My Scenario

[dbrynen]

Hi all,

I recently sold a PS4 game (aprox. $45) to an individual in Quebec on the 27th of July. I got the buyer's payment fine and shipped within two business days from Ottawa via Canada Post without tracking.

The buyer contacts me at 4AM today by opening up a complaint and stating that "the item is very late" and marks that it has not arrived. While I understand this is very rare, but can happen, I ask him to give it a couple more days (17 business days as eBay states) and check with neighbors. I also ask him if this has ever happened before and receive a reply telling me that it has not.

Here's where it gets a little weird:

I then take it upon myself to review the little feedback he has (6, all marked as "positive") and I notice one left by a reputable seller (200 feedback, 99.5% positive) within the past month who had written that there were some issues. I contact the person who left the my buyer the feedback and he explains to me that our mutual buyer had an identical issue where he didn't get a PS4 game he bought and he was forced to give him a full refund.

Given that this has now happened twice in 30 days which may indicate something fishy, do I have a chance with eBay customer support? Or will they likely make me give the buyer a full refund?

Appreciate any feedback.

[pjcdn2005]

One other similar situation won't mean anything to customer service.You can phone in and let cs know the situation and ask them to check to see if the buyer has had numerous refunds for inr's. They won't give you much information but hopefully they will keep some sort of record of the call.

But if you don't have delivery confirmation showing that the buyer received the item it's very unlikely that cs will take your side.

[mr.elmwood]

The cheapest shipping method in Canada is Expedited which is tracked. You get Expedited by either having a Ventureone card or by using Paypal shipping.

That the customer doesn't get all their mail means nothing.

[pjcdn2005]

The cheapest shipping method in Canada is Expedited which is tracked.

I'm not sure why you are mentioning shipping services but it sounds as if the OP used lettermail and that is definitely much cheaper than expedited.

[mr.elmwood]

Pardon me, my brain defaults to parcel.

[dbrynen]

I did indeed use letter mail hence the no tracking code. Probably won't do that ever again..

Also just to add, I also came across another individual (over 200+ feedback) who had shipped a PS4 game which this buyer claimed not to receive. Including myself, that would be the third case in under a month of him claiming not to receive a video game which surely raises alarm bells with Customer Service, no?

[pjcdn2005]

Well it raises alarm bells for me but I don't know if cs will feel the same way. 

But it can't hurt to try.

[pjcdn2005]

I did indeed use letter mail hence the no tracking code. Probably won't do that ever again..

The problem is that if you use expedited, you probably won't sell very much as it is expensive to send items that way.

Many of us self insure and add a little bit to the amount of postage that we charge so that the 'extra' amount makes

up for future losses.  However, it's possible that your category has more losses than other categories.

[mr.elmwood]

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@pjcdn2005 wrote:

I did indeed use letter mail hence the no tracking code. Probably won't do that ever again..

The problem is that if you use expedited, you probably won't sell very much as it is expensive to send items that way.

Many of us self insure and add a little bit to the amount of postage that we charge so that the 'extra' amount makes

up for future losses.  However, it's possible that your category has more losses than other categories.

---

Exactly the same as if I moved from Small Packet To expedited. My sales would drop to zero. I self insure. I am a lot of money ahead.

[pierrelebel]

" I self insure. I am a lot of money ahead"

Most Canadian sellers should follow your lead and not worry too much about a few claims.

[mr.elmwood]

If I need to refund a $50 sale, free shipping, that cost me $8.13 Cdn ($6.37 US) to mail, all I can lose is the $8.13 ($6.37 US). I cannot lose unrealized profit.

[pjcdn2005]

You also lose the original cost of the item. Keep in mind that not everyone has margins as high as you do.

Although I realize that shipping without tracking is necessary for many of us...it is easier for some than for others.

[rose-dee]

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@pjcdn2005 wrote:

You also lose the original cost of the item.

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That's quite true, at least in an INR claim such as the one the OP is describing, where the item either never does show up or it eventually shows up but the buyer never does repay the seller for a refund given (which I imagine can happen at times). 

For sellers whose margins are tight and/or volume low, a loss like this can be significant.  Still, as you say, not all of us can afford tracking.  For a $45 item, it's hard for a small seller to justify using Expedited. 

To the OP:  You might want to consider 3rd party insurance if they will cover your type of items.  At least it would be less expensive than the increased cost of tracking.  

In my view, so-called "Cookie Jar Insurance" (self-insurance) is great for sellers with larger volumes, but hard to do successfully if your transaction volume is fairly low, unless you're willing to put aside a couple of dollars on each sale.  Then you might as well be using 3rd party coverage. 

[tobyshitzu]

all buying 3rd party insurance will do is to guarantee a loss higher then theft/mail loss will be.  

