eBay

kashka · ‎08-15-2014

With the new Fall update,from what I understand (barely) is it only US sellers (domestic) that will have to pay for the return shipping if a buyer decides an item is SNAD? I checked the weekly .ca chat and Pierre asked if this would apply to Canadian sellers and it seems .ca doesn't know yet and are "ironing" out the details.Am I reading this right?..as this will be the final nail for me if it is. I sell..or at least used to sell on .com.Thanks

pierrelebel · ‎08-15-2014

From eBay (post # 22):

We are still ironing out such details and will make them available as the launch date gets closer. We are working diligently to ensure that common sense is indeed observed and that the policy is as fair as possible for everyone. Sorry to not have more to say about this at this time.

To confuse the issue, (post #23)

"A similar announcement re changes to the user agreement will go up on eBay.ca soon. The changes will be identical. There is in fact only one eBay user agreement that we translate into many languages. It is in the process of being localized and deployed for Canadians and this will happen soon. The user agreement changes applies to all users, irrespective of which site they registered on, or where they list. The process of notifying all users in all countries typically takes a few weeks."

Finally (post # 24)

"As stated earlier, these are all details that are being currently decided on. We will make this information available as we get closer to the launch date."

http://community.ebay.ca/t5/Weekly-Board-Hour-Session/August-13th-2014-Weekly-Board-Hour/m-p/257855#...

pierrelebel · ‎08-15-2014

On one hand eBay says some rules (seller pays for returned shipping) only applies to US domestic transactions

then, on the other hand, "There is in fact only one eBay user agreement "

Finally "We are still ironing out such details"

Are you confused? I am.

cumos55 · ‎08-15-2014

There are differences between the User Agreement for eBay.ca as compared to the User Agreement for eBay.com.

Some of the differences are due to the laws within each country, Canada vs US, and how eBay relates to those laws .

What is said in relation to the question about return shipping on SNAD may be the same for both User Agreements.

and in this context the rules for this one question will be the same.

cumos55 · ‎08-15-2014

will be the same

Or

Should be the same.

rose-dee · ‎08-15-2014

@pierrelebel wrote:

Are you confused? I am.

Yes, it's still as clear as mud to me.

"Hassle free returns", according to the eBay.ca staffers, apparently doesn't yet apply to .ca, but may at some point in the not too distant future, and is not the same thing as the new returns policy, although the former is in force on .com.

"Guaranteed returns" -- I have no idea whether that's the same policy they were discussing on Wednesday, as that label was mentioned here and there.

The new returns policy (whatever it will be called) doesn't yet apply, details aren't yet "ironed out", but will apply to Canadian sellers at some point soon.

This is of course is in addition to the fact that a lot of things about the policy itself make no sense to me to begin with. I think there's a lot of "ironing" to do.

pjcdn2005 · ‎08-16-2014

The hassle free return program where the labels will automatically be printed out is for U.S. sellers only. I've haven't read anything about it being applied for Canadian sellers in the near future.

Separate from the hassle free return program is a new 'after sales experience' that will require any seller that lists on .com or .ca to pay return shipping in the case of a snad. It is not in effect yet but it will definitely apply to Canadian sellers. I believe that some of the details that are not worked out yet are whether or not there will be a limit to the cost of the return shipping and how that part of it will work. According to the information that I've read, it is only the hfr program that will provide an automatic return label so that shouldn't be the situation here.

Even if a seller has a 'no return' policy and a buyer claims a snad, the seller will have to either pay for the return or agree to refund without a return.

kashka · ‎08-16-2014

Thankyou everyone for your replies,if you are all confused then I don't feel so bad that I do not understand either. I guess with all the "ironing" out that needs to be done yet I will just sit tight and will continue to watch things unfold(no pun intended)..Luckily, sales elsewhere are increasing every week and it just may be time to cast this venue aside.I temporarily quit listing here in the spring just to observe how the new changes affects sellers and with the hack,defects,search all messed up and now these latest changes,its not looking very good..Again,thanks for your input.

rose-dee · ‎08-16-2014

@pjcdn2005 wrote:
The hassle free return program where the labels will automatically be printed out is for U.S. sellers only. I've haven't read anything about it being applied for Canadian sellers in the near future.

