Canadian SIN number now being demanded by managed payments team? is this no longer optional?

[coldwintersport]

Hi, 

Hopefully I can get some help / traction here.

I was forced to sign up on the first of Jan 1 2021 to the MP program, via a very threatening time sensitive email.  It did not disclose any additional personal information being required of me, so extremely misleading.  I would not have signed up, and closed my 17 year account if it was disclosed.  

I had a single small sale go through fine shortly after.  My second much larger sale was held, and "additional account information" was required.  I didn't thing much of it, and shipped off the item to be on time, trusting this to be resolved via a click on a form immediately.  Nope!

I provided all the extra information, and even gave photo id.  I was not about to provide my "optional" Canadian SIN.  I received an auto generated email four days later "not accepted".  I went back in and reviewed all my information, and it was all accurate.  Once again it was asking for additional photo id, so I uploaded the same ones again.  Four days later "not accepted".  Now I attempted to get some support.  Turns out there is only a chat function, and your gave to go through a lower tier agent, before even reaching a MP agent.  the wait time no matter what is listed is 45 min to one hour (my last chat session was over two hours long).  

So on my third chat attempt, I get the nuances.  You get a lower tier agent right away, so ask for MP team, don't even bother answering any questions.  You now wait the prescribed 45min to 1 hour.  Now when you do get the MP agent, get a case number right away, as you will get dropped, and re-shuffled to the lower agent at random.  The case number will help you re-connect, and save explaining your life again, and again, and again.  Now hopefully they can help.  

Supposedly my bottleneck was my missing middle name.    Entered, resolved, confirmed account was 100%.  Next day 'account held, need more information".

Repeat above process.

Now it was my birthday not being in the system correctly.  Somewhere in the previous registration, my DOB was polled and entered incorrectly.  This editable field no longer exists, and/or is linked to the new DOB field request.  So I enter my correct DOB, just as it appears on my provided ID.  Confirmed 100%, no problems, good to go.  Four days later, "account held, information does not match".

Repeat above process.

This chat session is my two hour run.  It goes low level agent, MP agent, dropped back to low level agent, then back to MP agent (a different one). this ate up the first hour.  Awesome.  So, I can not edit any of my information, and save it, as no fields get changed, as all my information is accurate.  Painful right?  The agent says he has a different DOB on file.  I ask where is the field for me to edit this?  the link takes me back to the form that I can not effect a change or save on.  Faulty database logic loop / bad code.  The agent has to manually edit / override the DOB.  So now one again everything is fingers crossed!

four days later......."information does not match"

the agent was really nice, and then another agent attempted to call me today, then followed up with an email.

Once again really nice.  

But, clearly in the e-mail it was written "We are unable to accept the document you provided because you have not provided your Social Insurance Number (SIN)."  

bizare, since the SIN field on the information form has the "optional" clearly beside it.

I sent out three orders so far this month, and only got paid for the first one.  I attempted to cancel the most recent as it is now a month of inventory loss / shipping cost accrual.....But, it gets better!

To cancel the order, I have to refund the buyer out of pocket, aside from the funds they already sent, as the MP program is holding these funds in escrow.  Pretty cool huh?

So as far as I can see... I am now an Ebay employee, ebay is now also a government agency, I get to pay buyer for the privilege of giving them inventory.

Finally on the physical phone with an agent right now.... after a three hour wait for a call back.

They attempted to tell me SIN was mandatory, and I informed them of the Canadian government directions to not provide it.  They now think it is a problem with their form.

fingers crossed, but not really expecting this to resolve.  I feel I will just have to collapse my account, and the buyer will have to file a claim, and then ebay can just pay out of my $2k they are holding, then use the rest for pizza.

[coldwintersport]

hahahah, nope.

options presented to me

1. enter my sin, and get it verified (doesn't matter that it's illegal request)

2.  create a ticket and the IT department will try to look at it, and see if they can fix it, and they may not even be able to.... oh and this may take months.

3.  your held funds will eventually go unclaimed, and a cheque will be sent to you

4.  the buyer will have to file a claim

Brutal.

[snoopwiz]

Found this (below) response from an eBay employee (Tyler) some months ago. Make of it what you will. 

 tyler@ebay

Re: Signing up for Managed Payment, SIN# why?

in reply to amcdc79 05-26-2020 06:19:04 PM

@amcdc79 wrote:

I don't have a store and my sales are fairly low so I'm sure that I'll be among the last of the sellers asked to sign up. 

A buddy of mine who does have a store was asked, and along with his financial information, ebay asked for his Social Insurance Number. Why?

Does ebay consider us to be employees? If so, what benefits do they offer other than paying us.

If I were to refuse to give my SIN# would I be asked to leave?

