in Kentucky. Depending on the item, this can have quite an effect on the GSP shipping charge to Canada.

I just looked at the first two search results that came up for me when I looked for the new Nokia 1020 Windows Phone and while both sellers use the GSP, there's over US$10 difference in shipping rates between the two listings because one seller offers "free" domestic shipping.

Another point to consider is that the Global Shipping Program isn't suitable for what most Canadians buy on eBay: modestly priced, lightweight items that can be shipped fairly economically and safely to Canada by First Class International, Small Packet, air mail letter, or whatever else you want to call it. If shipping small (i.e. < 2 kg) items internationally by letter mail wasn't an option, I think we'd be looking at a completely different ballgame in terms of shipping costs comparison. Most commercial carriers don't have provisions for shipping smaller items economically. There's the option of ground shipping to Canada, of course, but that leaves the recipient open to all sorts of import charges that make the GSP look like a bargain in comparison.

The catch is, of course, that most Canadians won't even contemplate purchasing a larger (or even small but pricey) item on eBay because once the shipping cost gets factored into the total price, it's simply not cost-effective and they might as well try to find the item domestically in some sort of brick and mortar environment.

For what it's worth, I just found a U.S. seller offering that same Smartphone with USPS Priority Mail International shipping to Canada. Their shipping rate is US$78 and change. The GSP sellers I referred to earlier have shipping rates of US$18.90 and US$29.83.

pierrelebel · ‎09-03-2013

This need to be repeated often:

the Global Shipping Program isn't suitable for what most Canadians buy on eBay.

marnotom! · ‎09-03-2013

@pierrelebel wrote:
This need to be repeated often:

the Global Shipping Program isn't suitable for what most Canadians buy on eBay.

What also needs to be repeated often on the .com boards is that if the item is a good candidate for shipping internationally by First Class International, it likely isn't a good candidate for shipping through the Global Shipping Program.

i*m-stilll-here · ‎09-03-2013

marnotom!......... to do a statistically meaningful comparison of shipping costs with and without the GSP, one has compare a single seller's shipping cost with and without the GSP.

(Take the import fees out of the equation (of course).)

You cannot compare shipping cost between or among sellers and get a meaningful result.

That kind of comparison should help you decide which item to purchase if you are looking for the most bang for you buck.....

BUT a comparison among sellers does not tell you if shipping cost is lower or higher with or without the GSP.

In other words.

If a single seller's shipping quote to you is higher with the GSP than without, then that is evidence that shipping via the GSP is more expensive than shipping without the GSP

Conversely:

If a single seller's shipping quote to you is lower with the GSP than without, then that is evidence that shipping via the GSP is less expensive than shipping without the GSP.

Do that comparison with multiple subjects and then analyze the results and you'll have meaningful data.

That said: If you can't find even a single seller who ships for less via the GSP there is no point in proceeding with the experiment as the conclusion is foregone.

I have yet to stumble upon such a seller, but he or she may exist.

marnotom! · ‎09-03-2013

I don't think you necessarily have to compare a GSP and non-GSP shipping rates for the same seller of the same item. You just have to have some familiarity with USPS's rate structure and how to use its rate calculator.

There's absolutely no way that USPS would allow an $800 Smartphone to be shipped by First Class International unless the item's value is declared at less than US$400.

And there's absolutely no way that one can ship an item the size of a packaged Smartphone by international parcel post (Priority) for less than $19.

I will concede that the seller using USPS that I used as an example may be über-packaging the phone, though.

i*m-stilll-here · ‎09-03-2013

@marnotom! wrote:
There's absolutely no way that USPS would allow an $800 Smartphone to be shipped by First Class International unless the item's value is declared at less than US$400.

Completely different topic............ and unrelated to the GSP discussion.

BUT.......... since you mentioned it...............

It happens all the time and items are declared correctly.

While I'm aware of that value restriction for FCI, I'm surprised that so few American sellers are and freely offer FCI for items valued over $500.

Happens all the time and as far as I can tell the USPS doesn't have the time or inclination to care.

marnotom! · ‎09-03-2013

Have you ever received a First Class International package valued at over US$400?

i*m-stilll-here · ‎09-03-2013

@marnotom! wrote:
Have you ever received a First Class International package valued at over US$400?

Many.

i*m-stilll-here · ‎09-03-2013

marnotom!.......... Now it's my trun to ask you a question.

You seem intensely interested in the GSP.

