eBay

kays_place · ‎04-28-2014

I must be "Defective" as I don't understand the new "Defect" system. As of the past three months my DSR's are all 5's and I have 100% Feedback. From what I see as of August 2oth I will be Above Standard and lose my Top Rated Status - under Global not U.S.

An item sold last week but it was broken in my recent move (same day as sale) so I communicated withe the buyer, he was very understanding and I refunded his payment. My question is will that be a "Defect"? I am leery as to ask for a cancellation as I am sure that would be a "Defect". If I cancel any listing (with no bids) is that also a "Defect"?

It seems latley no matter what you do it is not enough. Any clarification on this would be most appreciated.

rose-dee · ‎04-28-2014

Hi there - I'm hoping I might be able to help. I spent 3 or 4 days pouring over the new rules and asking questions at the weekly open board with eBay staff, and I think I've got a handle on most of it. Still, you're absolutely right -- it isn't simple.

As an aside, I'm wondering why you would lose your Global TRS but not your US TRS? You're located in Canada, right? I would think it's a lot easier for a Canadian to hang on to the Global TRS because it takes all sales into account, not just US, and it doesn't require you to use tracking. If you have no negative or neutral FB, then is it your DSRs that are the problem? It doesn't appear to be.

At any rate, to answer your specific question, we were told by one of the eBay staffers that a transaction should be cancelled if a full refund has been provided. I'm not sure I can place 100% confidence in that statement, but that is what he said. I assume you refunded before a case was opened by the buyer? If you had an open case, it would have been counted as a defect, but a transaction will only count once toward your defect rate, so if you happen to do something else in that transaction that also causes a defect (except for an unresolved INR/INAD case), it can't get any worse. Small comfort, eh?

There is really still in my mind some confusion (or I should say lack of clarity) in eBay's rules around cancellations. It was stated by the eBay staffer that, of the list of reasons that pop up when you cancel a transaction, only "I ran out of stock" and "I sold the item to another buyer" will count as defects. Still, it's safest to ask the buyer to send a message (through eBay Messages) asking the seller to cancel -- apparently if that is "on record", the seller will not get a defect.

Now in your case, if you've already refunded the buyer in full, I suppose it depends on how co-operative and happy the buyer is. If you don't get an actual message from the buyer asking for the cancellation (and most probably wouldn't if they've been refunded), you have two choices:

1) Either take the eBay staffer's advice and initiate the cancellation process using the appropriate option from the pop-up list (is the buyer returning the item, or haven't you sent it yet?).

However, I would always inform the buyer ahead of time about what was going to happen -- many buyers have never encountered cancellations before. They need to understand they'll receive a message from eBay and that they should accept the cancellation as soon as possible. The way I would put it in this situation would be "I'll be sending you a cancellation request so that eBay will know the transaction has been reversed due to the refund. Please choose the "accept" option when you get that message, so I can close off the transaction".

2) Just leave the transaction as it is, to die on the vine, so to speak. You won't get your FVF's back of course, but you can probably relist the item as a new listing. It will disappear completely I believe, in 60 days (or possibly 90, I'm not certain). At any rate, you won't risk a defect, unless of course the buyer decides for some reason to leave neg/neutral FB or low DSRs.

Personally, I think eBay is going to need to do some re-thinking and fine-tuning of these rules to make them more consistent and logical, but we're stuck with them for the time being. Best of luck!!

vickyg* · ‎04-28-2014

Hi. Don't Cancel the transaction. Just eat the FVF. If a seller cancels a transaction for any reason, other than at the Buyers Request,

IT IS A DEFECT.

Vicky

pjcdn2005 · ‎04-29-2014

Cancelling a listing is not a defect.

When you give a refund you will receive a defect unless you also cancel the transaction showing that the transaction is being cancelled at the request of the buyer. I'm not certain what happens if you choose 'other' as a cancellation choice.

