eBay

rmleider · ‎05-17-2013

I declined it and told them to send it back due to high brokerage fee, $40 on a $70 purchase. I just got a bill in the mail, they are trying to still charge me $40. Can they do that? What can I do?

i*m-still-here · ‎05-17-2013

What can you do?

I don't know, but that's a good question.

I don't think there is anything legally binding you to pay.

After all: You received nothing and so what is it that you'd be paying for?

A service to broker the item which you didn't want or order in the first place?

I've wondered what happens to items which are refused when buyers get dinged by couriers.

I know that if buyers file cases for item not received they will win a paypal case.

I always thought the items would be returned the shipper and the shipper would be required to pay brokerage fees and return shipping and if they refused the item would go on the auction block.

In other words:

I thought the courier would bill the shipper.

If the shipper doesn't pay then the item goes on auction and the courier collects that way.

Billing you seems like double dipping.

pierrelebel · ‎05-17-2013

It does not matter who is right or who is wrong. An unpaid bill may end up on your credit record.

The best thing to do is to pay the bill (taxes and fees) upon receipt of the package and make a claim with the seller for the unwarranted fees.

It is not worth risking a blemish on one's credit record for a few dollars, regardless of who is at fault.

lady.stark · ‎05-17-2013

It is not worth risking a blemish on one's credit record for a few dollars, regardless of who is at fault.

Under normal circumstances, I would totally agree. But in this situation, the buyer refused the package. So technically, he doesn't possess it and should not pay the fees. I would first call UPS to ask why I am being charged for an item I don't have and if there is still a possibility to deliver it to me.

If it doesn't work, I *think* you can still ask for a refund of those fees to the Canada Border Services Agency, because you "returned" the item. But I'm not sure.

pierrelebel · ‎05-17-2013

"the buyer refused the package."

That is correct. By agreeing to pay the bill, UPS will most likely re-deliver the parcel.

I am guessing this is the "dog treats" lot at US$ 39.99 (Cdn$41.00), The listing shows USPS. If the seller shipped through UPS, he made a mistake and should be held responsible for it.

Because $41 is just above the $40 thresshold for USPS brokerage fee, the basic fee jumps to $19.35 from $7.00. Then add the COD fee (if not paid in advance), disbursement fee and tax (GST/GST) and it adds ups to about $40.

http://www.ups.com/content/ca/en/shipping/cost/zones/customs_clearance.html

Communications with the seller may solve that problem.

i*m-still-here · ‎05-17-2013

The package probably left Canada a long time ago.

In any event....... rmleider is clearly not interested in having the parcel delivered and paying brokerage fees.

It was already declined and so why even go there?

The way it stands is that the item was declined and the buyer has received a bill for a service that was never requested.

The idea that someone should pay all bills because credit ratings would get dinged if you don't, and then go after the person who billed you for the money after the fact if the bill was unwarranted................

Seriously?

P********: That's what it sounded like you posted.............. or maybe I read your post incorrectly?

pierrelebel · ‎05-17-2013

"maybe I read your post incorrectly?"

Why should today be any different?

captivatemedia · ‎05-17-2013

I don't think UPS could/would ding your credit. They need some verified personal info to do anything on the credit bureau. I'm pretty sure "A person put your name and address on a box" is not considered verified personal info.

I think the whole UPS charging fees at the last minute thing is wrong and should be illegal. They should be forced to be up-front with these costs. Customs fees, yes, but "Brokerage Fees", especially in the amount that they want, No.

Anything above and beyond the usual customs fees should be included in the price the shipper pays at the beginning. Oh, but they wouldn't get any international business that way because their prices would be too high.

i*m-still-here · ‎05-17-2013

You posted that the rmleider should pay for a service that was not requested or expected.

You also stated that doing otherwise would put rmleider's credit rating in jeopardy........

You stated that refusing to pay bills for unrequested services (from a courier) for example puts one's credit rating at risk...........

Then you pointed out that rmleider should go after the seller for that money.

That is exactly what I said but I extrapolated to like situations.

""" The idea that someone should pay bills because credit ratings would get dinged if you don't, and then go after the person who billed you for the money after the fact if the bill was unwarranted................"""

Seriously?

stevephinn2012 · ‎05-17-2013

YOU ordered no service from UPS and therefore owe them NO money. Do not pay it. They can do nothing to your credit rating.

Think i am just going to send pierre a few bills through paypal as he would rather pay bills (whether warranted or not) and then deal with it later-LOL

The SELLER is the ONLY person that has contracted any sevice through UPS.

dipmicro · ‎05-17-2013

In my opinion, UPS and other couriers are operating on the edge of the rules. They need receiver Power of Attorney (POA). Because it's costly, they pre-clear shipments and by paying bill receiver accepts UPS service and gives them POA. 99.9% of people do, the 0.1% who refuse is calculated risk and lower cost than doing it properly. Overall, it's less costly for them to pre-clear, including occasional lawsuits and settlements.

There should be no credit record. UPS will blackmail the sender for some of the costs and most will give in to maintain good standing with UPS..