OP, Ive had a few of cases like yours with games where I knew without a doubt I was dealing with a scammer.  So I confronted them, told them what I knew (what other sellers had said, or in one case figuring out they were selling the "not received" items on another id).  I told them i'd report what I knew to Canada Post to investigate what is going on as perhaps their mail carrier is stealing their mail with so many items not arriving.  In 2 cases it worked and the buyer "remembered"receiving it after all and paid me back the money they had already stolen from me.  You wouldn't actually get anywhere reporting it to CP or police, but the buyer doesn't necessarily know that

If you are going to sell them here you will lose one once in awhile, but not often   

[rose-dee]

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@toby**bleep**zu wrote:

all buying 3rd party insurance will do is to guarantee a loss higher then theft/mail loss will be.  

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How so?  I don't know about your 3rd party insurer, but mine insures widely, with some reasonable exceptions (such as incorrectly addressed or badly packaged parcels, and parcels going to some problematic countries).  It covers anything sent by any service through Canada Post.  In the OP's situation, with a simple online declaration made by the intended recipient, I would have got the entire selling value back.  

How does that add to the loss in such a situation?

[tobyshitzu]

I would not be foolish enough to pay a third party insurer, who obviously has to take in much much more then they will ever pay out. 

[pjcdn2005]

I believe that toby is saying if that you consistently use third party insurance it will cost you more than you would have lost if you did not have insurance.

Let's say you insured everything over $50, that your cost on each item was $30  and that you sell 15 items a month of about the same value.

If you purchased insurance every month for 15 parcels, the total insurance cost would be $270/yr. Even if you lost one parcel every three months which is really high, the approx cost to you would be $90/yr without insurance versus $270 with insurance.

[rose-dee]

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@pjcdn2005 wrote:

I believe that toby is saying if that you consistently use third party insurance it will cost you more than you would have lost if you did not have insurance.

Let's say you insured everything over $50, that your cost on each item was $30  and that you sell 15 items a month of about the same value.

If you purchased insurance every month for 15 parcels, the total insurance cost would be $270/yr. Even if you lost one parcel every three months which is really high, the approx cost to you would be $90/yr without insurance versus $270 with insurance.

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Yes, that's quite true, and I do understand, but I think the OP was saying that his/her issue is being concerned about sending $45 items via letter mail and having no tracking.  

The OP mentioned they wouldn't repeat this experience ("I did indeed use letter mail hence the no tracking code. Probably won't do that ever again.."), and I was suggesting an alternative to tracked shipping that would be considerably less expensive overall yet still provide some comfort in these (admittedly rather rare situations).  

The way I see it is that a monetary loss is more easily absorbed for a seller with higher volumes (lower proportion of losses as a percentage of sales), and therefore some means of insurance (whether self-insurance, tracking or 3rd party coverage) is not a bad idea until you get established. 

If the OP is going to consider using only tracking for all their ca. $45 items, that will be far more costly than spending a dollar or two per item for 3rd party insurance.  At a volume of 10 items per month at ca. $45, that extra $1 or $2 could be built into the pricing.  But trying to absorb into pricing some or all of the difference between letter mail cost and Expedited (within Canada) or Tracked Packet (elsewhere) is a pretty tall order for a smaller seller.  

At the volume mentioned, with tracking on every item, the OP would end up forking out an extra $5 to $8 or so per item, times 10 per month, or about $600 to $800 per year, a large chunk of profit gone.  

As I mentioned, I think self-insurance works if you have a reasonably good monthly transaction rate, because the percentage odds of a delivery issue are in your favour.  Not so if your turnover is low.   

I think these factors are especially important if the OP is a fairly new or very low volume/occasional seller, as appears from their FB and items currently for sale.  One more defect for complaints about late delivery or INR and the OP may be in some trouble trying to sell successfully here.  

So I was really only suggesting 3rd party insurance to the OP in their particular circumstances.  In my own situation, I only use such insurance for valuable items where the Canada Post charges would be higher, and even then perhaps only 2 or 3 times a year.  

But I have really lovely, adult buyers, in a rather "safe", low-fraud category, so mostly I take my chances with (untracked) Small/Light Packet.  So far, so good.  

[rose-dee]

One more defect for complaints about late delivery or INR and the OP may be in some trouble trying to sell successfully here.  

_____________________________________________________________________________________

Whoops, sorry, scratch that.  Obviously insurance isn't going to prevent defects.  Just save excess costs.  

It's so hot here (79 o F) and humid (100%) that I can hardly think straight today.  We're just not used to this kind of heat here.  

I'm hanging around on the boards because it's impossible to do anything else today.  Any movement at all just results in more discomfort.  The dog has the right idea -- he hasn't moved an inch from his spot for hours, lying in front of the electric fan (no air conditioning around here!). 

[dbrynen]

Appreciate the replies everyone.

After being in contact with other sellers this exact same situation with the same buyer has apparently happened to 5 of us now. I don't think eBay can possibly take the side of a seller who has claimed to not received 5 purchases in less than a month.