I did receive a defect from a refund even though I did not ask for a cancellation so just 'eating the fees' doesn't do any good. Ebay will assume that any full refund (not partial) is a seller cancelled transaction.

thebarterersdog · ‎04-29-2014

This absolutely makes no sense. If I am packing something sold and for whatever reasons, say I drop the item and because of my clumsiness, it breaks, I'm not going to ship it that way but apologize, offer a credit and absolutely immediately refund. Sometimes, one of our staff will break an item, it happens, or we sold it in a previous transaction but it was re-listed for some bizarre reason and purchased again. Why on earth would any of this be considered a DEFECT? In a real time store, things happen when you are constantly moving merchandise around or when you have multiple sales people. Of course, you are very careful and try never to do any of the aforementioned, but it happens. That is when you go and fix the problem by doing whatever it takes, either with a credit, sending them something "special", apologizing for your mistake, that and after an immediate refund is provided without any complications. I think the term "defect" is the product of interpretation of another culture and should be re-examined and replaced with a different system. "Defect" is insulting and belongs in the category of outdated terms like "crippled" or "retard'-- terms I might add families like ours have advocated successfully legally for years to get revamped in educational and governing systems of this country. I am not about to change a thing in the way we do business and my feedback and customers returning to buy more items speaks for itself. It's lame to ask a customer, after it's clear the transaction is over, adding insult to injury to cancel the transaction because of a "wording" issue or ridiculous policy implementation. Well duh, of course it's been cancelled and confirmed cancelled with the refund. To force them go that extra mile which, trust me, will appear lame and a waste of time, will drive customers away... not because they are unhappy with the seller, but with yet more stupid rules created by eBay executive. Is that what this is about? A new way of phasing out the "little seller?" Do I need to remind eBay that good business IS all business, whether big or small... To what end does such policy positively create? None. I resent the implications of the wording used in the new policies. We make a nice tidy sum for eBay with our daily sales and from what I can see, this will continue as is and for as long as things are left... as is. The moment eBay starts screwing around with things, they're just going to end up "shooting themselves in the foot to spite their face" ... as the old saying goes...

Janet and Paul

mr.elmwood · ‎04-29-2014

@pjcdn2005 wrote:
Cancelling a listing is not a defect.

When you give a refund you will receive a defect unless you also cancel the transaction showing that the transaction is being cancelled at the request of the buyer. I'm not certain what happens if you choose 'other' as a cancellation choice.

I did receive a defect from a refund even though I did not ask for a cancellation so just 'eating the fees' doesn't do any good. Ebay will assume that any full refund (not partial) is a seller cancelled transaction.

Pretty much my understanding, particularly the last part. They want sellers to be in stock will sellable merchandise. A one sided cancellation means, to them, the seller has not done their job.

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pjcdn2005 · ‎04-29-2014

@mr.elmwood wrote:
@pjcdn2005 wrote:
Cancelling a listing is not a defect.

When you give a refund you will receive a defect unless you also cancel the transaction showing that the transaction is being cancelled at the request of the buyer. I'm not certain what happens if you choose 'other' as a cancellation choice.

I did receive a defect from a refund even though I did not ask for a cancellation so just 'eating the fees' doesn't do any good. Ebay will assume that any full refund (not partial) is a seller cancelled transaction.
Pretty much my understanding, particularly the last part. They want sellers to be in stock will sellable merchandise. A one sided cancellation means, to them, the seller has not done their job.

Yes, to ebay..one size fits all. The reason I cancelled is that a blocked bidder started a new id so that they could purchase one of my items. I did not ask for a cancellation as I thought that would just upset the buyer even more so I paid fvf and received a defect. Perhaps I can phone and straighten it out although it is annoying that I have to do so.

rose-dee · ‎04-29-2014

@mr.elmwood wrote:
They want sellers to be in stock will sellable merchandise. A one sided cancellation means, to them, the seller has not done their job.

