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05-06-2017 01:50 PM
Femme, I know I’m not going to change your mind about FB and trust me, I have no intention of trying to do that, but since you asked I’ll explain the way I see this and other FB issues.
Experienced and serious buyers have learned never to leave NFB because it only comes back to bite them.
Smart buyers don’t leave NFB, and crooks who are good at what they do don’t either.
Buyers who leave NFB were usually in some kind of shouting match with the seller and use NFB to land a final blow and what we see most of the time with NFB is an act of vengeance and the culmination of an exchange of nasty messages between buyer and seller.
If eBay stopped allowing members to view FB left for others we’d
1). See a lot more NFB with honest assessments of the service.
2.) Sales for good sellers would increase for two reasons. First they'd stop banning buyers who leave NFB. It gives some sellers the allusion on control but it's not real. Second, honest FB would steer buyers towards better sellers (like you) because buyers would have the opportunity to see what’s really gong on behind the scenes.
In general, the practice of leaving FB is barbaric. eBay was the first to ritualize Public Shaming with the FB process. I don’t think anyone was prepared for the power of that kind of public shaming, but now that we know it’s high time to put a stop to that abusive practice.
eBay stopped allowing sellers to leave NFB for buyers and it’s high time to stop allowing buyers to leave NFB for sellers, but the next step could be to stop allowing sellers to vet buyers according to FB left of others.
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05-14-2017 07:44 PM
@sylviebee wrote:
A lot of the most experienced buyers on eBay do exactly as I do and there are good reasons for that. Sure leaving NFB would provide a fleeting moment of satisfaction, but that's not worth a hoot when it comes back to bite you from behind. It never goes away.
My belief is that not all negative FB is created equal, and not all of it is a matter of satisfaction. If properly stated (honestly and calmly), it can not only be of significant use to other buyers, but to sellers as well, and not just in terms of vetting prospective buyers. Some sellers may even learn a thing or two about selling from such FB.
I don't mind the idea of the occasional frank, factual and realistic negative comment staying on my history if it helps others. But then I don't "shout" or issue invective either.
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05-15-2017 07:27 AM - edited 05-15-2017 07:29 AM
rose-dee, I couldn't possibly read and respond to all of that.
Instead, I'll give you another reason some of us never leave NFB.
During the very recent past I received:
1) a purse with a broken clasp which couldn't be opened unless you jammed something into the opening but described in excellent condition.
2) a figural purse with one side upside down but the photos were taken to show that side right side up.
3) a sterling silver purse which had a split in the frame which was about to snap in two but described as excellent.
4) A seller from Canada was charging the incorrect amount of tax and when I suggested that she correct it she cancelled the order.
I could go on.
On the one hand you (and others) describe how you monitor FB left for others, but on the other hand you advise leaving honest FB. That's a contradiction.
If I left honest FB I'd be toast as a buyer.
In addition, the one time I did leave NFB for an id where I occasionally sell a few things, that seller bought my least expensive item and left NFB. It was clearly retaliatory but eBay would not budge when I asked them to remove it.
I'm competing with buyers who don't leave NFB. Clearly, since leaving honest FB would make buying very difficult I simply decided never to do so.
I'm already at a disadvantage because I'm competing with American buyers who don't have to negotiate shipping details for many of their purchases.
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05-15-2017 11:25 AM - edited 05-15-2017 11:28 AM
Okay, this is all making sense to me now from your point of view. I still don't agree but I *get* it now.
You've said elsewhere on a few different occasions that you buy for resale.
I'm guessing you are bidding on sweet, sweet deals from inexperienced sellers or sellers who set their prices to be low simply because they either don't know any better or they don't give a hoot. I suspect that would be the only way you'd be able to find something selling for low enough on ebay to be able to resell it for a profit.
Let me tell you that I tried this too when I first began to amass my collection.
