eBay

momcqueen · ‎01-07-2017

Heads up that I had an odd situation arise form a Best Offer transaction.

Item 331672966334 with Best Offer enabled. User with a USA shipping address made an offer that was acceptable to me since the listing specifies free domestic postage but international postage is not included in the asking/selling item price.

Offer accepted and invoice with postage the USA specified sent. Buyer then somehow switched to their alternate Canadian address and paid via paypal for Local Pickup (which on this listing is enabled as a Payment but not Shipping option, they are separate features) and expected their Best Offer price to then include free postage to their previously-undisclosed Canadian address.

While I am not exactly certain how this was actually able to happen, whether by design, glitch or some rip in the space-time continuum, the buyer clearly expected free shipping despite having bought it as an American user and paying for Local Pickup.

I was not able to meet this expectation because the cost of postage to their Canadian address if included in the selling price would have meant I was paying them to take it from me. Also, they had specified Local Pickup on payment so I was fairly confident I would be allowed by ebay to Cancel the transaction citing 'problem with the buyer address' (regarding the Usa to Canada swirtcheroo) without being hit with a defect or justifiable Negative feedback.

Also, the buyer was not new to ebay and had a high feedback count so I could not shake the suspicion this wasn't a complete accident on their part. It was a low Best Offer, half of the listed price on sale, but I could justify accepting it because postage to their address was paid by them and not me.

After triple-checking what I was seeing, I contacted the buyer and suggested we clarify they when they wanted to pickup their order. They replied that they expected it to ship for free at which point I sent them a screenshot confirming they had in fact paid for Local Pickup. (For the record, my listings specify Cash on Pickup, and that we don't encourage payment by paypal for that.) The buyer seemed irritated it wouldn't be shipped for free and I explained they had purchased it with their USA-based address shown in the offer so the free postage for Canadian addresses could not be applied, hence their invoice with intentional international postage.

The buyer then agreed to cancel and because this had all taken place within the hour, the refund was automatic.

Fellow sellers, be aware of this potential problem area. I don't know if it was the Best Offer, or the Local Pickup as a payment option that made this possible for the buyer to arrange. I know that when I have bought things with my Canadian address and then want it shipped to my USA address, I have to make the change in my account before I can request the proper postage amount from the seller, it doesn't just let me help myself so I'm not sure how this worked when it happened to me as a seller.

But I think we can all agree it leads to a messy situation when trying to deal with he buyer and their expectations, reasonable or not, for free postage where no free postage exists. In this case, the buyer ended their communication with telling me to 'fix my listing' to which I replied that if there was a mistake it was with ebay checkout and not the listing itself.

momcqueen · ‎01-07-2017

Exhibit A. Offer Made by and Sold to:

Exhibit B: Paid for purchase with new address in another country

Exhibit C: Confirmed by message the buyer expected free postage when they paid for Local Pickup

momcqueen · ‎01-07-2017

Also, I cannot replicate it. When I Add to Cart the relisted item (nothing changed) to my ebay.com cart with my buying ID enabled and USA address selected, I see no option for Local Pickup. Something happened between purchase and payment. The address switch took place at that time which is the reason I cannot replicate it, I'm not going to violate policies and buy my own item just to see where things went wrong. Regardless, I don't believe checkout should have allowed the buyer to checkout with a mid-transaction address switch if an invoice for the proper postage had already been sent.

If the offer hadn't been on the extreme low end of barely acceptable only if buyer-paid postage was applied, and it sold to an ebayer who was new to buying here, I might have handled things differently. But I couldn't honour it as it went through. This would have been a complete loss for me.

dutchman48 · ‎01-07-2017

The whole system is a mess.

Before Xmas I had someone buy 8 items and I sent an invoice with combined shipping. He paid for all 8 separate and said it was a phone issue with combining. I had to do 7 refunds as well.

vintagenorth · ‎01-07-2017

@dutchman48 wrote:
The whole system is a mess.

Before Xmas I had someone buy 8 items and I sent an invoice with combined shipping. He paid for all 8 separate and said it was a phone issue with combining. I had to do 7 refunds as well.

I had a buyer recently who purchased two items from me and I combined and then refunded shipping for one item. This resulted in ebay showing the item as unpaid. In PayPal the transaction showed as paid. Yes, new problems occurring all the time.

i.am.vivian · ‎01-07-2017

@mjwl2006 wrote:
User with a USA shipping address made an offer that was acceptable to me since the listing specifies free domestic postage but international postage is not included in the asking/selling item price.

expected their Best Offer price to then include free postage to their previously-undisclosed Canadian address.

My honest opinion? I don't believe the buyer was trying to put one over on you, just get the item they wanted at a really low price. It's manipulative, but not sinister. The listing does show Free Shipping in Canada.

Shipping is complicated and few buyers ever completely 'get' it. Not until they try selling a bit themselves. From the buyer's perspective you (1) accepted their offer, and (2) will ship free in Canada.

That's how a buyer understands it. 1 + 2.

