Is this poor seller ethics or am I crazy?

[xen999]

I'm currently having to deal with this difficult seller, and - having never used eBay for selling - maybe other ebayers can enlighten me one a few things, because right now I'm getting pretty miffed to say the least.

So the situation. This american seller had 4 items I was interested in, however, looking at the listings, it wasn't clear whether he shipped internationally or not. Shipping info stated "Ships to: United-States" followed by the generic ebay note saying " May not ship to Canada - Read item description or contact seller for shipping options". There wasn't any note against international shipping in the description either. From past experiences, many american sellers simply omit to include worldwide as a shipping option and will ship to Canada if you ask them. And this is exactly what I set out to do. I email the guy 2-3 days before the end of the auctions to inquiry about shipping, but time went by and I got no answer. A simple yes or no from the seller at this point would've prevented this whole mess, but it was apparently too much trouble.

Anyway, in the closing seconds of the auctions I decide to take a chance seeing as the seller has some pretty strong feedback - I figure I'd be dealing with a fairly reasonable seller and that, surely, we could work something out either way. I ended up winning all 4 auctions (though not one of them went for more than $4 so we're not dealing with a particular large sum here...) I requested an invoice and explained pretty much what I just said here: asked about shipping to Canada, got no answer, still bid but would understand perfectly if it couldn't be done. No invoice, no reply. Sent a new message restating the same deal. Still nothing. Wrote another message, but this time mentioned leaving negative feedback for lack of communication. Days after the end of the auctions, that FINALLY got him to react. He states that it was United-States only auctions and has the gall to tell me I should've tried to work with him beforehand...

At that point I thought that was the end of it, that the auctions would fade into obscurity or get cancelled; unfortunate but fair, as I said before. However, one or 2 days ago I get unpaid cases opened against me for these items. So now I'm completely baffled as to what I'm expected to do. I can't pay without a proper invoice, the seller won't send me one and he's perfectly aware of this so why the cases? I message him to understand what the hell is going on and his response is that the cases were open automatically and that he'll get his fees back this way. He also thinks I'm a magic wizard for having been able to bid on United-States only auctions... Not in these specifc words mind you, but that might as well just have been that. How else would you explain me bidding on 4 *distinct* auctions and somehow winning them all through some magic loophole... The seller messing up his listings has nothing to do with anything, clearly. But to get back to the unpaid cases, am I crazy to think it's completely unethical to expose a buyer to unpaid strikes when they can't do anything just to get your fees back? I'm not actually worried about getting strikes, I don't think eBay would be dumb enough to rule against me here, but this feels incredibly wrong. And while we're at it, why can I not appeal right away? I can't pay, why can't I notify eBay if this...

[brandeentertainment]

First off .. Contact ebay and see if they can just cancel the transaction and explain the situation ...

In my opinion here is what went wrong ..

Seller made mistake in listing ...

You bid without clear understanding of if they would ship or not... ( You were patient but then again if this guy is selling 200 items a day and getting 400 message a day 2--4 days would be reasonable response time if they are a one man band)

YOU MENTION NEGATIVE FEEDBACK .. That right there 100% killed any chance of the guy sending you a cancellation request ..

To cancel a seller sends cancellation but if buyer denies it then sellers eats the fees ...

By mentioning what you did probably screamed peed off customer which would make him say no way to canellation and chance eating fees so then the only sure thing to do is file unpaid case to receive fees...

My opinion NEVER bid unless it is 100% clear ...

Never Mention Neg feedback .. Leave it if you want but if you wrote me stating that I would block you from any future purchases for life.. Your opnion is your opinion and telling a seller that is pointless it will just irritate the seller Justified or not .. Leave the neg if you want just don't advertise to the seller ...

Conclusion your not in the wrong you both made honest mistake but I would say the NEG comment is what got you 0 Chance of getting a Cancellaton ..

As for the automatic Unpaid case that is how most of us do it .. My system will file unpaid case fter 8 days ...

I would contact ebay NOW before the unpaid strikes get on your account and see what you can do ...

[xen999]

Well ok, 2 things. What was I suppose to do when I was getting no answer from him? I was extremely polite and jovial in all my messages as I generally am and even when I mentioned negative feedback I was basically saying "it would suck to have to do this...". And had I not gotten any reply from him then, the unpaid item cases still would've popped and I would've been even more in the dark about the situation. I'm getting the impression this was his intent from the start.

Secondly, from what I read, it seems to be against the unpaid item case policies for a seller to refuse to complete a transaction (which is what's basically happening here) and then opening a case against the buyer. A seller cannot both refuse to honor a sale and expect a payment at the same time.

