Lost item in mail finally turned up

[steveyboy1969]

Hello,

I sent out two packages to two different customers back in early December that really didn't look like they would ever turn up. Just shipped from Montreal to the US, no huge travel time and under expedited shipping as well. Almost 2 months later, and after I refunded the buyers, they are now back on the tracking radar as in travel, and one customer actually has it in hand.

Question, how do I get the refund back? Worst case scenario, the buyer doesn't want to refund,, do I have any recourse?

[ricarmic]

As far as I know you are up to trusting their honesty to let you know so you can re-invoice them.......you can't force them to do anything....

As a note, any time I refund, case or otherwise, I include text something like this: "I am refunding your money out of my own funds now. If the stamps do eventually arrive, just let me know so I can send another invoice so you can pay for them again (small lots like this are self insured so I am out 100% if they do not show up). It is very rare for packages to never arrive, over 99% of the time they just take longer than one would expect to get there."

That looks after the situation you have, a surprising number of times I have had customers contact me to pay again.

You could maybe try sending a note saying you noticed or were advised the packages have arrived and ask them if they'd let you send an invoice so they can pay again....

[pierrelebel]

"and ask them if they'd let you send an invoice so they can pay again...."

Ditto except I would say:  "A PayPal invoice will be sent in a few minutes.  Your prompt payment will be appreciated.  Thank you once again for your patronage.".

[i*m-still-here]

I wonder if you can file a claim with the CPO?

[pierrelebel]

"a claim with the CPO?"

???

A claim for what?

Since the parcel has been found/delivered, that would be fraudulent, would it not?

[i*m-still-here]

Fraudulent??

A very strong word for this situation.

First.  The CPO should certainly refund the shipping cost. (Perhaps they already have?)

Second:  Perhaps the seller has already filed a claim with the CPO?   The packages have been lost for 2 months.

Third: It's a very unusual situation and quite possible that the PO would make things right.  The buyers might pay again and they might not.

You never know how much responsibility the PO will take and they are in fact responsible for the mess from the sounds of it.

But, Pierre.............. Oh My Goodness............. from that to fraudulent???? ............. Now that's one unusual and humongous leap.

[cumos55]

A discussion with Canada Post should occur....

If only to let them know what happened....  and what  the seller had to do....

and let them know the buyer has the purchase as well as the money paid for the purchased item.

It is fraud if you file a claim for an item that you know was delivered.... as per Small Packet with insurance but no tracking...many moons ago.

[cumos55]

Expedited Parcel within Canada... is ... "guaranteed" to be delivered within the time period indicated on the Canada Post's website.

but not to the US.....

[pierrelebel]

Section 380(1) of the Criminal Code of Canada provides the general definition for fraud in Canada:

380. (1) Every one who, by deceit, falsehood or other fraudulent means, whether or not it is a false pretence within the meaning of this Act, defrauds the public or any person, whether ascertained or not, of any property, money or valuable security or any service,

(a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to a term of imprisonment not exceeding fourteen years, where the subject-matter of the offence is a testamentary instrument or the value of the subject-matter of the offence exceeds five thousand dollars; or (b) is guilty (i) of an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years, or (ii) of an offence punishable on summary conviction,

where the value of the subject-matter of the offence does not exceed five thousand dollars.[7]

In addition to the penalties outlined above, the court can also issue a prohibition order under s. 380.2 (preventing a person from "seeking, obtaining or continuing any employment, or becoming or being a volunteer in any capacity, that involves having authority over the real property, money or valuable security of another person"). It can also make a restitution order under s. 380.3.[8]

The Canadian courts have held that the offence consists of two distinct elements:

• A prohibited act of deceit, falsehood or other fraudulent means. In the absence of deceit or falsehood, the courts will look objectively for a "dishonest act"; and
• The deprivation must be caused by the prohibited act, and deprivation must relate to property, money, valuable security, or any service.[9]

[i*m-still-here]

Pierre, I'm not sure why anyone would cut and past a definition of fraud to this thread.