Separate from the hassle free return program is a new 'after sales experience' that will require any seller that lists on .com or .ca to pay return shipping in the case of a snad.

Yes, but my point was that there are too many variations on the same sort of theme, with too many different terms. What's the point of advance notification of something that isn't yet fully conceptualized and appears to duplicate other policies? Why not wait until they actually have the details, then announce, then give us a grace period before implementation? I just think this "hide and seek" method of making policy announcements is ludicrous. Announce it when you've got the details right!

Another thing that makes me shake my head in disbelief is that, by attempting to tailor policy to each particular situation or platform, we end up with a confusing plethora of names for what is by and large the same concept. For example, at the moment we have (depending on whether you sell in the US or Canada: "Hassle Free Returns", "Money Back Guarantee" (are these the same???), "After Sales Experience", "Managed Returns", "GSP returns", and last but not least, seller return policies, set by the seller him/herself. All of that considered together sounds like a bit of a corporate mess to me.

I recall there was a mention at the recent Wed. open board that the "hassle free returns" would at some point be introduced in Canada. I'll see if I can find the comment and post it here.

rose-dee · ‎08-16-2014

In this regard, check the comment by Raphael (Post #29, pg. 2 of the Aug. 13 weekly board):

"a) Hassle-Free Returns only applies for seller shipping from inside the US. For the time being we don't have the resources necessary to replicate that program in Canada."

He didn't say there are no plans to implement it here, or that it won't be implemented in Canada - which he could have said in response -- but rather that it's a matter of resources (which we all know can change). It's an open door, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Canadian sellers subject to it at some point, to fall in line with the US.

pierrelebel · ‎08-16-2014

"He didn't say there are no plans to implement it here, or that it won't be implemented in Canada "

In the meantime his boss clearly stated that the User Agreement is the same in the USA and Canada (other than translation) although there could be some timing differences.

Since the "seller pays for return shipping charge' clause will be incorporated in the User Agreement on .com under the new expanded eBay's Buyer Guarantee, one can expect it will be part of all eBay sites pretty soon,

Also, I wonder how Canadian sellers listing on eBay.com and/or eBay.ca will be affected when "shipping from inside the USA". Many Canadians do by crossing the border with their parcels (using cheaper USPS) or using a carrier who does.

pjcdn2005 · ‎08-16-2014

The OP was asking about what was going to be implemented here and I answered the question. The hfr program is not part of the fall update for Canadian sellers so I clarified that.

I agree that they should not have announced such a major change without all of the details worked out as that does muddy the waters. There are a couple of similarities within the different programs but that might be part of the process to standardize certain policies within a country and for other ebay sites. It can be confusing and I think that the ebay.com update being available a few hours before the .ca update made it even more confusing because of the differences. But it's not just us who don't understand all of the updates as U.S. sellers are confused as well.

I do read some of the U.S. boards regularly so I am already familiar with some of their programs but for those who aren't familiar with them..

The hassle free return program has been optional in the U.S. for a while and the seller who is opted in can either automatically pay for a buyer's shipping in the case of a regular return or require the buyer to pay for the return. The exception is when a buyer claims a snad as the seller has to then pay for the return shipping. As announced, the program will eventually be mandatory for all U.S. sellers.

Managed returns = Hassle free returns I'm not positive but I think that the original hfr program was called managed returns.

We basically have the ebay Money Back Guarantee now but it is not called that because .ca shoppers have to put in a claim through Paypal (not ebay) when there is a problem with a purchase. In the U.S., the claims have been going through the ebay MBG program and that is going to be standardized between the 2 sites. It is not the same as hassle free returns.

After sales experience seems to be a buzz word that refers to all of the processes that can happen after a purchase including how cases are open,returns, cancellations, contacting the seller etc. It will be interesting to see how they will change the options for contacting a seller after a sale. Sellers have been complaining that buyers open a case without meaning too and the new process is supposed to make it easier for a buyer to ask a question about certain things such as 'how does this work?' without opening a case.