[femmefan1946]

What was I suppose to do when I was getting no answer from him?

Umm.... don't bid with someone who will not answer your questions?

I basically agree with you that the seller did not act appropriately but you know what eBay does agree is appropriate? If a bidder wins on a listing that has NO shipping indicated, the seller is allowed, with no arguement from eBay, to charge whatever she thinks is appropriate.

So if you purchased your items without any idea of what the seller needed for shipping, and she decided that the most secure service would be Priority Ultra Express at $100 a mile for the 500 miles between you and her, eBay would allow it. And you could either pay or ... here comes that Unpaid Item Strike.

[xen999]

"Umm.... don't bid with someone who will not answer your questions?"

Well sure, hindsight is always 20/20. And generelly speaking, that's exactly what I do. I gave the seller the benefice of the doubt with his initial unresponsiveness (anyone can get busy at times) and I assumed (incorrectly), based on his feedback, that he would be a reasonable individual, even more so for such low amounts.

[rose-dee]

It sounds a if there were mistakes made on both sides, but this seller doesn't merit any awards in my book for customer service.  I think that once he realized you were in Canada and that the automated Unpaid Item Disputes had been opened, he should have just sent you an invoice for the items plus (hopefully reasonable) shipping, along with an apology for the automated UIDs perhaps.  

Actually, unless his usual volume of emails is huge, he owed you a reply when you first contacted him.  Mind you, for $4 items he may not have thought it important enough.  And some US sellers just don't want to have to deal with anybody outside the US, period. 

Although you probably realize now that it wasn't wise to jump into a bid/purchase like this if you couldn't get the seller to confirm whether he'd ship to Canada, once it was a done deal and you'd won the auctions, I think the onus was on the seller to work something out with you.  Unfortunately, as 'brande'  said, mentioning negative feedback, even in a "nice" way, is unlikely to be seen by sellers as a helpful gesture on the part of a buyer, and that may have scared the seller off.  Otherwise, you may have been able to convince the seller to just cancel the whole thing and both of you could walk away completely unscathed. 

Since matters have reached an impasse now, and if you have the time, you might want to try phoning eBay (for what it's worth), to see if they can suggest a way out.  Otherwise, you may have to absorb some strikes for this learning experience, which is unfortunate. 

[imbuzzy]

I believe that ebay should have a mechanism involved that would make it impossible to bid or use the BIN feature on items where it is clearly stated that the item might not ship to Canada - until the seller has allowed the buyer to participate by putting him/her on an exemption list.

Allowing the buyer to go ahead and blindly participate in such transactions can lead to less than desirable results - as the OP has found out. 

I have just come across a seller who has acted in the same way - sells only to US customers and has ignored my request for shipment to Canada.  I refused to carry on with bidding for the item, and the auction ended without any bids. Seller can't be that satisfied, nor am I - but life goes on.  The item has been relisted the with the same terms - part of me wants to resend my request, but I won't bother since I now question the seller's skills.  I'll wait for another seller to come along - even if it takes years...

The cynical side of me thinks the reason ebay allows foreign buyers to bid/buy on domestic sales is because it makes ebay more money than having a fail-safe measure of forcing the seller to place the buyer onto an exemption list.  The more bidders on an item - the higher the FVF.  In other words, ebay sacrifices the zen of its members to better its own state of finances.

[i*m-stilll-here]

It is up to a seller to control listings. Not the buyer.

If a seller does not want to ship to certain areas, then the seller must block those countries.

If the item sells to a country that wasn't blocked (thus welcoming the buyer's bid), then the seller is at fault and should honour the transaction.

HOWEVER, you did not get a shipping cost prior to bidding.  That gives the seller carte blanche to plug anything in there and, trust me:  They will if they can.

You should not have mentioned NFB.  Now, if you do leave NFB and the seller can make a case that you used it as leverage (a threat?) to get the seller to honour the transaction that FB can be removed.

IMO you did nothing wrong.

The vast majority of sellers who don't block countries welcome bids from those countries and buyers can't be expected to play cat and mouse.

[i*m-stilll-here]

Also, even though you may have to wait until you actually have the strikes on your account, call eBay at that time and they will remove the strike(s).

That won't be an issue.

You've just described one big glitch in they system.

Even when sellers agree to a shipping cost, then can always increase that or simply refuse to plug the cost in (and they often do) if they don't care for the selling price.

In those cases you can also get a strike.

Very Twisted.

The strikes will be removed at your request but it's a huge PITA and time consuming because you have to make that phone call to eBay and those calls are never short.