This is probably the impetus behind these new rules, but unfortunately I didn't find the eBay staff's responses to our questions at the Wed. open discussions either consistent or clear.

For example, here's what Raphael said when 'pj' asked whether all transactions that are fully refunded are now going to be a defect unless cancelled at the buyer's request. Read the statement below carefully. That word "might" is the problem I have with it. What does that mean? Does it mean "under certain circumstances", or "at eBay's discretion", or "I'm really not sure"?

"1. Just issuing a full refund to a buyer without documenting the reason via a cancellation request might put you at rick of getting a defect for that transaction. I was just informed as ell that a buyer asking for a cancellation via eBay messages, that can also be used as proof that the cancellation was not initiated by the seller."

Interestingly, the week before, he had stated categorically that eBay never monitors seller-buyer email communications.

And here's another prevarication (when asked whether a defect would result if a seller chooses "Other" as the reason for the cancellation:

"2. Other as a reason should not be a problem."

OK, "shouldn't be a problem". What does that mean? That it might be a problem in some instances? Or that he really wasn't sure? I wish he had simply said: "If you choose "Other" as the reason, you will not get a defect if the buyer accepts the cancellation".

In the OP's situation, having a broken item and being unable to complete the transaction, then providing a full refund, it seems like "Other" would be the reasonable choice. Remember, Raphael was completely unequivocal about the only 2 options that would trigger a defect when I asked him about it on April 16th -- either "I ran out of stock" or "I sold the item to another buyer". These do make sense in light of eBay's stated purposes with these rules.

So what do we sellers rely on? I really don't know anymore, except that, as I said in my earlier post, it would be prudent to make sure you keep a refunded buyer on side and aware that a refunded transaction will be going through the cancellation process. And just cross your fingers that the buyer doesn't get irritated and either refuse the cancellation, or leave neutral/negative FB after all is said and done. In other words, a defect in the end, for all your trouble. Oh sigh.

My big problem with these new rules is that they are overly-layered and complicated, and that some critical aspects are half-baked. I think there's a lot of truth in the feeling many of us are getting that eBay wants to weed out a lot of its smaller, "boutique" sellers. It's basically forcing us to treat selling on this site as a numbers game to avoid defects, rather than focusing first and foremost on great service to our buyers.

mr.elmwood · ‎04-29-2014

Pardon, but, up until now, I thought that all cancellation requests had to be done by the seller? Plus? I get eBay message from buyers requesting return for refund. No cases opened.

the last three refunds were for buyers blatantly buying the wrong thing and then begging to return for refund. Nothing to do with me.

I am adverse to requesting cancellation as I fear the rebuttal neg of "pound sand loser". So, I let sleeping dogs lie.

Now? Now because the buyer deliberately buys the wrong thing and I graciously refund, I am in the wrong?

I know darn well I cannot be the only decent seller sitting in this conundrum. Buyer screws up, requests my help, the way we all want them to do, and I get sanctioned?

So, now, if I am reading the shifting sands correctly, we have to force the buyer to open a case, so we can demand they request a cancellation, so we can refund, to not get a neg, but, opened cases are a defect and a strike against us?

So, how does a customer request a refund for their error?

Remind me to try to ask this on Wed.

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rose-dee · ‎04-29-2014

Mr. E., this is why I'm just so flabbergasted at these new rules. They are complicated, and depend on a number of factors in each instance. As a result, a lot of sellers will innocently make the wrong decision and end up with a whole stack of defects, despite every effort to provide great service and make happy buyers.

Here is what I currently understand about cancellations, from all my recent pouring over the rules and asking questions (and please, if anyone knows for certain that any of this is wrong, feel free to correct me!) --

1) All cancellations have to be processed by the seller, in other words, a buyer can't initiate the eBay cancellation process. But what eBay is now saying is that you won't get a defect as long as the buyer asks you cancel (or as long as you don't indicate as the cancellation reason "I ran out of stock" and "I sold the item to another buyer", which will both automatically result in a defect . Now, there is some confusion about the option "Other", as I and 'pj' have said. Unfortunately, Raphael's statement that it should not be a problem doesn't categorically say it won't be a problem -- it's not a complete assurance.