Why is that?

It's clear why most other posters have an interest.

I can't put my finger on why you care to this extent as you don't seem to be buying on eBay.

I thought you were a P-B rep for quite some time but you say you're not.

Why the intense nvolvement?

marnotom! · ‎09-03-2013

I usually hang out on the .com site's International Trading Board and as you can imagine there have been a lot of threads about the GSP on it.

I've been trying to get a sense of the concerns my fellow Canucks have with the GSP to bring back to the IT Board.

The problem seems to be that a lot of the issues that people have with the GSP are due to ignorance of how logistics companies work, as well as some erroneous assumptions about how and why personal imports are subject to the fees they are.

I don't like seeing my fellow Canucks spouting absolute nonsense on the .com boards about how the GSP is a scam, money grab, charging taxes when it shouldn't, charging "duties" when we have NAFTA, and so on and so forth. Many U.S. sellers are of the opinion that international buyers should be familiar with how personal imports are treated by customs and posts like these don't do much to convince reluctant international sellers that most international buyers aren't all that bad or ignorant.

As I keep saying over and over again and what seems to get overlooked or forgotten is that I don't like the GSP either and I have no plans on using it as a buyer in the foreseeable future. However, people seem to be finding fault with the GSP for doing its job and coming up with all sorts of irrelevant or erroneous reasons why it's worse than mouldy sliced bread.

Back to your previous point, I'm glad you've successfully received a number of First Class International packages with stated declared values of over US$400. Most sellers on .com don't suggest that sellers do this, and this seems to be borne out by a number of threads about "over the limit" First Class International packages never reaching an international sorting centre. How representative these posts are of the experience as a whole is anybody's guess.

Question for you, now: Why do you seem unwilling to acknowledge that for heavier or higher-priced items, the GSP might be a better way to go once issues with refunds and accountability are dealt with?

i*m-stilll-here · ‎09-03-2013

marmotom!. You didn't answer my question.

You're not buying or selling via the GSP.

So why the intense interest?

You don't have to point out that you are not a buyer.

That's very clear............. and Trust Me: Frequent buyers know exactly how personal imports are treated by customs.

We are also very much in tune with actual (not theoretical) shipping costs for items which we buy on a regular basis.

What I've pointed out time and time again is that the GSP makes an already difficult shopping experience more difficult.

Do you really think the posters here upset with the GSP care one bit if shipping costs are lower for a few select items?

I sure don't.

That's why I haven't commented.

marnotom! · ‎09-03-2013

You keep saying that the GSP makes shopping "more difficult" but you've never explained what you mean by that.

There's really no point in my continuing this conversation if you're going to remain obtuse and at the same time not read my posts closely enough to get the answers you're seeking. I don't know how you make the leap from my statement that I don't plan on purchasing anything through the GSP to a conclusion that I'm not a buyer, for example.

Good luck to you and with your "difficult" purchases.

classicspeedparts · ‎09-04-2013

This really isn't rocket science. I'm a seller. About 20% of my sales are international. I charge a nominal fee which is clearly stated on my auctions. That fee pretty much changes from item to item. The fee covers the addition 1% that PayPal charges me for international sales and the 8% eBay charges me on postage over the US rate. I ship at the discounted rate I get at the USPS web site. No padding! The shipping I paid is clearly shown on the customs documents. I've been the subject of forums on at least 5 overseas forums and as a result, many of my international buyers don't even ask for a shipping quote before buying. Down to business.

If there is anything obtuse here, it is the thought process of those defending GSP. It costs the same to ship from California to Australia as it does from Kentucky to Australia. If I have to ship a package from California to GSP in Kentucky, I'm not footing the bill. My buyer is. Let's assume a 30 pound package with a value of $1000. These are NOT uncommon numbers for me. My buyer will pay about $35-40 for the ride to Kentucky, and then at least the same price for the shipping to Australia that I would charge. The difference is that my buyer is not paying the additional $35-40 that he would pay for me to ship it to PB. If there are duties to be paid on it, they would also be charged additional fees for that extra $35-40 dollars shipping. If that's not bad enough, many countries, I know Canada is one, don't charge customs on vintage auto parts. That is, they don't get charged unless it goes GSP, where PB takes it no matter what.