Lastly, come July, will PayPal no longer be on ebay? 

Hi @amcdc79 - no, you are not required to provide your SIN in order to enroll in payments. It is something that we ask for as an optional piece of information. Providing it allows us to more easily verify your identity, ensure compliance with applicable anti-money laundering and sanctions screening obligations. 

There are no ramifications for you or your account if you choose not to provide your SIN.

When it comes to PayPal - it will still be a method for buyers to pay for your items. Once in managed payments, however,  PayPal will not be a payout method for you. Instead you would receive funds to your chosen bank account. 

Thanks!

[snoopwiz]

@amcdc79 wrote:

I don't have a store and my sales are fairly low so I'm sure that I'll be among the last of the sellers asked to sign up. 

A buddy of mine who does have a store was asked, and along with his financial information, ebay asked for his Social Insurance Number. Why?

Does ebay consider us to be employees? If so, what benefits do they offer other than paying us.

If I were to refuse to give my SIN# would I be asked to leave?

Lastly, come July, will PayPal no longer be on ebay? 

Hi @amcdc79 - no, you are not required to provide your SIN in order to enroll in payments. It is something that we ask for as an optional piece of information. Providing it allows us to more easily verify your identity, ensure compliance with applicable anti-money laundering and sanctions screening obligations. 

There are no ramifications for you or your account if you choose not to provide your SIN.

When it comes to PayPal - it will still be a method for buyers to pay for your items. Once in managed payments, however,  PayPal will not be a payout method for you. Instead you would receive funds to your chosen bank account. 

Thanks!

[pjcdn2005]

There is a weekly chat where we can express concerns to an ebay rep and I put a link to this thread on that chat so that he would read about your problem.  He doesn't normally deal with Managed Payments so I don't know if there is anything he can do but I wanted him to know about it.

https://community.ebay.ca/t5/Weekly-Chat-Session/bd-p/23000000073

[byto253]

I read the chat and thanks for bringing it up.  The SIN request is no correct.

[femmefan1946]

@coldwintersport 

Normally, eBay would also accept alternate ID like a driver's license (which would be difficult since no one will let me drive) .

Were you asked for an alternative?

[byto253]

From the horse's mouth.  Below is a link from the government of Canada, and a few excerpts.  Several years ago I was in a position where we ran personal credit checks and we could not require SINs even for that - a SIN made it easier but was not needed to run the check.

https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/services/sin/reports/code-of-practice/section...

2.1 Key responsibilities of SIN holders

As a SIN holder, you have four key responsibilities to protect your SIN:

1. Never give out your SIN unless you are sure it is legally required or you are satisfied it is necessary.
   • You must provide your SIN to take part in some government programs and/or services. For example, the Canada Revenue Agency requires your SIN when you file your income tax, or when you apply for Employment Insurance (EI) or Canada Pension Plan (CPP)/ Retraite Québec benefits
   • In the private sector, you must provide your SIN to your employer for income tax and benefit purposes. You must also give it to financial institutions for accounts that pay interest
   • Except when required for government programs and services, it is your decision when to share your SIN information and with whom

------------

5. Who can ask for your SIN?  (underlining is my emphasis)

Although only specific government departments and programs are required to collect and use the SIN, there is no legislation that prevents private sector organizations from requesting it.

However, you do not have to provide your SIN to a private sector organization unless it is for a specific purpose linked to a government requirement, such as employment or income tax purposes. For example, an employer will collect an employee's SIN to provide them with Records of Employment and various year-end reporting slips, such as T4, for income tax purposes. Also, provincial or municipal agencies can use the SIN to report financial assistance payments. Financial institutions such as banks and trust companies that pay you interest or income are also required to ask for your SIN.

[onebadwolf]

eBay I believe is now adjusting their business model, in a manner similar to the companies that rent electric scooters. Those companies don't make most of their $ from selling time on electric scooters, they make it by selling you. Your information. They have your name, address, times of day you are active, thanks to the GPS tracker, they know what businesses you ride to, how long you are there, who you might ride/associate with. 

This information is worth much more than whatever they make renting scooters. Ride the scooter to your Dr. 2X a month? What if you go more often? Do you think that would be valuable to a life insurance company to know? Your choice of restaurant might raise your premiums as well. And then there is the marketing. They have your physical address. Your name. Your e-mail address.

And now, outdoing the scooter data miners, eBay wants your SIN #. Why do you think that might be?  eBay, has no lawful access to the Government of Canada's SIN database. They cannot verify your identity if they cannot access that database. 

So why do they want it? The answer lies in the mind numbing fine print. There is another entity that uses your SIN to identify you. The credit Bureau. And eBay, reserves the right, and by signing up, you consent to their conducting credit checks. 

