eBay

rio1953 · ‎10-25-2016

Finally I spoke to the buyer, who returned the item without contacting me.

I asked The reason of the return and the answer was she didn't wanted it anymore.

Right way she asked if I would refund the return shipping with the other costs.

I advised her to go through the proper process with ebay and just mark down that she had changed her mind and take it from there.

anyway not only she didn't go through ebay but put the dispute through PayPal as "item not as described".

i am fuming......what a deceiving person.....she knows very well that she got exactly what she had payed for.

She just changed her mind or bought from someone else.

One question.....why she has not gone through eBay? And chosen PayPal?.....and what can I do at this point? Will I still get my fees back? All answers and help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks

pjcdn2005 · ‎10-25-2016

Since she used not as described its probably better this was done through PayPal. eBay requires a seller to pay nad return shipping costs, PP requires the buyer pay them although in this case they were already paid for by e buyer so I guess it doesn't really matter. Since it is a nad you will have to refund original shipping costs.

You will get your fees back if you refund without the claim being escalated but you might have to phone eBay to get it done. I'm not sure if it is a automatic with a PP claim now.

thestuffofchris · ‎10-25-2016

I'm not well versed in the returns process but if the buyer sent a message that they returned it because they didn't want it anymore (Buyer Remorse) BEFORE filing the Item Not As Described claim, can't that be used as a form of appeal against the INAD claim?

tobyshitzu · ‎10-25-2016

@thestuffofchris wrote:
I'm not well versed in the returns process but if the buyer sent a message that they returned it because they didn't want it anymore (Buyer Remorse) BEFORE filing the Item Not As Described claim, can't that be used as a form of appeal against the INAD claim?

Yes if it was through ebay and you were fighting accepting the return because you have "no returns"

In this case I don't see where the issue is. Seller's terms are "3 day money back, buyer pays return shipping", which is what will end up happenning (dont know about the 3 days, but financially it will). Buyer doesn't need a reason to return. Resolved "SNAD" cases don't count for anything so it effectively doesn't matter they used that. Pretty certain op will have to call ebay to get the fees refunded. Who knows why they did it through paypal instead of ebay, its not as user frrendly as it coud be with both of them seperately promoting to file disputes

i.am.vivian · ‎10-25-2016

@rio1953 wrote:

One question.....why she has not gone through eBay? And chosen PayPal?.....and what can I do at this point? Will I still get my fees back? All answers and help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks

That's four questions. 🙂 Like pjcdn says in this case it really is to your advantage that the buyer chose PayPal for the claim instead of eBay. On a Not As Described case eBay wants sellers to pay the return shipping as well as a full refund. A seller can fight that, but its a really tough go. No matter how the buyer did it there was always the chance they would pick NAD as the reason, maybe just to make sure they got a refund.

At this point you can try to call PP if you have emails saying she just changed her mind and argue that you shouldn't have to refund the shipping too but I don't think that ever works. I just don't want to discourage you is all. You will get your fees back but as toby says you will likely have to make phone calls to do it.

My concern about your buyer is this: Could that person have chosen PayPal for the return claim in order to try to get back the full return shipping cost through the PP "Return Shipping Refund Service"?

https://www.paypal.com/ca/webapps/mpp/returnshipping/terms-and-conditions

I would like to hear what the others think about that. It looks to me like PP will cover the costs but I find that hard to believe. If your buyer is online savvy, then its possible they already know that an eBay claim can be fought and won by the seller but it looks like they will get back everything with this new "Shipping Refund" thing.

momcqueen · ‎10-25-2016

If the case was opened within paypal, then paypal will only accept correspondence done via the Paypal dispute and/or escalation process* as evidence the buyer has opened a false claim like yours. I would expect your buyer knows this which is the reason she didn't open it via ebay. Because if she did, you'd have proof of the attempted fraud.

Assuming the correspondence was done via ebay messages and not regular email.

You can only try to 'trick' her into admitting a second time via the Paypal Case correspondence function what she has already admit to you elsewhere. I don't even like using the word 'trick' here in relation to a discussion with a buyer and a return because it sounds sneaky and sleazy but the buyer is attempting trickery with you so it seems justified in this instance. See if you can lure her into a reaction by copying and pasting the correspondence to the dispute centre that you received from her before and asking for an explanation or something.