Why would I sc*ew over my customers like that? Those of you who think it's smart to use GSP for heavier items are also dead wrong. I particularly don't want minimum wage, knuckle dragging employees of PB repackaging my stuff, and in about 400 international sales, I've only had one item damaged (You don't want to get me started on New Zealand Postal Service.). I value my customers. I sell what I sell because I enjoy doing it. Believe me, it's not the money. That's just an added bonus. I advise any buyer out of the US to run as fast as you can from any US seller using GSP.

i*m-still-here · ‎09-04-2013

Thank You Classics............ for stating the obvious. I agree it's not rocket science.

marnotom!..............

I haven't elaborated on my statement that "The GSP makes an already difficult shopping experience more difficult" because I thought the meaning of that statement was clear.

However.......... since you asked I'll explain further.

When I see an item I want to buy or bid on I recognize that at a glance.

As long as the item description doesn't reveal hidden damage............. I'm good to go..............

EXCEPT that I then have to deal with the DREADED F-PHRASE OF EBAY: "The Cost of Shipping."

Since I've been buying for a long time I already know before-hand exactly how much is reasonable and how much is excessive.

A few sellers plug a cost in and if it's reasonable ......... we're good to go..............but that's always a pleasant surprise and not the norm.

More Common:

1) A high shipping cost to be negotiated (and it almost always is brought into line upon asking).

2) No cost posted ............... and I have to email the seller.

3) Now......... items listed via the GSP............ yet another hurdle with new challenges unique to the GSP to overcome.

It's not that the GSP creates the problem, but it adds to an existing problem.

That's what I'm talkin' about.

marnotom! · ‎09-04-2013

@classicspeedparts wrote:

If there is anything obtuse here, it is the thought process of those defending GSP. It costs the same to ship from California to Australia as it does from Kentucky to Australia. If I have to ship a package from California to GSP in Kentucky, I'm not footing the bill. My buyer is. Let's assume a 30 pound package with a value of $1000. These are NOT uncommon numbers for me. My buyer will pay about $35-40 for the ride to Kentucky, and then at least the same price for the shipping to Australia that I would charge. The difference is that my buyer is not paying the additional $35-40 that he would pay for me to ship it to PB. If there are duties to be paid on it, they would also be charged additional fees for that extra $35-40 dollars shipping. If that's not bad enough, many countries, I know Canada is one, don't charge customs on vintage auto parts. That is, they don't get charged unless it goes GSP, where PB takes it no matter what.

Larry (kariandlarrysales, who I had respond to Pierre's post from yesterday about how the GSP functions from a seller's standpoint), a regular on the .com site's International Trading Board, conducted some actual experiments with test listings for heavier items using the GSP and found that there were some real savings to Australia using it versus USPS and slight savings for shipping to Canada versus a straight USPS shipment. If you've done some experiments and have come up with different findings, I'd be happy to see them. If you're questioning Larry's results, you may want to start a thread on the .com site's International Trading Board.

I think what may be tripping you up is that you may be assuming that the cost of shipping the item from Kentucky to Australia through the GSP would be the same as what it would cost you to do the same, and that's not necessarily the case. However, you don't state what shipping method you generally use for shipping to Australia so I can't be certain of this.

As for the issue of customs fees, like some Canadians you seem to be confusing duties with taxes. Think of the taxes that Canadians should be paying on personal imports to be like the Use Taxes in your country that 40 plus U.S. states charge for out of state purchases, except that they're collected differently.

marnotom! · ‎09-04-2013

@i*m-still-here wrote:

I haven't elaborated on my statement that "The GSP makes an already difficult shopping experience more difficult" because I thought the meaning of that statement was clear.
However.......... since you asked I'll explain further.

When I see an item I want to buy or bid on I recognize that at a glance.

As long as the item description doesn't reveal hidden damage............. I'm good to go..............

>EXCEPT that I then have to deal with the DREADED F-PHRASE OF EBAY: "The Cost of Shipping."

>Since I've been buying for a long time I already know before-hand exactly how much is reasonable and how much is excessive.
A few sellers plug a cost in and if it's reasonable ......... we're good to go..............but that's always a pleasant surprise and not the norm.

More Common:

1) A high shipping cost to be negotiated (and it almost always is brought into line upon asking).

2) No cost posted ............... and I have to email the seller.

3) Now......... items listed via the GSP............ yet another hurdle with new challenges unique to the GSP to overcome.

It's not that the GSP creates the problem, but it adds to an existing problem.

That's what I'm talkin' about.

