Shill Bidding?

[toysandstuff2015]

I recently bid on a camera lens in a location near to me so that I don't have to deal with customs and such.  I was on the only bidder on the item until a new user appeared and bid it up to the winning amount.  However near the end of the bidding process the seller messaged urging me to keep bidding.  Afterwards they contacted me again stating that the winning user, the new user, now didn't answer their requests to pay for the item, so I could just pay their winning bid and get it.  I did not answer any of these messages.  Now two days later the same item is up, I have bid on it, but so too is the new user again bidding.  They have only bid on this sellers's items - all camera lens - and seem only to bid up items, win them and then leave the seller to relist them later.  Is this shill bidding?

[ypdc_dennis]

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@toysandstuff2015 wrote:

I recently bid on a camera lens in a location near to me so that I don't have to deal with customs and such.  I was on the only bidder on the item until a new user appeared and bid it up to the winning amount.  However near the end of the bidding process the seller messaged urging me to keep bidding.  Afterwards they contacted me again stating that the winning user, the new user, now didn't answer their requests to pay for the item, so I could just pay their winning bid and get it.  I did not answer any of these messages.  Now two days later the same item is up, I have bid on it, but so too is the new user again bidding.  They have only bid on this sellers's items - all camera lens - and seem only to bid up items, win them and then leave the seller to relist them later.  Is this shill bidding?

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Strong possibility based on your info.

A non-paying buyer normally takes 4 days to process, so an almost immediate 2nd chance message to buy is very suspect (unless the seller has extra items available).

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[toysandstuff2015]

Yes the second chance offers are minutes after the bidding ends. 

[i.am.vivian]

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@toysandstuff2015 wrote:

Is this shill bidding?

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Yes.  Unfortunately it is also not unusual on eBay and nothing is ever done about it.  There is a policy saying it is not allowed but that it only to protect eBay legally.  You need to protect yourself.  Your choices are either keep playing this shiller's seller's game until you pay their price, or find a more honest seller to deal with.  That's the nice thing about shopping with Buy It Now.  No games, tricks, lies. No shills.  You get your item sent out right away at a fair price you are happy with.

[reallynicestamps · Accepted solution]

I recently bid on a camera lens

I was on the only bidder

new user appeared and bid it up to the winning amount. 

All normal so far. Most bidding takes place in the last few hours (or seconds!) of auctions

near the end of the bidding process the seller messaged urging me to keep bidding.

Weird, there is no reason to do this. 

the new user, now didn't answer their requests to pay for the item

Sellers must wait four days to open an Unpaid Item Dispute. Any less time is, again, weird.

two days later the same item is up, I have bid on it,

so too is the new user again bidding. 

Personally, I would politely send the scammer seller a polite note telling him politely that if he is being 'stalked' by an unwelcome bidder that he can use his Seller Preferences to automatically Block bids from that person.

Then I would retract my own bid and move on.

"Politely"-- Captain Malcolm Reynolds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZ3k2xA1Wcw

[femmefan1946]

near the end of the bidding process the seller messaged urging me to keep bidding.

Weird, there is no reason to do this. 

Actually, are you sure it was the seller and not eBay? They do encourage winning bidders to raise their bids.

[obsidianic]

Yeah, it is normal for eBay to automatically send you an email saying that you were outbidded and to politely urge you to bid more.

I came across my own shill, who was pretty obvious.  I was looking to buy an old CPU:  Intel 8400.  One seller had four separate auctions, starting at $3.99.  I bid the minimum on one of the auctions.  Hours before the auction ended, someone else outbid me.  I didn't bother placing another bid on any of the four auctions.

Now, when I check the Completed Auctions, of the four, the one I bid on was the ONLY auction to get any bids at all.

http://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=e8400&LH_PrefLoc=1&LH_Complete=1&rt=nc&_trksid...

Nice try, but I guess trying to squeeze a few cents more than me results in you getting $0 from me because I won't buy a thing from you ever.

[i.am.vivian]

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@obsidianic wrote:

I came across my own shill, who was pretty obvious.  I was looking to buy an old CPU:  Intel 8400.  One seller had four separate auctions, starting at $3.99.  I bid the minimum on one of the auctions.  Hours before the auction ended, someone else outbid me.  I didn't bother placing another bid on any of the four auctions.

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Being outbid at the end does not at all mean shilling.  It CAN, because there are a few sellers who think that pretending to be a sniper on their own auctions will mask their shilling while driving the price up.  But most of the time those bids near the end are someone who wants the item.  If their bid is higher they win.  

Maybe that is what happened with your Intel 8400 item.  If you liked this one the best, is it so unusual to suppose someone else did too?  And what if the other buyer figured that because this one had a bid on it, it must be the better of the lot?