It's not appropriate.

You can's sincerely believe that contacting the CPO and asking about this situation is in any way fraud.

Even if the seller were inclined to lie  (and there is ZERO indication of that), it wouldn't be possible.

Everything is documented.

[pierrelebel]

"You can's sincerely believe that contacting the CPO and asking about this situation is in any way fraud."

Of course not.

Your post did not mention "contacting Canada Post" but filing a claim with Canada Post.

As stated earlier filing a claim knowing the parcel is not lost nor damaged would be fraudulent.

[i*m-still-here]

Again,Pierre..............

Filing a claim with the CPO is in no way fraudulent.

As pointed out above, even if the seller were inclined to lie (and there is ZERO indication of that), it would be impossible to commit any kind of fraud in this situation as everything is documented.

Filing a claim does not equal fraud or misrepresenting the facts.

IMO the seller should contact the Post Office and file (a claim or whatever you want to call it) for shipping costs and take it from there.

For you to suggest that this is fraudulent makes no sense.

The Post Office may offer further compensation and they may not, but they should certainly be contacted.

You are free to disagree.

[pierrelebel]

Please, take a few minutes and talk to a lawyer.  There is no point for you to keep arguing the point here.

[i*m-still-here]

Pierre: I don't know of a lawyer who specializes in CPO issues such as this.  

An easier and less costly approach would be for you to call the CPO.  

They will help you with all the questions you are concerned about above.

I am pretty sure that they will tell I you that when an item is shipped via expedited mail that false claims of non-arrival are not possible, or at least in this case not an issue.

Everything is documented.

I believe that's what concerns you.

It will take some time but it will be time well spent and should get you some of the answers you're after.

[mr.elmwood]

A claim for what? Delivered?

CP does not consider a parcel "lost" until after 45 days. Perhaps 45 days has not elapsed and the parcel has been delivered by the USPS, who had it most of the time.

Yes, file a "claim" for a non-lost delivered parcel. You can take that to the bank like a post dated, third party, foreign currency, out of country cheque.

[i*m-still-here]

Filing a claim for an undelivered parcel is something that Pierre came up with all on his own and obviously it makes no sense.

Take it up with Pierre for Pete's sake.

Not me.

[mr.elmwood]

Post #3, your post, you brought it up. Pierre disputed your assessment.

[i*m-still-here]

I think not.

I posted and I quote: """"  I wonder if you can file a claim with the CPO?  """""

Pierre came up with the notion of filing a claim for non-delivery.

Even though I've pointed out many times that non-delivery is ridiculous for some reason Pierre and now you (ElmWood) like that idea.

If I were the seller, the first thing I would do is call the PO and ask if I could file a claim for recovering shipping fees and perhaps the PO would step up and extend that claim depending on the outcome for the seller.

I have no idea what the PO will do, but was my initial recommendation to star and I stand by that in spite of what you and Pierre have to add to it.

ElmWood: Please call the PO and they will clear these things up for you and Pierre.

I don't know the answers to all of your questions.

[mr.elmwood]

You broached the subject of filing a claim. That is what you wrote. That is what I read. That is what is on my screen. Perhaps you meant differently, but, you said what you said.

Pierre and I lined up with no chance of that ever happening with a delivered parcel.

You suggested filing a claim and we disagreed.

[i*m-still-here]

Just have to point out:  A seller posts a concern about a shipment and then it get hi-jacked into a discussion about whether it's possible to file a claim of non-receipt for Expedited parcels.

I understand that Pierre sells stamps and so he doesn't use Expedited shipping.

He may not be aware that claims for item not received are not possible with that type of shipping so obviously he couldn't follow my post.

However, you are certainly aware that Expedited shipping comes with delivery confirmation and filing a claim for non-receipt isn't an option.

I assumed that this was basic knowledge understood by all experienced sellers.

Please call the CPO.  I know you don't want to believe me but they will clear up all this confusion for you and Pierre as well and verify what I've already told you over and over.

I can't help you any further.