Seller return policies aren't really changing as sellers already had to accept returns (or refund outright) when an item was not as described. They still can decide whether or not to accept regular returns and whether or not they pay for returns (except in a snad case)

pjcdn2005 · ‎08-16-2014

@pierrelebel wrote:
"He didn't say there are no plans to implement it here, or that it won't be implemented in Canada "

In the meantime his boss clearly stated that the User Agreement is the same in the USA and Canada (other than translation) although there could be some timing differences.

Since the "seller pays for return shipping charge' clause will be incorporated in the User Agreement on .com under the new expanded eBay's Buyer Guarantee, one can expect it will be part of all eBay sites pretty soon,

Also, I wonder how Canadian sellers listing on eBay.com and/or eBay.ca will be affected when "shipping from inside the USA". Many Canadians do by crossing the border with their parcels (using cheaper USPS) or using a carrier who does.

Very true.....they did say the User Agreement is the same other than the timing and as the hfr program is mentioned in the agreement under 'Returns' it does sound as if the hfr program will eventually be here and elsewhere. I guess we will have to wait to see if it will be exactly like the U.S. program is now.

Just to clarify...the seller paying for return shipping clauses under the ebay Money Back Guarantee does not apply to regular returns but just for 'problem' (not as described, broken etc) returns.

The HFR program also requires sellers to pay return shipping for 'problem' returns and it gives seller's a choice of whether or not they will pay return shipping for other returns that involve buyer's remorse, not fit issues etc.

Like many other sellers, I don't have a problem paying for return shipping when the item is not as described or in some cases, refunding without a return. But I would be more comfortable with the situation if we were allowed a larger percentage for unresolved cases. The .3% allowance is very low so even if a seller is convinced that the buyer does not have a legitimate snad case, they may be reluctant to challenge it in case they lose and end up with an unresolved case.

If ebay is going to insist that we have to pay for return shipping in some cases, we should have better options for challenging those cases. I suspect that in the past, buyers who changed their mind about a purchase did not ask for a return because they didn't want to pay for return shipping. But the new rules make it more beneficial for them to say that the item wasn't as described even if that isn't true. Some buyers will quickly figure out that some sellers will not challenge them on cases like that.

pierrelebel · ‎08-16-2014

"If ebay is going to insist that we have to pay for return shipping in some cases"

That could prove to be a real problem IF eBay insists in using the same policy as PayPal: must be returned with tracking. That could prove very expensive in many instances, more so when the item has low value or where lettermail/letterpost is the most appropriate method of shipping (and returning)..

When asked, eBay staff had no answer other than they are still working it out and will use "common sense". That would be a first!

pjcdn2005 · ‎08-16-2014

I have to admit that the 'common sense' answer does make me nervous!

holdmygold2 · ‎08-16-2014

When contacted about even a small problem with an item, EBay/Paypal (not sure which) has been paying return shipping for items bought and sold within the US for a long time.

Transferring that responsibility to the seller is just one small step from that.

However, they won't touch items outside of the States.

rose-dee · ‎08-17-2014

@pjcdn2005 wrote:

I do read some of the U.S. boards regularly so I am already familiar with some of their programs but for those who aren't familiar with them..
The hassle free return program [...]
Managed returns = Hassle free returns I'm not positive but I think that the original hfr program was called managed returns.
We basically have the ebay Money Back Guarantee now but it is not called that because .ca shoppers have to put in a claim through Paypal (not ebay) when there is a problem with a purchase. [...]

After sales experience seems to be a buzz word that refers to all of the processes that can happen after a purchase [...]

Seller return policies aren't really changing as sellers already had to accept returns (or refund outright) when an item was not as described. [...]

Although these explanations will be helpful to those who don't understand the many faces of eBay's post-sales policies, they make my point exactly: too many variations on one theme that require endless explanation and reiteration in order to make sense.

I can imagine a relative newcomer to eBay being aghast at reading this and wondering whether it's worth the trouble to start selling here.