Think that through for a minute. If you give them your SIN, they now have access to everything there is to know about you. A profile of you, with name, address, email address phone #, bank balances, loans outstanding, mortgages etc. As well, they have access to your sales, and purchases, and can cross reference all this information in ways that they have not even thought of. How many people watching commercials during the Superbowl are qualified to buy, and in the market for, a luxury automobile? One in 2000? 10,000? Through data mining, it was discovered about ten years ago, by a marketing company, that if you preferred chunky peanut butter, and owned a cat, you were 10 times more likely to buy a Volkswagen Jetta than someone who did not . Superbowl commercials are expensive. What do you think the name, address and phone number of someone 10 times more likely to buy your product or service, is worth?

eBay is making YOU the product. And charging you for the privilege of selling your information. Where has this sudden, urgent requirement for all your data come from? eBay, states they are just doing what is required of them under the "anti laundering" laws. So... What new laws have been passed? Anybody? They managed without all this data before, why the sudden obsession with compliance? Were they non compliant before? No, they were not. The UN has not "Deputized" eBay as the new global money laundering Marshal.  They certainly have NO right to your SIN, they don't even provide a plausible excuse as to why they need it. Your BANK barely has a legal right to request it, so what gives?

If you have a mortgage payment near due, a minimal balance in your account, and someone who is in significantly better financial shape than you files a dispute, whom do you think the rep will be instructed to rule in favor of? Who will put the most $ into eBay's pocket of course.

There is no new urgent reason for eBay to request all this info. They are counting on the majority of sellers giving into their demands out of fear, frustration, and lack of perceived options. It is a gamble on their part. A very good bet though, they put the thin edge of the wedge in a long time ago, and the algorithms show most people are blissfully ignorant, and will probably comply. Probability is defined as 51% or greater. I'll bet, they expect more like 90%.

And the decision you make, will not only affect you, but think about the ratio of buyers to sellers.  How long after the sellers comply, will they go after the untapped resource of the buyers? Already, there are companys that will provide you a rebate, if you complete your sale through them. Do you think they do that because they are philanthropists? They sell that information to marketing companys. For a great deal more that you receive as your rebate.

I'm done as a seller on eBay. I will not comply. I sympathize with those who give in, to an extent. I will not reward them for their decision though. Expect sales to go down, because even if 90% comply 10% wont. And although eBay will no longer have their revenue based on your sales, you will.

eBay I believe has been experimenting to see exactly how much people will tolerate. They have made things so convoluted, that for most sellers, the mere idea of trying a competitive service, if there was one, terrifies them. Myself, if facing a decision only between 2 evils, I'll choose the one I have not tried before.

[cumos55]

Link to ....

https://www.ebay.ca/help/selling/getting-paid/submitting-updating-information-managed-payments?id=47...

SIN is optional

More information about Managed Payments on eBay Canada is available on the ........

Help & Contact at the upper left corner of an eBay page  on eBay Canada

[onebadwolf]

"To cancel the order, I have to refund the buyer out of pocket, aside from the funds they already sent, as the MP program is holding these funds in escrow.  Pretty cool huh?"

And I wonder who collects the interest generated from all the "escrow" funds. And who exactly is the independent entity operating the "escrow"? Have you been provided with any statements about this?

"But, clearly in the e-mail it was written "We are unable to accept the document you provided because you have not provided your Social Insurance Number (SIN)." 

And eBay says it's optional.  As in you can just accept the loss. This might actually meet the legal definition of extortion. Withholding funds without a specific lawful excuse, gouging you to pay an additional amount to the customer as the one they arbitrarily helped themselves to, unless you comply with a request they have no lawful right to make. In the US, this would pretty clearly fall under the RICO statutes. 

"You don't have to pay us our monthly protection money, it's optional... But sometimes bad things happen to good people if you know what I mean? You could fall down some stairs, and break some bones.. Not something you would want a close family member to come across.. You hear what we're saying? 

I wonder if they are going to charge you a fee for all the effort they have expended trying to sort this out. eBay makes a point of mentioning that the reserve the right to do so. They are making you an offer, that you can't refuse. 

Optional. You're a funny guy Tyler.

[onebadwolf]

Optional. Until, as the OP reported it's mandatory if you don't want to be out the sale, and lose double by having to pay out the customer out of pocket. 

Of course ts claims to be optional. In the same way as some guy with a bat asking you for $20 as you leave the ATM. It's optional. Or else.

It's amazing to me, how supportive some people are of thugs. If I were a mugger, I'd want you on the jury.

[cumos55]

As Canadian sellers  we must read the information that is available on eBay Canada.

Managed Payments is different when presented on eBay.com...eBay US.