Oh, and be certain to BLOCK this buyer. And Report. You'll be doing the rest of us a favour.

*I will cite my own experience in January of this year as the reason I know this to be the case. Buyer left feedback on ebay complaining the item was 'received good but late' and then two days later opened an Item Not Received case via Paypal. Paypal refunded the buyer out of courtesy and didn't hold it against me (or take the funds from my account) but I was warned that only a comment in Paypal specifically can be used as evidence (ebay feedback doesn't count) in a Paypal dispute. But because I am a seller who has never caused them trouble before, they didn't disbelieve me. Plus feedback is a matter of public record.

tobyshitzu · ‎10-25-2016

Fraud? Seller has the item. Seller offers to take returns. The only thing slightly off is the buyer used snad as the reason (after seller told them to open a case on ebay). They could still return it if they said they don't want it, being that is what the seller's listings offer without restriction. If they openned a return request on ebay, it would end up exactly as it has.

momcqueen · ‎10-25-2016

The fraudulent aspect is the buyer's claim that it's a SNAD return as opposed to Remorse which she admit earlier. So that she gets her shipping cost (both ways) refunded. That's fraud. The buyer isn't entitled to shipping back. Either way.

tobyshitzu · ‎10-25-2016

Buyer does not get shipping for the return refunded on a snad through paypal

"You may be asked to return the item to the seller to be eligible for a refund. You would be responsible for return shipping costs and would be required to use a shipping service that can be tracked online."

And the seller doesn't have any terms for not refunding shipping or having restocking fee on a return.

So effectively it has made no difference for why the buyer is returning. Filed a "change mind" return request on ebay, same thing. Seller just responds to the buyers message agreeing to retrun with no case open, same thing. Not the ideal way for the buyer to retunr, but it didn't change anything

momcqueen · ‎10-25-2016

If the Return was opened through ebay, the seller doesn't need to specify Return shipping or the refund of original shipping because ebay's policies take over. Original shipping not eligible for refund on a Remorse Return. Nor is Return postage unless the seller offers it.

I agree the Paypal Return claim means the buyer is still responsible for return shipping unless they find some way to schmzoozle it* from paypal itself. I was offering my opinion as to the reason the buyer skipped opening their claim on ebay and went to paypal instead. I suspect the buyer in this case knows enough to try and 'game' the system but not quite as much as he or she thinks they do.

*See the link above for Paypal Return Service.

rio1953 · ‎10-25-2016

I don't have any communication in form of emails from the buyer.

She never contacted me. Only returned the item.

I wrote 2 emails to her asking to contact me, to no avail.

The only time we communicated was through the phone where she admitted she didn't want it anymore.

Now do I refund and close the dispute in PP first and then call eBay to get the fee back? Or do the other way around?

To block her can I do it right now or do I have to wait until this is resolved?

This was a first time buyer......and will the last time she buys something from me.

momcqueen · ‎10-25-2016

Phone? That's unusual. Did you call her or the other way around?

I'm afraid I can't speak to the timing of PayPal refund before or after eBay Final Value Fee request. I just don't know.

You can block the buyer at any point, I don't think it should make a difference.

i.am.vivian · ‎10-26-2016

@rio1953 wrote:
The only time we communicated was through the phone where she admitted she didn't want it anymore.
Now do I refund and close the dispute in PP first and then call eBay to get the fee back? Or do the other way around?
To block her can I do it right now or do I have to wait until this is resolved?
This was a first time buyer......and will the last time she buys something from me.

I can't help thinking this buyer is not as new as all that, just a new USER ID. This whole thing gives me the willies.

Since you will HAVE TO refund anyway you may as well do it. If you are given the option of refunding just the item price, if it were me I would call PayPal and calmly explain that the buyer returned the item good as new but with no contact at all. Point out that all your emails went ignored and only when you phoned did the buyer admit to having a change of heart. Emphasize that it is not a Not as Described case. If it were me, I would want to see if I could just refund the item price only. It is not right that you should have to pay your buyers to try out your items. I would also tell PayPal that the buyer looked to be taking advantage of buyer protection by filing a false NAD claim and not a remorse return.