2) So, if your buyer accidentally buys the wrong thing, and you graciously refund, you should also cancel the transaction to avoid a defect (although as I said above, eBay saying it "might" result in a defect if you don't cancel doesn't tell me it always will result in a defect). You may be right about the "pound sand" attitude leading to a neutral or neg, in which case you're hooped anyway.

My own strategy will be to explain to the buyer (very nicely) at the time I make the refund that eBay says the transaction needs to be cancelled to "close off the transaction", and that I'll be sending the cancellation request and would appreciate the buyer accepting the cancellation so that it won't remain an open-ended transaction. For the time being, I'll always choose one of the options other than the two I mentioned above, and I'm going to avoid the "Other" option just in case Raphael is wrong.

3) You don't have to force the buyer to open a case in order to do a cancellation -- just remember (according to Raphael) that you'll be in a better position if there is any question about the cancellation if you get the buyer to make the "ask" via eBay messages. Sometimes obviously this won't be practical or advisable -- you might irritate some people by asking them to ask you to ask them to cancel, and end up with a neutral or neg FB anyway (stupid, but that's what it boils down to).

4) I find that a lot of buyers who just make an honest mistake in buying the wrong thing don't realize there is a cancellation process, so even though they might contact me, they often don't know how to get out of the transaction. By communicating immediately and clearly that you will refund them and will send the cancellation request to them, you'll probably make a relieved, if not happy customer, who is unlikely to leave neg/neutral FB -- or any FB at all, which is probably best!

5) If we can believe Raphael, a full refund without cancelling will now result in a defect, as 'pj' found out.

That's why I say that whenever I now have this situation (and it happens to every seller, I'm sure), if the buyer isn't experienced enough to ask me to initiate the cancellation, I'm going to make sure I explain the cancellation process as part of the communication when I refund the buyer's money, so that the buyer sees it as a normal end point of the whole transaction.

Here's another scenario (which happened to me recently) -- a newbie buyer purchased an item, then didn't pay for several days, and didn't communicate or respond to my "friendly reminder". I had a feeling she might not realize that cancellations were possible on eBay. So, rather than open a UID, I messaged her to explain the cancellation process, and asked if she'd like me to do that. Her reply was "Yes, please cancel". That -- according to Raphael -- together with choosing the correct option from the cancellation reasons, is all it should take to support a seller if there is any question after the fact as to whether a cancellation was seller-initiated (for the 2 reasons noted above, which are, after all, the seller's fault).

I think there's a real problem with eBay's designation "seller-initiated cancellation", which causes confusion where the new rules are concerned. All cancellations are seller-initiated. What they should have said is that only cancellations initiated because the seller made an error will create defects.

My question is: what prevents a seller from choosing "Other" to get around the two defect-producing reasons, especially if the buyer is fairly inexperienced? For example, a seller who runs out of stock may choose "Other", and if the buyer accepts the cancellation, the seller is defect-free. This isn't fair to honest sellers. I guess a few badly-behaved sellers will get through the "Other" loophole until eBay does something about it.

Bottom line, IMHO, this whole concept is a half-baked, overly complicated muddle.

rose-dee · ‎05-01-2014

To follow up on the issues raised in this discussion, I see that Raphael told the OP that her situation would result in a defect (as she described it). Presumably this would be so because the OP still wouldn't be able to avoid a defect even if she cancelled, as the reason would be basically "I ran out of stock" (one of the defect-generators).

However, what he didn't say is whether it would still be a defect if she had been able to get the buyer to happily agree to a cancellation if the OP used the option "Other".

It looks as if eBay is judging these situations on a very narrow basis -- a prompt, full refund to a customer is no longer good service, even in situations where the buyer goes away happy!!

