eBay

sylviebee · ‎05-06-2017

Femme, I know I’m not going to change your mind about FB and trust me, I have no intention of trying to do that, but since you asked I’ll explain the way I see this and other FB issues.

Experienced and serious buyers have learned never to leave NFB because it only comes back to bite them.
Smart buyers don’t leave NFB, and crooks who are good at what they do don’t either.

Buyers who leave NFB were usually in some kind of shouting match with the seller and use NFB to land a final blow and what we see most of the time with NFB is an act of vengeance and the culmination of an exchange of nasty messages between buyer and seller.

If eBay stopped allowing members to view FB left for others we’d

1). See a lot more NFB with honest assessments of the service.

2.) Sales for good sellers would increase for two reasons. First they'd stop banning buyers who leave NFB. It gives some sellers the allusion on control but it's not real. Second, honest FB would steer buyers towards better sellers (like you) because buyers would have the opportunity to see what’s really gong on behind the scenes.

In general, the practice of leaving FB is barbaric. eBay was the first to ritualize Public Shaming with the FB process. I don’t think anyone was prepared for the power of that kind of public shaming, but now that we know it’s high time to put a stop to that abusive practice.
eBay stopped allowing sellers to leave NFB for buyers and it’s high time to stop allowing buyers to leave NFB for sellers, but the next step could be to stop allowing sellers to vet buyers according to FB left of others.

momcqueen · ‎05-16-2017

Feedback is supposed to serve a greater purpose than momentary satisfaction.

I'd be disappointed to see Feedback Left For Others vanish.

That being said, I'm done with this thread. You may carry on without me.

sylviebee · ‎05-16-2017

@mjwl2006 wrote:
Feedback is supposed to serve a greater purpose than momentary satisfaction.

I'd be disappointed to see Feedback Left For Others vanish.

That being said, I'm done with this thread. You may carry on without me.

Even though FB was initially designed to help buyers choose the best sellers, it hasn't served that purpose for a long long time.

eBay now has all the protections in place that buyer's need. FB adds nothing to the picture.

The vast majority of NFB is left out of anger and for a moment of satisfaction it gives the buyer. You just have to read it to see what was going on behind the scenes.

hlmacdon · ‎05-16-2017

@sylviebee wrote:

Many of the items I buy on eBay are extremely rare One of Kind items that every other knowledgeable collector will snap up the instant they set eyes on it. No questions asked. I'm Canadian so I often have to negotiate shipping and if other sellers do as you guys do then they'll be vetting my FB left for others. If I want to succeed in buying those items I have to have a squeaky clean history. I don't know why that's so hard to understand.

The negotiating shipping is probably has as much if not more to do with it. Selling internationally for many inexperienced sellers is already a pain, and many are unfamiliar with the various international shipping options (ie many US sellers are still unaware of changes to first class with e-delcon). Purses have a very high fraud rate so that factors in as well.

Like you I buy inventory in a highly collectible category and have never had an issue with a seller block. I leave feedback as appropriate. How often are you finding this is happening?

sylviebee · ‎05-16-2017

@hlmacdon wrote:

Like you I buy inventory in a highly collectible category ...............

Interesting. What type of collectible do you buy?

rose-dee · ‎05-17-2017

@sylviebee wrote:

If others couldn't view FB left for others there would be much more honestly left FB and it might actually serve a purpose.

I'm sorry, but this makes no logical sense. If no one could view FB left for others, what possible purpose would FB serve? An ego-boost for the seller if positive, and a carte blanche for the worst kind of verbal abuse by angry buyers, knowing their comments wouldn't be seen by anyone other than their seller?

Imagine what a truly enraged buyer might be capable of saying if he knew the only person who would see the comments would be his own seller? Yes, there would be radical honesty -- more freedom to bully, vent, and insult.

I'm afraid that would result in many angry people on both sides, and a lot more people being blocked by sellers. It's the openness that keeps people honest in leaving FB (and restrains the worst of them), knowing others will see their remarks.

Many of the items I buy on eBay are extremely rare One of Kind items that every other knowledgeable collector will snap up the instant they set eyes on it. No questions asked. I'm Canadian so I often have to negotiate shipping and if other sellers do as you guys do then they'll be vetting my FB left for others. If I want to succeed in buying those items I have to have a squeaky clean history. I don't know why that's so hard to understand.

However, if others couldn't view the FB I've left for others it would be very satisfying to leave NFB now and then. For now, not leaving NFB makes a whole lot more sense because if I lose just one of those items because of FB left for others, that would be a hefty price to pay for a fleeting moment of satisfaction.

Again, I don' know why that so hard to understand.

Unless you're dealing exclusively with Best Offer, I really don't see how FB history would enter into the picture at all. And with Best Offer, shipping is non-negotiable (must be stated by the seller and can't be part of the offer itself anyway). Actually, I'm having trouble understanding why you would "often" be obliged to negotiate shipping. Negotiating shipping these days is rare, as sellers must state shipping costs and terms in their listings.

In any event, once you've "snapped up" an item to get it before your competitive buyers do, you've committed to buy and the seller is committed to complete the transaction, so there is really no good way for a seller to back out of the deal at that point, FB issues or not.

What is hard to understand is why you believe that an occasional NFB in one's history -- if actually rational and calmly stated -- will have any effect on sellers allowing you to purchase from them.

The fact is that very few transactions give the seller any opportunity to "vet" a buyer anyway. The only realistic exception would be "Best Offer" (not usually auctions, for reasons I've mentioned). Even on a Best Offer, what seller is going to refuse to accept because a buyer has left a few reasonable NFB comments in a number of years? As a seller I certainly wouldn't. I think the offer itself is going to be far more important to a seller, given a more or less normal buyer history (assuming the seller actually looks at it).