If it were me I would be just as cheesed off as you but would have tried to show them the math and see if they still wanted it. I would tell the buyer the dimensions, show the links to the postal rates, explain that I would never have accepted such a low offer from a Canadian address because any offer needs to cover the item price + shipping fee, whereas an international order has shipping added so I can go lower on a US offer.

I would then have told the buyer the shipping cost to the Canadian address "proving" it with the CP link and keeping it as low as possible, explain that it comes to $X per item and delivered to their door that is a really good price, then ask if they still want it.

The answer would probably be "no" but they can then try to find a better deal elsewhere.

I don't think it is a "glitch" with the system, rather that listings where pick-up is an option a buyer from anywhere can select that, like they may be just visiting and want to buy this & that as a souvenir. Think of sellers of auto parts where the buyer is visiting from the US and suddenly needs a replacement door handle. Their "real" address is the States but they choose pick-up so they can fix the car on the spot.

momcqueen · ‎01-07-2017

The buyer did not accidentally not pay for postage. They exploited checkout to select and pay for Local Pickup and were annoyed with me that it didn't mean free postage. Fortunately, I didn't need to cajole them into accepting that fact because the Order Details confirmed it.

I'm not saying this was deliberate fraud but this member isn't new to eBay. A timid seller may be intimidated into taking a loss on an order placed this way but I could see what had transpired. I wasn't in a position to take a loss on the order.

Put another way, if I go shopping on a competitor website and fill my basket with goodies valued to meet the free domestic shipping threshold, I can't swap addresses to an American one once I meet that threshold at checkout and expect the retailer to still honor that promise of free postage. It's a ridiculous notion.

Even if in my case it happened by accident that the buyer switched addresses after purchase, nothing erases that they expected free shipping after paying for fulfillment by Local Pickup.

momcqueen · ‎01-07-2017

I will often toggle between free 'domestic' postage on an American website to my American address versus paying international postage to Canada in order to determine my best course of action. No other checkout allows a buyer to pay for one service and expect something else entirely. I agree there are two parts to this problem I faced. One being best offer and the other Local Pickup but in the past when I spent hours applying various items to the shopping cart in order to confirm my calculated shipping rules behaved as expected, local pickup does not appear with an international address. Only domestic. eBay cannot limit it to regions, either. But no matter, Local Pickup is just that. It's not free shipping.

i.am.vivian · ‎01-07-2017

@mjwl2006 wrote:
Local Pickup is just that. It's not free shipping.

I agree completely and I am glad you did not subsidize the buyer's shipping. On a couple others that you did, there was at least a chance you would get reimbursed. And through hard work and persistence you got compensated. This would be a dead loss.

I was not arguing with you, I'm just saying I think I can see the buyer's logic even if it is a bit shifty. It is "exploiting" the system, agreed. But not fraud.

I don't know what the buyer would have seen using a Canadian address, if there was a choice after having "bought" or if the only way to pay through was with the pick-up option, like if they could not see a free shipping. You could always try it out, with you on one computer and your husband on the other. Have him log in using your US ID, and if it is possible to add a Canadian address to that, do so. See if he can replicate what the buyer did, with you on your end as the seller. You'll lose the 30 cent listing fee when you cancel, but at least you'll be able to see the process first-hand.

From a Canadian address the buyer does not need to choose pick-up only. From where I am 2 provinces over, I see free shipping offered in the listing. Cash on pick-up, but shipping is free,

and again in the Shipping section tab,

momcqueen · ‎01-07-2017

Yes, if purchased from and to Canadian address, shipping is free.

But the buyer switched addresses between purchase and payment, even after being invoiced. I don't know where Local Pickup was offered as part of the checkout flow for an international buyer. It's not supposed to exist when a buyer is international. It must have defaulted when the buyer switched addresses and then must have began to get error messages for trying to checkout in a way where 'shipping not specified' in red text shows up.

Even if I found a great big bug in the checkout system that allows people from Australia to pay for Local Pickup when shopping, I'd have no one to report it to for fixing. Raphael is gone. Calling ebay Customer Service about it would be futile. It would take me 100 years to explain it to them for a Technical Error Report filed straight to G.

i.am.vivian · ‎01-07-2017

@mjwl2006 wrote:
I don't know where Local Pickup was offered as part of the checkout flow for an international buyer. It's not supposed to exist when a buyer is international.

I'm wondering if adding a Canadian address (Surrey, for example) to a US eBay account would make LP possible. Does switching to the Surrey address, in spite of being registered as a US account, make the difference? I am thinking it does, just as using a Canadian address would affect the shipping fees.

momcqueen · ‎01-07-2017

Oh yes. The Local Pickup is associated with the shipping address, regardless of where a buyer is initially registered.

What remains a mystery is how the buyer was able to pay at all after switching addresses. They had already been invoiced.

The address switch would have been inconsequential if Best Offer had not been enabled and accepted. And irrelevant if one address hand't been allowed free shipping while they other had not. But as sellers we know there's no such thing as 'free' shipping it means 'postal included' and as such the Best Offer price acceptable when a buyer foots the bill for postage will naturally be different than when the seller does.