I asked about the "Other" option, and whether it would never generate a defect, or if so, under what circumstances. Here is the reply:

"As you probably know, we can never say never

Choosing "Other" in itself wouldn't create a defect on that transaction. Best approach is to have a clear and detailed conversation with the buyer vie the eBay Messages, so that if you do end up with a defect, eBay CS can review the case and overturn it if applicable."

Well, what I read into all of this is that sellers are going to be penalized even in circumstances where a refund or cancellation may be required due to matters beyond a seller's direct control, even if the seller acts immediately and the buyer is completely satisfied. Ughhh.

recped · ‎05-01-2014

Buyers who have their order cancelled because the seller is out of stock don't go away "happy".

They might not be screaming mad but they are definitely not happy. As a buyer (anywhere not just eBay) selling me something you don't actually have is one of the most annoying things a merchant can do.

If this happens to me I might tell the seller "hey no problem" but the truth is that I'm not happy at all. If this started happening on a regular basis I would be looking elsewhere to do my shopping.

When a seller screws up I'm not lying for them so they can avoid a defect. I wonder how many sellers who would try to get a buyer to lie about a cancellation would freak out if a buyer asked them to under declare on a customs form.

I often read on the boards "a buyer who asks you to lie on a customs form can't be trusted" but apparently asking a buyer to lie for the benefit of a seller is ok.

"What else could I do? I had no trade so I became a peddler" - Lazarus Greenberg 1915
- answering Trolls is voluntary, my policy is not to participate.

rose-dee · ‎05-02-2014

Well, my main problem with the defect system is that it doesn't provide much leeway for an honest mistake that is immediately and cheerfully rectified by a seller, where a buyer feels he's been well treated despite being initially disappointed.

Exactly that has, incidentally, happened to me as a buyer. That sort of service gives me the reassurance to come back and buy from such a seller again. In my mind, it's the highest litmus test of a truly outstanding seller -- one who will admit an error and immediately take steps to correct it, and may even go beyond the merely necessary.

It's not a question of asking buyers to lie. It's a question of expecting that buyers can be understanding about an inadvertent error and be pleased with how the seller has dealt with them in unusual circumstances. Although it's clearly futile to say so, I believe eBay should allow sellers to "make good" on their own terms in such circumstances. I'm obviously not referring to sellers who run out of stock, and then blow off buyers with a refund and a perfunctory apology. That's bad business anywhere.

My view of it is this: If (heaven forbid) I were to make an inadvertent mistake and be unable to send a buyer the item purchased (say, it got damaged or broken prior to shipping), I would not only immediately refund their money with a clear explanation, but also provide some additional compensation -- a similar item for free perhaps, in addition to a voucher for a free future purchase.

This has in fact happened to me (only once, thank goodness). The buyer was impressed enough by the treatment she got that she became a repeat customer, and even ended up subscribing to my store newsletter.

So I think it is possible to distinguish between sloppy service that will drive buyers away, and outstanding service in situations that are inadvertent or beyond the seller's control. The latter can still make a happy customer who will return, not in spite of the service, but because of it. I do believe that most reasonable people understand that accidents and mistakes can happen; it's how the seller handles it that matters. Unfortunately, that's not what eBay thinks.

In such a situation, I still maintain I'd ask the buyer if they would agree to cancel the transaction (after the refund had been made). If they indicated they would agree, then I'd send the cancellation request, and I'd probably use "Other" as the reason. I don't think that qualifies as asking a buyer to lie. And I certainly can't see it being compared to the illegality of a buyer asking a seller to falsify a customs form.

I recently took a look at the FB of a major eBay seller, out of curiosity. It seems the bulk of their negative FB is for items they simply didn't have after buyers purchased, over and over again. Yes, I agree, that sort of behaviour is inexcusable and will drive people away from eBay. The seller -- ToysRus. I wonder how much leeway eBay gives them.