Here's what happened:
One of every ten sweet deals from new or inexperienced sellers turned out to be a lovely surprise. Five of every ten were an utter disaster with undisclosed damaged and the worst packaging possible. I received one item that had been completely waterlogged like it had been left in a ditch; another contained half-hatched bugs in the box; another was folded in half to make it fit, one had been packed with a king's ransom of void fill and then squashed to fit on to it.... the list goes on. I was charged triple for postage, cursed at if I dared to complain etc. Four of every ten were a mediocre experience, neither remarkable for being good nor bad.
Eventually, I decided my sanity was worth more than a sweet deal. I quit buying from those low count sellers no matter how tempting the deal appeared to be and went with those who were experienced and had good feedback and charged a little (or a lot) more but could guarantee not to waste my time. (And sanity.)
And I always left honest feedback, good or bad.
I understand that you feel leaving any kind of negative feedback will put you at a disadvantage.
I would encourage you to rethink this for your own good and the good of others who come after you.
If every buyer having a bad experience with Items Not as Described were honest about it, you'd know better than to waste your time and money with that seller. The seller mistakes you describe sound less to me like errors of deliberate intent and more like mistakes made my people who either don't know better or who don't fully appreciate the consequences of their actions.
Or maybe use multiple selling IDs and scatter your high-risk purchases so that you don't leave 12 Negatives in a row. I always made certain I left feedback for every purchase and I left a Positive in places where a Neutral might have done better. As in, I was careful only to leave Negative Feedback only for the sellers who really really deserved it. Any 'normal' ebay user can look at Feedback Left For Others and ascertain what is fair comment and what is not. I count on that. I was not one blocked from purchasing for any of my FLFO.
And if I had been, I doubt I would have cared.
As any seller on ebay knows, there are more sellers selling stuff than there are buyers buying it.
The buyer is King. We are the lowly seller serfs and hope not to arouse his anger.
That being said, I know you are an intelligent woman. I don't expect I will change your mind, I'm simply sharing my own perspective as I did walk in your shoes for awhile. I changed shoes. They were not comfortable for me.
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05-15-2017 12:23 PM - edited 05-15-2017 12:28 PM
mj, what you posted regarding my purchases is not 100% wrong, but close. I also have a very different opinion regarding the function of FB than you do.
IMO FB is irrelevant so why would I leave NFB? It can't help me and it certainly can hurt me.
Although some of my purchases aren't expensive and some of the sellers I buy from are inexperienced, I'm not choosing items based on those factors.
The sellers I buy from are all over the board and there's is no pattern to it. Also, I'm competing with the top collectors in the world, so the items I'm talking about tend to be top notch and very much in demand.
I could write a book about my purchases.
I've been doing things this way for so long that it didn't occur to me that others aren't doing exactly as I do until you pointed that out to me. My peers certainly are, but a few do hide their FB (for good reasons).
I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about FB. Sometimes these discussions evolve into something that hardly resembles the original concept any longer. It was never my intent to write about my personal experiences.
This started because I posted that IMO it would be to everyone's benefit if others couldn't view FB left for others. I feel very strongly that this is true. There is nothing to be gained by vetting FB left for others and if that information were not available it would benefit everyone.
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05-15-2017 12:32 PM
@sylviebee wrote:There is nothing to be gained by vetting FB left for others and if that information were not available it would benefit everyone.
I'm afraid I strongly disagree with this, despite the reality that fewer people leave FB. In fact, I'd say that with fewer users leaving FB, those comments become even more important and enlightening, since anyone who leaves FB these days has a good reason to do so and is likely very motivated (for better or worse).
Please take the time to read my posts and you may see why there is another side to this issue. You did open the discussion, and you're going to get other points of view. As the original poster I think it's only fair to read through others' comments.
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05-15-2017 12:33 PM
Sorry I disagree.
Positive feedback means nothing as far as buyer go, but leaving a neg for a rotten seller certainly does. It tells other buyers that the seller has issues with the product, shipping, or whatever.