Most likely PayPal will tell you tough luck but hopefully they will do it in a nice way. You will probably have to refund the item price plus original shipping but that's no reason not to try to wiggle out of it first.

I am more worried about exactly who pays the shipping in

https://www.paypal.com/ca/webapps/mpp/returnshipping/terms-and-conditions

because I can't imagine a big company giving away money like this. Maybe my tired old eyes just didn't read it right.

momcqueen · ‎10-26-2016

I have to agree with Vivian. Something about this seems odd; if I was brand-new to buying on eBay and wanted to return my first-ever purchase for any reason, I'd need hand-holding to do it. Can a guest checkout go through PayPal or is it credit card only?

While I haven't read through with a fine-tooth comb all the Terms and Conditiond of the PayPal Return program, I will suggest that nothing is left vague by accident. Maybe PayPal wants to reserve the right to decide whether they or the seller in question funds that Return shipping. As buyer protection goes, PayPal must see it's a real weakness that a buyer has to pay to return a seller error when that truly does happen.

Sometimes, to be nice, PayPal will throw money at a case to make a party happy but that case is judged on its individual merit. As well as the histories of the parties in question. So....

It's hard to know what's really at play here. I could be looking for signs of trouble where none actually exist. Making a fuss about nothing. I do freely admit that has happened once or twice.

i.am.vivian · ‎10-26-2016

Oh totally! I remember when I was new to eBay. lol! That's why I can't believe this buyer, savvy as all that, is truly new.

A guest can pay with just a CC or with a PP acc if they have one. This buyer obviously does because without one they would not be able to open a PP claim.

@mjwl2006 wrote:
While I haven't read through with a fine-tooth comb all the Terms and Conditions of the PayPal Return program, I will suggest that nothing is left vague by accident. Maybe PayPal wants to reserve the right to decide whether they or the seller in question funds that Return shipping.

Sometimes, to be nice, PayPal will throw money at a case to make a party happy but that case is judged on its individual merit. As well as the histories of the parties in question. So....

Spot on. And that is what concerns me. It sounds like PP is offering to pay rtn shipping to unhappy buyers, but with millions and millions of users, and it does not say you only get to do it ONCE, that could turn into millions upon millions of dollars in PayPal-sponsored return fees. That just can't be right, not when PP is so tight about every teensy fee.

I thought maybe some of the younger eyeballs on here might be better equipped to sift through all the Rah!Rah!Join up Now!Yah!Do-it-now!Yah!WhoooHoo! hype that goes with it and see what, if anything, is truly hidden behind the veil.

momcqueen · ‎10-26-2016

It seems like the program is for buyers, so there's nothing in the Terms and Conditions for sellers at all. There is, however, an email address to which we could direct our questions. It would be worth investigating.

pjcdn2005 · ‎10-26-2016

That PP return shipping program has nothing to do with sellers so won't affect the op in any way. If the buyer does belong to that return program they didn't need to open the claim through PP....the program is for any return, not just nad returns.

pjcdn2005 · ‎10-26-2016

@i.am.vivian wrote:
Oh totally! I remember when I was new to eBay. lol! That's why I can't believe this buyer, savvy as all that, is truly new.

A guest can pay with just a CC or with a PP acc if they have one. This buyer obviously does because without one they would not be able to open a PP claim.

@mjwl2006 wrote:
While I haven't read through with a fine-tooth comb all the Terms and Conditions of the PayPal Return program, I will suggest that nothing is left vague by accident. Maybe PayPal wants to reserve the right to decide whether they or the seller in question funds that Return shipping.
Sometimes, to be nice, PayPal will throw money at a case to make a party happy but that case is judged on its individual merit. As well as the histories of the parties in question. So....
Spot on. And that is what concerns me. It sounds like PP is offering to pay rtn shipping to unhappy buyers, but with millions and millions of users, and it does not say you only get to do it ONCE, that could turn into millions upon millions of dollars in PayPal-sponsored return fees. That just can't be right, not when PP is so tight about every teensy fee.
I thought maybe some of the younger eyeballs on here might be better equipped to sift through all the Rah!Rah!Join up Now!Yah!Do-it-now!Yah!WhoooHoo! hype that goes with it and see what, if anything, is truly hidden behind the veil.