[femmefan1946]

I believe that ebay should have a mechanism involved that would make it impossible to bid or use the BIN feature on items where it is clearly stated that the item might not ship to Canada

There is. Seller's can Block countries if they do not want to ship.

To block buyers whose primary shipping address is in a country you don't ship to:

1. Go to My eBay.

2. Click the Account tab, and then click Site Preferences link on the left.

3. In the Selling Preferences section, scroll to Shipping preferences, and then click the Show link.

4. Click Exclude shipping locations from your listings.

5. Select one or more continents to exclude all countries on those continents. Or select Show all countries and check the specific countries you don't want to ship to.

6. All excluded countries you selected will appear on the lower section of the page.

7. You can select to apply these exclusions to all current live listings on a global level.

8. Click the Apply button to save your requirements.

   Didn't say it was easy.

[foreverlouis]

This entire issue of "USA sellers who do or do not sell to Canada" makes me insane.

I have emailed TONS of USA sellers who have either "will ship to Canada" in listing (but refuse to list postage or tell people to email for postage prices) or "USA only" but do not have the RED blocks on.

If you ever see the RED blocks on, you cannot even physically bid and they will not budge ever (in my experience). In the categories of item I buy, next to NONE of the USA sellers use the red blocks  .

I found a seller who USED to sell to Canada, now has the RED blocks and refuses to change their template that lists the shipping costs to Canada "because they do not feel like it". Despite me offering $9 single cd postage which is MORE than enough.

But yes a bunch of USA sellers who do not bother listing Canadian postage WILL sell to Canada. And some are amazing and decent people. However some are like pulling teeth and are not worth the effort.

*** But honestly if they DO NOT email you the postage cost, I would not even bid with them. *** There are some dreadful sellers on here. And if they refuse to answer an email (either because lazy, do not read emails, or they do not feel like it), imagine what a nightmare they are to deal with AFTER purchase.

I have ALSO seen USA sellers set up with FULL "will ship to Canada" with full postage prices (some even with Global Shipping Program prices) who might in some random line have "USA only" in their description IF you read down the entire auction for line after line after line. Some do not even know they are signed up for GSP. So if you DO win, despite seeing the auction IS Canada approved (and yes this did happen to me) they will refuse to sell to Canada.

Now the most normal/rational sellers will simply do a "cancel" order if the buyer has not paid (and then the buyer has to agree of course, which if they refuse to send item to Canada, what else can you do really) and the seller gets their fees back. And of course you cannot pay IF the USA seller refuses to send you an invoice when postage is NOT listed in an auction. I even win auctions where the USA seller HAS approved the Canadian postage and DOES NOT REALIZE they have to actually SEND me an invoice with the postage added before I can pay.

I also had a seller who despite telling me the postage AND me paying EXTRA on the postage, took both a week to send me the invoice AND gave me an "unpaid" notice on the very same day.

The worst part is I cannot find ANY place on Ebay to report these practices. People have no clue how rampant this problem is.

[2011limey1]

No, you're not crazy - at least I don't think you are ( LOL. ) But I don't think the Seller's has poor ethics.  Obvious to me anyway, is that if I see someone doesn't ship to Canada - I just move on and don't pursue it with him/her - I just don't bother asking, as I know (or think) they'll charge too much for shipping if they decide to (and we're not talking GSP either - forget that nonsense.)  From what I understand you were bidding on auctions, not even sure they would ship to Canada - I realize you had emailed him/her to see if they would and you didn't hear back.  That must have made you think they didn't. and although Seller maybe should have sent a msge back I definitely wouldn't have started bidding.

Of course asking as many questions as you think of is good - just once as I once posted a Saved Seller (or should I say now "Sellers you Follow!"  who I bought from in the States, just makeup that's been discontinued here - so LOW $.  I msgd her when I saw she had opted in for GSP. She didn't know what it meant at all and was wondering why she was losing her Cdn. sellers, like me.  She quickly opted out and I got what I wanted.

[ciny2k]

I've purchased from US sellers that say they don't ship to Canada, but I contacted them first before bidding. My rule of thumb is that if a seller won't return my messages, it's much better to find out before bidding! And it doesn't matter where they're from. I've had Canadian sellers not bother to answer my questions about their listed items. Like I want to get tangled up with that kind of seller - no thanks. There's plenty of nice sellers that want to make sales, and I'll stick with them. 

[nerdboy_0690]

NO YOUR NOT CRAZY had the same thing happen to me....I have found there is "Different Rules" for American ebay sellers.