Still, at the end of the day, the buyer paid for Local Pickup and expected free shipping. It just doesn't work that way.

i.am.vivian · ‎01-07-2017

@mjwl2006 wrote:

What remains a mystery is how the buyer was able to pay at all after switching addresses. They had already been invoiced.

Oh, OK. My guess would be that because the buyer was invoiced, maybe by choosing Local Pickup was the only way to pay through. To the buyer's mind, free is free, so whether it is free shipping or free pick-up, they're the same. Going to the checkout with a Canadian address would bring up the LP option. There is no way to block PayPal payments, and sometimes people to want to pay with PP on a pick-up order.

I am not, absolutely not, saying the buyer is right and justified. Don't read that into it. You just summed up how shipping works, and as you say, " the buyer paid for Local Pickup and expected free shipping. It just doesn't work that way". You know it, I know it, and everyone reading this knows it. And I believe the buyer might know it too and just thought to try their luck.

You accepted the buyer's offer of $45. That is an outside order where shipping will be added extra. The buyer sees you accepted $45 and doesn't know that on a Canadian order the lowest you would accept is $65 (or whatever) on a $98 item, not unless you tell them.

I'm not sure if I'm making sense. I am definitely not saying you should have done anything different. Someone wants it delivered for less than half price? Get real.

I'm just saying I can see the buyer's point of view, even if I, too, could not accept it. For the buyer,

Seller accepts an offer of $45, but shipping to the US costs $XX.

Shipping within Canada is free, so it says.

OK, here's a Canadian address.

Darn, I can't pay because I keep getting the US invoice.

Well here, I'll click "pick up" and get my free shipping that way. Free is free.

We all know it doesn't work that way for offers & shipping internationally. That's why I'd explain the math, and see if they still wanted it. Not likely but fine, they can go buy some cheap junk from China that takes 3 months to arrive broken.

Well now, I smell dinner starting and I promised to make apple crisp so I better go & do it.

momcqueen · ‎01-07-2017

I totally agree with you. That's probably exactly how it happened. And maybe it's happened that way before too for other orders and sellers. If I was new to selling and feeling unsure of myself, I may have considered taking the loss. But this time it just seemed a bit too sneaky to me. And if they had, of course, messaged me to say, "Yes, of course I'll pick it up tomorrow, I'm in Winnipeg visiting my granddaughters!" there would be no thread today. I've had visitors from out-of-town opt for a Local Pickup on their Shopping Day.

pjcdn2005 · ‎01-08-2017

@mjwl2006 wrote:
Oh yes. The Local Pickup is associated with the shipping address, regardless of where a buyer is initially registered.

What remains a mystery is how the buyer was able to pay at all after switching addresses. They had already been invoiced.

The address switch would have been inconsequential if Best Offer had not been enabled and accepted. And irrelevant if one address hand't been allowed free shipping while they other had not. But as sellers we know there's no such thing as 'free' shipping it means 'postal included' and as such the Best Offer price acceptable when a buyer foots the bill for postage will naturally be different than when the seller does.

Still, at the end of the day, the buyer paid for Local Pickup and expected free shipping. It just doesn't work that way.

I don't understand why the buyer did choose local pickup as it should have been possible for them to pay using their ship to Canadian address with the advertised free shipping. You can buy with one address and change it when you pay so it isn't uncommon. I have heard sellers in the US run into a similar situation as they would acept an offer for a price with free shipping assuming that the buyer was one state over and then find out that the buyer was on the other side of the country. They still had to honour the agreed upon price because the listing did state free shipping and shipping was not a part of the offer negotiation.

I think that the only way to get away from this happening again is that when you accept an offer it would probably be best to add a note to the offer such as 'offer amount' plus shipping to the US, the system is set up to allow the buyer to change their address before payment with any transaction. Perhaps it isn't possible for eBay to disallow it for offers so a workaround nay be the only option.

Question -- Do you always send an invoice in a situation like this? I have read (but not confirmed) that it is best not to send an invoice especially if you are using calculated shipping. The explanation is that when a buyer pays through the eBay pay now feature it supports calculated shipping so if they commit to buy with one address then pay with another, the shipping will change. If you send an invoice, that invoice is static so although the buyer is still allowed to change their address to another one when the pay, the shipping amount stays the same. i don't remember hearing about an international buyer changing the address and having the price stay the same so I think that changing the country would be handled differently. Again, I can't confirm any of this.

momcqueen · ‎01-08-2017

The Offer process shows the seller the address of the buyer so, in theory, there should never be a surprise address. When I'm buying stuff with my buyer ID, I have to Request Total from seller if I change addresses between purchase and payment or I get the Shipping Not Specified error UNLESS the item is Immediate Payment Required.

I haven't bothered adding the existing buyer address to terms on acceptance of an offer but if this happens again, I will consider it. Not every Best Offer listing has a free domestic postage issue. I do always invoice a buyer immediately after accepting their offer to trigger, I hope, quick payment. Sometimes it works and I do get payment immediately afterwards.

I don't know how checkout handled this for the buyer since I was not able to replicate it in the steps that ended before actually purchasing it. Local Pickup with PayPal payment is not something I actively encourage. I prefer cash for that.