If you choose to hide that, that is of course your choice but you are hurting all other buyers on Ebay.
I have been blocked by sellers for leaving negs, so what. When I receive stuff with insect nests in it, smells of mold and mildew, totally misdescribed, etc, I could care less if I can't buy from them again.
If it keeps being shoveled under the rug, that seller will never learn or change their ways and many innocent buyers will get burnt.
If you sell garbage, sellers should have to suffer the consequences.
If you are scared you may not be able to buy something in the future, maybe Ebay is not the right place for you.
As I said, it is totally your choice and I am only giving my opinion.
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05-15-2017 12:39 PM
@rose-dee wrote:Please take the time to read my posts and you may see why there is another side to this issue. You did open the discussion, and you're going to get other points of view. As the original poster I think it's only fair to read through others' comments.
Rose, there is simply no way you and I are going to agree and I'm not into endless debate on issues that are opinion.
I won't change your mind and you won't change mine, and when I do read your posts it only makes me more confident that I've got it right.
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05-15-2017 12:42 PM
@dutchman48 wrote:
If you are scared you may not be able to buy something in the future, maybe Ebay is not the right place for you.
I don't know why anyone would post something like that. I posted in detail above why eBay is exactly the right place for me.
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05-15-2017 02:43 PM
Please read my last line:
As I said, it is totally your choice and I am only giving my opinion.
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05-16-2017 11:43 AM
@sylviebee wrote:Rose, there is simply no way you and I are going to agree and I'm not into endless debate on issues that are opinion.
Well, it seems silly to start a discussion thread and then refuse to discuss or debate. Debate is what makes these subjects interesting for others to follow. There may be some people who will in fact see the other side of the coin.
As 'dutchman' said, we're all giving our opinions -- on a subject you raised.
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05-16-2017 11:46 AM
http://pages.ebay.ca/help/feedback/profile-public-private.html
I imagine the function is offered for circumstances such as this
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05-16-2017 12:21 PM - edited 05-16-2017 12:22 PM
@rose-dee wrote:
@sylviebee wrote:Rose, there is simply no way you and I are going to agree and I'm not into endless debate on issues that are opinion.
As 'dutchman' said, we're all giving our opinions -- on a subject you raised.
Rose-dee, I have no problem if you post your opinion, but you're taking my posts and picking them apart sentence by sentence. You're not posting an opinion. You're trying to invalidate mine.
The only way I can respond to that is by going through posts and picking your ideas apart point by point. That kind of thing goes on endlessly. I find those threads stressful, pointless, and a waste of my time.
No one ever changes their ideas, and things only end when everyone is throughly p---------ed off.
My position is very simple and I've stated it a number of times.
(mj, hiding FB doesn't do a thing for me.)
In relation to dutchman's message to me: """ If you are scared you may not be able to buy something in the future, maybe Ebay is not the right place for you."""" That's not just offering an opinion. It's meant to be condescending. Then shouting at me when I respond to it isn't really the way to go either.
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05-16-2017 12:49 PM
Sorry, you bolded and underlined, I just bolded which is not shouting. Capitalization is!
Personally, and my opinion only, I think you are too sensitive to what others say and take much of it the wrong way.
Any discussions you are involved with, I will not be.
I would also appreciate you not getting involved with any discussions I start so I do not offend you.
Thank you
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05-16-2017 12:57 PM
Dutchman, when you use large font the way you did it's viewed by others as shouting.
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05-16-2017 01:16 PM
again, your opinion. possibly do some reading about what is shouting on line and what is not.
I will not reply to this post any more as it seems like you are looking for more issues to argue about and I refuse to partake.
Bye.
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05-16-2017 01:33 PM
@mjwl2006 wrote:
There's always the Private Feedback option for Users.
http://pages.ebay.ca/help/feedback/profile-public-private.html
I imagine the function is offered for circumstances such as this
Yes, I was actually going to suggest that earlier. The downside to private feedback (at least in my view) is twofold. First, I always wonder what it is that the user is hiding or what they are afraid of, like those who use a stealth ID to post. It could be nothing, but it does raise questions that might reflect poorly on the person choosing private FB.