By attempting to cover every possible situation, eBay has created a confusing mess, with one policy or procedure either duplicating another to one extent or another, or contradicting another to one extent or another. It's what I'd call legal accretion -- one layer of policy barnacles on top of another, if you'll forgive the metaphor, until you almost no longer have a boat that floats.

The only way to really fix it is to apply true "common sense", scrape it all away and start off with something that applies to (and works for) most sellers, and for heaven's sake, give it one name.

Perhaps they should have left the whole returns question in the hands of the sellers themselves to begin with, and simply allowed demerits - visible to buyers - to be left for those sellers with too many returns complaints. That way, sellers would soon create user-friendly and sensible returns policies, dictated by the marketplace itself. But that's eBay: meddle, meddle, meddle and uber-control.

pierrelebel · ‎08-17-2014

From eBay-Canada country manager:

"A similar announcement re changes to the user agreement will go up on eBay.ca soon. The changes will be identical. There is in fact only one eBay user agreement that we translate into many languages. It is in the process of being localized and deployed for Canadians and this will happen soon. The user agreement changes applies to all users, irrespective of which site they registered on, or where they list. The process of notifying all users in all countries typically takes a few weeks."

Yet, the announcement on eBay.com specifically states that all "domestic" will be hassle free by Fall 2015 while, according to eBay-Canada, "The only situation where eBay will force the seller to pay for return shipping is if the item was not as described."

Just to add a bit to the overall confusion:

"As a buyer, does this mean sellers in Europe or Asia will provide return shipping to Canadians?

Yes, the same rules apply if the buyer purchases the items on eBay.ca or eBay.com."

====================================================

Finally, keeping in mind that the User Agreement is the same on eBay.com and eBay.ca (according to eBay.ca country manager), take a good look at:

When an item doesn't match the listing description

If a buyer receives an item that doesn't match the listing description, the buyer needs to request a return from My eBay. The seller should address the buyer's concern and offer a solution, such as accepting a return, offering a replacement or refund.

If the buyer doesn't receive a response or solution, or returns the item but doesn't receive a refund or replacement from the seller, the buyer can ask us to step in and help.

If asked to step in and help, we review the item description and any other information about the item that the buyer and seller provide. If we can't determine that the item matches the listing description, if the seller has already offered a return, or the seller's stated return window and policy applies, we may ask the buyer to return the item to the seller.

When an item is returned to the seller

The buyer must return the item in the same condition in which it was received.
The seller is required to accept the return at the same location specified in the listing.
The cost of return shipping is the seller's responsibility. For return of items with a total cost of $750 or more, we require signature confirmation.
The seller pays for any customs charges on the returned item.

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/money-back-guarantee.html

Are you still confused by the many contradictions? I am.

pjcdn2005 · ‎08-17-2014

There are definitely some changes that I have questions about but I'm not sure exactly what contradictions you are referring to in your post. Perhaps I'm just missing the obvious.

Yet, the announcement on eBay.com specifically states that all "domestic" will be hassle free by Fall 2015 while, according to eBay-Canada, "The only situation where eBay will force the seller to pay for return shipping is if the item was not as described."

He also mentioned that the timing of the changes might be different so while hassle free returns will be for all domestic sales on .com by the holiday season of 2015, it may take longer before that program is available on .ca. (preferably never) 🙂

The last sentence of your quoted statement doesn't seem to contradict the first statement as both the hassle free return program and money back guarantee program require a seller to pay return shipping only if the item is not described.

The new money back guarantee program starts on ebay. com Sept 15th, 2014 and on .ca "later this fall".

In Canada, it basically replaces the paypal buyer protection plan with the addition of the seller having to pay return shipping for domestic and international sales that are snad.

The hassle free returns program will make domestic buyers remorse and snad returns more automated. Sellers can choose to pay return shipping for all types of returns but are only required to pay return shipping for snad returns.

pierrelebel · ‎08-17-2014

I should have been more specific.

The main contradiction I have seen in the information supplied by .com and .ca is that .com refers to "domestic" transactions only where sellers will have to pay return postage for snad returns while .ca refers to all transactions, domestic and international.