I still say using Buy It Now is the way to go to get a good item at a fair price, with no irritation or annoyance.  Because even if there is no shilling but the buyer only THINKS there is, that leaves a rotten feeling about it all.  

Also when you buy from a seller using BIN, you know they are generally a straight-up person who, like you, also wants to conduct a fair transaction.  That's just my opinion.  

[reallynicestamps]

One thing about shill bidders -- they don't want to win.

So if you are outbid, there probably was no shilling. (Or the shiller was really bad at it.)

The 'tells' on shill bidding are bid retractions and a bidder with bids placed with only one seller.

And even the latter isn't a postive indication.

We had a newbie bidder who bought dozens of similar items (full sheets of modern Canadian stamps) from us over a few months while ignoring every other stamp dealer offering the same. It got embarrassing after a while, since at the time bidders' names were not masked.

[i.am.vivian]

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reallynicestamps wrote:

One thing about shill bidders -- they don't want to win.

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They do if they are not willing to take less than a certain price.  Those stupid 99 cent auctions are the worst for making them think it will attract lots of bidders.  It only attracts bargain hunters.  If a seller wants $80 they are not going to let it go for $20 even if that is the highest the bidder will go.  The seller would "lose" $60.  Better to lose a 30 cent listing fee and cancel the sale on their shill ID.  

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reallynicestamps wrote:

The 'tells' on shill bidding are bid retractions and a bidder with bids placed with only one seller.

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The smart ones know that and so place bids on other items, other valuable items with 99 cent starts so they won't win.  Careless ones get lazy and don't, and why should they when nothing is ever done about shilling no matter how obvious.  

Retractions show on the page and only work if the bidder has placed a high enough bid to suit the shiller so that the shiller can come along later and bid just under that.  Its not very effective and not widely used because its too obvious.  

Its like a hobby with some of them, or a game.  Maybe they think they sell more.  If they end up with unhapppy buyers who feel they've paid too much or worse, I don't feel sorry for them.    

I'd rather deal fairly with people who themselves prefer to deal fairly with others.  That's why I recommend Buy It Now.  The buyer knows what the price is.  No games.  No tricks.  Just business.  

[obsidianic]

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@i.am.vivian wrote:

Being outbid at the end does not at all mean shilling.

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I realize that, but it was pretty obvious in this particular case.  The same seller had four auctions/BIN of the exact same item, all using the same photo and description.  It's just a CPU, so it either works or not.  There was no reason to bid on the same one I did when the other bidder could have gotten it for 50c less, had he bid on one of the other identical auctions.  And it was hours before the end, not minutes.

For auctions, I usually snipe, but I figure that no one else would bother bidding.  No big loss.  The seller still has auctions for the same item going, but I'll pay a few $ more to get it from someone else.  We're talking chump change here (<$12, including shipping).  I am tempted to bid early again, hoping they will get someone to shill again, so they have to pay eBay fees 😄 .

[towertreasuretrove]

Similariliy, I hate it when a a (0) bidder hikes up one of my items on a buyer. I recently had an item that I expected maybe $30 for, which was my starting bid. I had one bidder which I was more than happy with. Then, near the end, a (0) bidder bid the item up in $5  increments to over $70.The first bidder ended up winning and probably should never have made his original bid so high.Still, I weirdly felt badly about it, so  I discounted the $14 shipping charge. Buy It Now, next time....

[i.am.vivian]

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@towertreasuretrove wrote:

Similariliy, I hate it when a a (0) bidder hikes up one of my items on a buyer. I recently had an item that I expected maybe $30 for, which was my starting bid. I had one bidder which I was more than happy with. Then, near the end, a (0) bidder bid the item up in $5  increments to over $70.The first bidder ended up winning and probably should never have made his original bid so high.Still, I weirdly felt badly about it, so  I discounted the $14 shipping charge. Buy It Now, next time....

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This is the first time I've ever seen a seller complain about getting too much at auction.  So much "too much" that they dropped off the shipping fee. 

Well that was nice of you.  But your buyer would not have bid $70 if they didn't think the item was worth it.  Up to you if you would rather have $30 plus shipping.  Most sellers, including that 2000+ feedback reseller who buys from you, would take the auction price AND  the shipping fee.  I don't see that particular auction you describe, but the auction price for the Canons you sell seems to get to around $70 so that would be about right.  I am sure both the bidders and any winners knew what they were doing.  I've just never heard of a seller wishing to urge buyers to bid LESS.  

Up to you if you would rather have $30 + $14, instead of $70 + $14, or even just the $70 you settled for.  Nice of you, but that sure is a first.   🙂 

[towertreasuretrove]

You're probably right....I didn't think about a reseller.....I won't do it again! I think I was feeling the Chridtmas spirit, lol....