Ordering something online and then refusing to take delivery and forcing full refund creates a damage for someone, but it's more of ethical than legal issue, because police will not prosecute anything under $1000 unless is a traffic ticket and anything over $1000 they will try very hard to make you do your own civil lawsuit, they say it's lower standard of the proof than in criminal investigation and you have higher chance of getting something back. Which they are actually right. Basically, police is useless in small property crime.

dipmicro · ‎05-17-2013

This is not the legal advice because I am not a lawyer, but it's my belief, that receiver has only liability to the government, not the brokerage firm he did not hire. If I would like to tickle the system, I would pay the government portion of the bill (duties and taxes) and refuse to pay the brokerage portion. Expect to be blacklisted by this courier. I only did this once to TNT and I never used TNT since, so cannot comment if I am really blacklisted.

i*m-still-here · ‎05-17-2013

The problem with courier shipments for items over $20 (in the case of Canada) is the result of the fact that they do not inform shipper or receiver that the receiver will be asked to pay duty and taxes (100% of the time), but moreover hefty brokerage fees.

((At least the GSP is up front about costs.))

THAT is the issue.

IMO that's where they are operating on the edge of the rules.

There are laws which require that consumers be informed up front about costs and agree to those costs prior to the purchase.

Since these costs are way beyond what the PO charges this should be mandatory because it always comes as a surprise the first time............... and usually they do not have a second shot at us.

It would be a small thing for the couriers to do ............ easy for them.

If shipments get refused and returned and they have to eat the fees, then it's their own fault for not being up front about what awaits the receiver.

They keep that very well hidden from buyer and seller........... and I can think of only one reason for that neglect.

froogal_electronic_parts_and_overstock · ‎05-21-2013

It does not matter who is right or who is wrong. An unpaid bill may end up on your credit record.

The best thing to do is to pay the bill (taxes and fees) upon receipt of the package and make a claim with the seller for the unwarranted fees.

It is not worth risking a blemish on one's credit record for a few dollars, regardless of who is at fault.

normally a provider of good advice, this is the worst advice ever. JK, but it's not very good.

If you didn't receive a service, then don't pay for it. Period.

UPS and Fedex go through this all the time. It's a game they play. They know they get higher collections by billing afterward and less refusals. This makes them more money.

If it's not illegal, it's extremely shady business practice. Because of the extreme feelings this can cause (at least with me and others) both UPS and Fedex will often reduce or even eliminate these fees when you complain about the billing after the fact. That they do this, suggests to me that they are working in a grey area and will back down when confronted.

In this case, I would call them up and tell them to take a hike. There is no contract, no agreement, nothing that you said you would do this. A package showed up that had nothing to do with you. Even had the seller said UPS, there is no contractual agreement between you and UPS.....unless you accept the delivery at which time you sign the agreement/contract with them that makes you liable for the fees (if the seller indicated that on the waybill). Of course, if you did agree to shipping by UPS but did not know about the fees, you are still morally obligated to pay.

UPS likes to do other funny things. I once sent a package on a customers account, with their account number, and someone in their company nixed the waybill and told UPS to charge me. Which they did, and tried to collect. It took about 6 calls/emails with ZERO results, until I caught the rep in a lie and called them on it, then it got reversed. The lie was that they FORGED my signature on the waybill. I only noticed after I saw the proof of delivery.

You are not responsible for anything. If you want to take Pierre's advice, I will put your name down for may cable bill, and my cellphone bill too, and you would be best to pay for it, so you don't get a bad mark on your credit.

plus, if you take pierre's advice, I am pretty sure you will be out of luck on the extra fees paid. customs fees are always excluded and if you put in a claim that went to ebay, it's a relatively complicated claim that requires a rational judgement and then a dollar decision that I don't think really falls into ebay's normal protection system. I would bet that 'after careful consideration' that the claims 'specialist' will hit the F8 key - 'customs fees are not the sellers responsibility', regardless of the merits or details of the claim.

pierrelebel · ‎05-21-2013

" this is the worst advice ever"

We live in a free country and everyone is entiled to an opinion.

Many Canadians refuse to use UPS (and other courriers) when importing from the USA due to their brokerage and associated fees much higher than the post office for shipments valued at more than Cdn$ 40.00.

We all understand that.

In this specific instance, the blame is squarely on the seller who charged the buyer to use USPS as stated in the listing but decided instead of using UPS resulting in extra fees of about $20 (the difference in fees between UPS and Canada Post; taxes being the same).

So one has to make a choice between "being right" or solving the problem. Sometimes in life one needs to be pragmatic. This is always my favourite approach: solve the problem.

I stand by my original post.

tobyshitzu · ‎05-21-2013

Obviously they cant make the receiver pay nor report it to the credit bureau. If they could then I could arrange to send someone I didn't like a UPS parcel from the USA declared at a huge value. The receiver would be in the same position as the op, and would obviously reject the parcel. No one could seriously believe the recipient would have to pay if ups starts sending them bills