As I and others have said, I am certain most sellers with any experience can spot a true FB trouble-maker, and can also recognize deserved NFB left in a reasonable manner. Inexperienced sellers are unlikely to know either way, in fact they're unlikely to even realize they can look through a buyer's history in transactions that don't conclude instantaneously.

You seem to have a pre-determined theory here in search of a basis that really doesn't exist. What your arguments suggest is that your fear of seller retribution arises from NFB being seen as somehow a black mark against you by sellers. I think the question is really: what kind of NFB would you be leaving?

If anything, your concern would be an argument in favour of always leaving honest, calm, factual NFB where appropriate, not masking all FB left for others. That kind of reasonable NFB will be recognized by others for what it is -- properly deserved by the seller -- and is the kind of NFB that is helpful and useful to the rest of the eBay community.

sylviebee · ‎05-17-2017

Rose-dee, We've about done this to death, but one thing I see from your post is that maybe I wasn't clear.

What I've been suggesting is that others can't view the FB a specific buyer left for transactions, and not that others can't view a seller's FB.

You're on Etsy. Do you have a problem with their FB system?

They've gone to a FB system which is exactly what I've been suggesting. Sellers don't leave FB for buyers and no one can see the specific FB any given buyer has left for others.

FB on that site is meaningful because buyers can be honest without fear that sellers will fault them for FB left in the past.

When I sell I leave flowery PFB because it makes buyers feel good.

When I buy I follow the same principle. I leave FB that makes sellers feel good because I know other sellers will be viewing FB I've left for others.

Same thing. You understand when it's done for buyers, so why the block when it comes to understanding why it's done for sellers?

It's not that complicated.

Most of the buyers I compete with are very sophisticated and experienced buyers. The average buyer spends much more money than I do and Is much more serious and competitive than I am. There's a reason they don't leave NFB with the system the way it is, and there's a reason I do as they do but explaining the same thing over and over is tiring.

rose-dee · ‎05-17-2017

@sylviebee wrote:

What I've been suggesting is that others can't view the FB a specific buyer left for transactions, and not that others can't view a seller's FB.

I don't think I misunderstood. You're talking about FB left for others. Many sellers are also buyers (who leave FB for others). I don't think I ever assumed you were arguing for seller's FB from their buyers to be hidden.

You're on Etsy. Do you have a problem with their FB system?
They've gone to a FB system which is exactly what I've been suggesting. Sellers don't leave FB for buyers and no one can see the specific FB any given buyer has left for others.
FB on that site is meaningful because buyers can be honest without fear that sellers will fault them for FB left in the past.

Not exactly. Etsy has always had a simple "reviews" system that was completely different in concept from eBay's from the start. They've never run auctions or Best Offer style listings, so there was not only no reason for sellers to "vet" buyers, but no opportunity either.

However, buyers are aware that their FB (reviews) left for others will be seen by many other buyers (and sellers too, if they're browsing) -- it isn't hidden.

The vast majority of sales on Etsy take place without prior seller notice or involvement, so there's little point in knowing a buyer's FB history anyway. Etsy has never used reviews to punish sellers directly, as eBay has done in the past with FB, so negative and neutral FB are moot. In other words, FB on Etsy is meaningless in terms of protecting sellers from truly nasty buyers. While it may help buyers choose a seller, sellers can leave fairly detailed responses to negative reviews (unlike eBay's 60 or so characters) to explain an otherwise poor review.

So, it has its downsides, but Etsy is quite a different selling platform. The only way to do what you're suggesting (on either site) would be to eliminate FB and reviews altogether.

All of this is incidental though. My main point really is that not all NFB on eBay is created equal, nor has the same impact.

As a seller looking at a buyer's FB, wouldn't you be able to distinguish between someone who had a couple of NFB comments such as: "Seller did not ship item", or "Item had very poor workmanship" from a buyer who blasts sellers with insults and exclamation marks? I think most of us would. As I said earlier, the frequency and tone make all the difference.

As a seller, I'm not going to refuse to sell to someone who has left a couple of reasonable negative FB comments in the last few months. In any case, how far does one have to go to find those instances of NFB? They aren't displayed in a counter, as sellers' FB is. So there is no way of knowing if there even are NFB comments beyond the past few months. This is particularly so for a busy, competitive buyer such as you say you are. One NFB comment would quickly get buried anyway.

Consider this: how much time would you be willing to spend as a seller to look through the FB history of someone like yourself who has hundreds of FB entries? Personally I don't think I'd bother to go past page 3 if I saw no egregious red flags (such as frequent or particularly nasty NFB comments).

Quite honestly, in the rare instances where I actually have a chance to "vet" a buyer in advance (i.e. usually "Best Offer"), all it really takes for me to tell the difference between a truly problem buyer and one who has a legitimate complaint or two is one click to see the FB left by others on the seller's page for whom my buyer left NFB. That can be instantly illuminating and completely exonerate the buyer. So no, not all NFB is actually bad if calmly and factually stated.

So next time you have a legitimately bad buying experience from an eBay seller, think of all the other buyers who might benefit from knowing, factually and honestly, what the problem was. Forget the sellers, I doubt most will have the inclination or opportunity to even look.

It's been interesting debating this topic, but I've got to disappear now and get some actual work done. Cheers.

sylviebee · ‎05-17-2017

Rosedee, I can't possibly read and respond to all that.

I understand that you like to view FB left for others. It also doesn't matter to me one bit if you do, so I have absolutely no reason to debate your views.

I'm not sure why you keep trying to poke holes in my observations and debate my opinion.