As a seller, I think I'd rather transact with a potential buyer who has left the occasional honest, clearly deserved negative or neutral comment for others than a buyer with a history of private FB. Other sellers may not care.
Secondly, private FB does nothing to help the eBay community at large. The whole point of (honestly given) FB was originally to provide some guidance for others to find good sellers and buyers. I think you and I have both expressed this thought earlier, i.e. that despite the reduction in FB overall, what is there still does serve a purpose.
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05-16-2017 01:44 PM
About FB, Continued from Previous Thread
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05-16-2017 01:54 PM
@mjwl2006 wrote:
I'm not worried about buyers who leave logical Negatives either. The ones I've blocked due to FLFO have not been rational by any stretch of the imagination.
Yes, and I do think it's fairly easy for an experienced eBay seller (or buyer) to tell the difference between the justified and the outrageous where FB is concerned.
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05-16-2017 05:24 PM
@sylviebee wrote:
On the one hand you (and others) describe how you monitor FB left for others, but on the other hand you advise leaving honest FB. That's a contradiction.
If I left honest FB I'd be toast as a buyer.
In addition, the one time I did leave NFB for an id where I occasionally sell a few things, that seller bought my least expensive item and left NFB. It was clearly retaliatory but eBay would not budge when I asked them to remove it.
I'm competing with buyers who don't leave NFB. Clearly, since leaving honest FB would make buying very difficult I simply decided never to do so.
I'm already at a disadvantage because I'm competing with American buyers who don't have to negotiate shipping details for many of their purchases.
You are assuming that sellers will block you if you left reasonable negative feedback for another seller. That presumes every seller has the time to go through every buyer's feedback and react in paranoia. That is a stretch, and if a seller did block you for leaving reasonable negative feedback, would you really worry about losing the ability to do business with such a seller? It sounds like you are worred about auction bids being cancelled, and if you are experiencing that on a regular basis I would delve into that further (don't buy under the same ID you are flipping your purchases for example). If you are constantly negotiating shipping deals that might be more likely to get you blocked.
By not leaving honest feedback you are allowing sellers to get away with the very things you just complained about for those recent purchases.
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05-16-2017 06:15 PM - edited 05-16-2017 06:18 PM
Sellers posting here tend to be the best of the best. Using the way you do things as examples of how things are done isn't realistic. I've had sellers tell me I'm an "undesirable" buyer because I've left a NFB now and then back when I did that sort of thing.
Also, as I've already mentioned, sellers here constantly mention how they vet a buyer's FB left for others so why the surprise that some buyers shy away from leaving NFB.
(You've also mentioned that you're suspicious of buyers who hide FB left for others, but now you've suggested that as an alternative so that's a contradiction as well.)
My initial comment about this topic was in relation to getting issues of INAD under control.
I pointed out that one thing that eBay has done is to require that sellers pay return shipping, but another thing that would help the situation would be to make FB left for others unavailable for viewing.
I totally stand by that. If others couldn't view FB left for others there would be much more honestly left FB and it might actually serve a purpose.
The rest of the discussion just evolved from that initial point into why buyers don't leave honest FB.
Many of the items I buy on eBay are extremely rare One of Kind items that every other knowledgeable collector will snap up the instant they set eyes on it. No questions asked. I'm Canadian so I often have to negotiate shipping and if other sellers do as you guys do then they'll be vetting my FB left for others. If I want to succeed in buying those items I have to have a squeaky clean history. I don't know why that's so hard to understand.
However, if others couldn't view the FB I've left for others it would be very satisfying to leave NFB now and then. For now, not leaving NFB makes a whole lot more sense because if I lose just one of those items because of FB left for others, that would be a hefty price to pay for a fleeting moment of satisfaction.
Again, I don' know why that so hard to understand.