Okay, thanks for the elaboration. However, to my thinking, what you're describing isn't a "difficulty" or a "problem" but simply the nature of buying on eBay. Many "problems" we have are simply created between our own two ears, and quite frankly I just see all of what you described as part of the process of buying on eBay. Perhaps it's also because I deal with this process differently.

Excessive shipping charges? Give the listing a miss and find another seller. This may not be as easy to accomplish with the types of items that you purchase, but perhaps you're one of the exceptions to the eBay Canada buyer profile of a purchaser of modestly-priced, small-ish items.

No shipping price listed? Again, give the seller a miss. If the seller does specify shipping to Canada and they can't be bothered to give a shipping rate, they're likely not all that customer-service focussed and may give me a rough ride if there's a problem after I've committed to purchasing the item.

(Also keep in mind that sellers who don't list a shipping rate to Canada will be charged full Final Value Fees for whatever they charge for shipping to Canada. The FVF won't be based on the seller's first domestic shipping rate.)

Your point about the GSP is a bit vague, though. I'm assuming you're referring to the process of getting the seller to remove the GSP from their listing, although I can't be certain about this. I'd probably just fire off a quick email to the seller explaining why they won't get my business and find a different seller instead or wait it out and see if they relist without it.

ut.babe · ‎09-04-2013

To classicspeedparts

"My buyer will pay about $35-40 for the ride to Kentucky, and then at least the same price for the shipping to Australia that I would charge."

THANK YOU ! It is great to have a seller weigh in on this.

This is true. There are two shipping charges as opposed to one.

From eBay's own description of the GSP program :

“International priority shipping” (or “Shipping”): this Program Fee consists of charges associated with the parcel processing and shipping services described above and is comprised of the following variable amounts: your Seller's shipping charges to ship your order to the U.S. Shipping Center; third party international shipping charges to ship your order from the U.S. Shipping Center to your designated delivery address; fuel surcharges; charges for selling, general, and administrative expenses, hardware, software development and licenses, operations, and hosting by Pitney Bowes; charges from third party parcel processing service providers and for the management of the parcel processing service providers and related software systems; charges relating to the management of insurance for lost or damaged items; charges for operational expenses associated with short-term loss recovery and the management of variances between the quoted Shipping amount and actual costs; and any referral fees paid by Pitney Bowes to eBay for referring you to the Program." (and so on and so on and so on)

I have to wonder how it can ever possibly be cheaper to pay to have an item enter the shipping stream twice instead of once on any occasion? I can't see how it ever would.

classicspeedparts, I also noticed you mentioning you don't want your items repackaged... have you had this happen or know of it happening? BTW all, the repackaging was what this thread was all about?

And in my first experience with the GSP, the PB shipping/duty cost wasn't even on the sellers invoice (a fact the ebay customer servers rep I spoke to didn't believe till I sent her the screenshot of the invoice). Upon paying that invoice it automatically took a second payment from my Paypal account for the PB shipping/duty/taxes/whatever fee.

And you gotta love their little caveate (just a little side point, not really part of the discussion - I just find it cute) :

Relationship between eBay and Pitney Bowes. eBay Inc. (“eBay”) and Pitney Bowes are independent contractors and have entered into an agreement with one another in order to make the above-described Services available to you in connection with your use of the eBay.com website. However, eBay is not providing any of the Services, and Pitney Bowes is neither owned by, nor affiliated with, eBay. (Way to distance yourself from the issues eBay! Nice job!)

And since I'm posting again, to answer your previous post marnotom! :

"I don't claim that my homework is perfect, but I've tried reading through the GSP agreement and help page to get a sense of how it might work. I've also tried reading up on Pitney Bowes itself. Have you?" [Yes I have, plus talked to ebay reps on the phone a few times - not that it was of any benefit, and I'm not ragging on them I just don't think even they understand it.]

"Google "Does Pitney Bowes Have a Fighting Chance?" sometime soon." [Yes again - not to googling it, but having read of their issues - though I fail to see the fact that they are failing has anything to do with what is going on here, unless this is an excuse for their poor service - but I don't even want to discuss that so don't even start please, gawd. Really.. if PB can't run themselves properly then thats their issue, not mine, and to be honest I don't even care.]

"I usually hang out on the .com site's International Trading Board and as you can imagine there have been a lot of threads about the GSP on it.

I've been trying to get a sense of the concerns my fellow Canucks have with the GSP to bring back to the IT Board."