When I registered for Managed Payments on eBay Canada, I had all of the appropriate/correct  information  at the time of  registration.  Registration was very easy.

There was a small variation in how Managed Payment was set up for me...  That was adjusted  and everything is currently working very well for me.

I have been using Managed Payments since August 10, 2020

[nuvistors]

When I signed up for  Eastlink TV / Internet  they demanded my SIN before service could be provided.

[onebadwolf]

"When I signed up for  Eastlink TV / Internet  they demanded my SIN before service could be provided."

Did you explain to them that the Government of Canada states you should not do so? Or do you normally comply with unreasonable demands?

There is NO lawful access to the Government of Canada SIN database for private companies. Employers may include it, so that RevCan may calculate taxes, but no employer, or non government entity may use the database to verify a Canadians SIN. On average, 4 other people have the same SIN as you. The SIN is a 9 digit algorithm, with features that include verification, and correction. Change one digit, and a SIN is no longer valid, and it is possible to determine which digit was changed, and what it's value should be. With a little practice, and understanding of check sums, you can learn to calculate in your head, if a SIN is valid, or has had a digit changed. Always a hit at geek party's.

Also, the province, and year of birth are contained within the 9 digit SIN.  Credit card numbers use a similar type of  algorithm, called the Luhn algorithm. Issuing bank, and verification of the number, and account types (standard, corporate or high value etc.) are features credit cards have as well.

With a population of 38 million, they ran out of unique SIN numbers long ago.  Don't panic, they make sure that nobody has the same DOB, and SIN.   

A birth date is relatively easy to obtain. the match of your SIN to your name, and your DOB is quite difficult. Or, at least it should be. 

People who just hand out their SIN, are begging to be victims of identity theft. Now, maybe they feel guilt from a child hood trauma or whatever, and feel they need punishment, so who cares if they do or don't?

Well, with a valid SIN matched to a name, a member of some terrorist organization, like the Suicide Commandos of the Black September Faction, of the Canadian Model Airplane Association, could use it to operate bank accounts,  to channel funds for their activities, or obtain a passport under your ID to facilitate their operators moving across borders, internationally, engaging in all manner of terroristic activities, just to promote their agenda of removing the GST from balsa wood. You want to punish yourself, fine. The National Film Board has a lending library. No need to endanger the general public.

[rosscd57]

NEVER give out your SIN # - EVER. It is only to be used by the Feds. That was settled in the 1970's when employers wanted it. They all had to delete employee SINs from there records. How do I know I was in HR for General Electric at the time and was one who was tasked to get rid of them.

[recped]

---

@rosscd57 wrote:

NEVER give out your SIN # - EVER. It is only to be used by the Feds. That was settled in the 1970's when employers wanted it. They all had to delete employee SINs from there records. How do I know I was in HR for General Electric at the time and was one who was tasked to get rid of them.

---

Sorry but you are wrong!

Employers must request and require your SIN, how else would they be able to complete tax reporting without it?

The very first line of "who can ask for your SIN" list on this page:

https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/programs/sin/protect.html#a2

1 - EMPLOYER!

[onebadwolf]

So it is your position that eBay is in fact an employer? Not too sure that eBay would agree with your assertion.  Or do you receive a T4 for your work here on the forum? I never knew Fanboi was recognized as an occupation. There sure is a wealth of knowledge to be gained here.

[recped]

---

@onebadwolf wrote:

So it is your position that eBay is in fact an employer? Not too sure that eBay would agree with your assertion.  Or do you receive a T4 for your work here on the forum? I never knew Fanboi was recognized as an occupation. There sure is a wealth of knowledge to be gained here.

---

Of course not! Perhaps you should review my post. Neither post even mentioned eBay or Managed Payments!

The poster I replied to was claiming that employers were not allowed to require a SIN.

[onebadwolf]

"The poster I replied to was claiming that employers were not allowed to require a SIN."

Allowed to request is different than allowed to require. But since you apparently agree that eBay is not an employer, why should eBay require, or request SIN numbers? What lawful use of that information could there be?

There is no access to the SIN database for private corporations to compare a provided SIN with, and the Canadian government instructs that it should NOT be provided.

Or do you think eBay is somehow above the Canadian government? 

[cumos55]

The SIN is a  nine digit number......   The SIN is unique for every Canadian.

With nine digits  there is a possibility of 999,999,999   numbers available.

No two Canadians have the same SIN.

The SIN is optional for Managed Payments....    It appears that eBay is saying that the option is that the SIN is required for Managed Payments under speciric situations.

The SIN is most likely required if a seller  sells more than $20,000 value on eBay each year.  These sellers are reported to the Canada Revenue Agency where a SIN would make it very easy to identify the seller.