I assume you mean ebay.com.

Shouldn't the International Trading Board be monitoring this board themselves for issues.. if they even give a darn? And if they don't then that tells us how much they care doesn't it.

You folks have taken a lot of left and right turns in this thread, but I'll post a few of my thoughts on duties, taxes and such.

While many people are not well informed on these things it is also true that many buyers who ARE up to snuff on it would rather take their chances with Canada Post and customs and if they get charged the fees then so be it... you pay them. I have never begrudged paying them when charged, I usually know whats going to get charged and expect it anyway. But I would rather pay my fees myself when the item arrives, thanks. Most informed people would not - or should not - argue the fact that there is the potential to be charged these fees, many of us just don't want to be forced to pay them up front. There is a lot of resentment that eBay and PB are seemingly forcing this with this program. Let Canada Customs do their own job basically, and if they bill us, they bill us. Roll the dice, I'm in. I don't need or want PB to be my 'importing conscience' lol.

What I myself don't like about the GSP?

I don't like the double shipping cost - and I REALLY dislike that they repackage items with what appears to be no regard for the care or fragility of the item, or the fact that the original packaging it was in is often part of its VALUE, depending on the item. If the packaging is damaged, stick a note on it like Canada Post does, like Customs does, like FedEx does so the person knows why you did it and for heavens sake pack it like the seller originally did!

Now I want to share some thoughts on the responses that a lot of posts on these forums get - about the GSP in particular but it also applies to other threads :

It is true many buyers aren't up to snuff on the cost of import duties, taxes, etc. etc. And they make a lot of uninformed posts about it. By and large people are just trying to buy something they want, thats all it is, and they get frustrated. Big deal. So they vent.

The annoying thing about a few of the forum trolls here is that every time someone posts its like "did you read this? did you go check this? you obviously don't know what you're talking about" all over them - newsflash... they are just peeps venting off. They aren't in court giving testimony and there is no judge or jury here - though some act like it. They don't have to say an oath to have done this or read that or the other thing and you don't need to 'swear in' on a forum to relate an anecdotal experience!

Its ok to try to help out with information and what appears to be misconception but If people want to know what if they have gone and read something can it not be asked or done nicely? The number of abrupt, short questions here often come off as harsh, even accusatory, even if not intended to.

I can't imagine how many read these forums and decide not to post anything ever for fear of getting jumped all over by others, so intimidating.... And thats sad. Some posts are very helpful and wonderful and then others are so downright demanding and condescending... And before anyone makes any comment about my forum knowledge.. I am a PAID moderator for a number of corporate forums and the stuff that goes on here wouldn't be even permitted on a lot of them. Hence my comment earlier about rarely posting on these types of forums.

Its a general observation and I'm not naming people or pointing fingers. I just wanted to get that off my chest and didn't feel like starting another thread 🙂

K, I need a nap after all that 😉

i*m-still-here · ‎09-04-2013

I want to thank you ut-babe for posting.

I read your post twice. It's so refreshing to read something that makes sense.

After thread after thread of posts that are so clearly "off" this is different.

I've been posting the same points you made over and over since they introduced the GSP with no support and a lot of flack (to put it mildly) .......... so to me it feels like the voice of reason has finally arrived.

When they started going after and accusing buyers/posters of tax avoidance when they complained about he GSP ...................... I was surprised that I was the only who reacted to that nonsense.

You're right. Those new and infrequent posters left quickly too meek, intimidated, and probably dumb-struck to defend themselves.

Thanks for speaking up!

marnotom! · ‎09-04-2013

@i*m-still-here wrote:

When they started going after and accusing buyers/posters of tax avoidance when they complained about he GSP ...................... I was surprised that I was the only who reacted to that nonsense.

Probably because you misunderstood the posts. I haven't read any accusations of tax avoidance in all this discussion of the GSP.

i*m-still-here · ‎09-04-2013

@marnotom! wrote:
@i*m-still-here wrote:
When they started going after and accusing buyers/posters of tax avoidance when they complained about he GSP ...................... I was surprised that I was the only who reacted to that nonsense.

Probably because you misunderstood the posts. I haven't read any accusations of tax avoidance in all this discussion of the GSP.

I didn't misunderstand anything...............

I'm not about to go back and dredge up the posts just now.............. but it's been an ongoing theme.

Sometimes subtle, and sometimes less so................ Either way posters get the message quickly and vamoose nickety split.