eBay

thebarterersdog · ‎04-05-2014

I find it very interesting when you get a buyer *itching to you about an order that for some reason they say arrived damaged. So you immediately apologize profusely and inform them to ship the items back to you and you absolutely will refund them the entire transaction. You say this in every way possible, except in a foreign language over and over and over in response to the buyer's messages. This is how eBay policy dictates you to proceed as a seller. Refund, refund, refund...

Then the messages start. In the messages, there's a threat that if I don't pay for return shipping, the buyer will file a claim against me. I'm called a real piece of work, unprofessional and irresponsible and basically told off. I again reiterate that I am very, very happy to refund entire transaction but need the goods in order to file a claim with post office.

Again the messages. Then the claim is filed when the buyer gets nowhere. I am suddenly told by the buyer that they contacted eBay who apparently informed her that it is my responsibility to pay for return shipping. This is not policy so I call eBay to check if I missed something. Nope, I'm told the buyer must pay for return shipping. I ask, "how do I know that if another rep is contacted, that they will follow the same rule and inform the buyer of this procedure." I'm reassured that all reps know this, so let her file a claim and then she'll be told the same thing. I share this information with buyer who again proceeds with messages. I report the buyer. Buyer leaves bad feedback without claim being resolved. I respond to feedback factually and professionally. Buyer responds to my feedback saying I deserve feedback. Okay, no problem, I'll deal with it. I contact eBay. Wow, how terrible, I'm told... difficult buyer... blah, blah... report buyer... blah, blah.... She will be told same thing... yada yada... Okay, I figure this is over.

I believe I'm doing what I am suppose to. Willing to provide full refund, buyer is to return damaged goods so I can file claim with Port office. Buyer lies in claim saying she will be out everything and how this is unfair. I respond, no, no... we are very willing (again) to provide full refund. Send damaged items back. Buyer claims unfair practices, I should be held accountable because post office damaged goods, bad packaging... blah, blah. I tell buyer that she will get her money back for damaged items and initial shipping, what's the problem. Again, Buyer adamantly refuses saying I should pay for all... I complain about Feedback, nothing is done.

Buyer escalates claim, eBay investigates, and low and behold, they state they side with buyer BUT in order for buyer to get refund, she must send back items with tracking (extra cost) in order for me to refund her.... DUH? Did I not say that? Did I not explain this rule? Did I not follow policy? Did I not try my best (I might have failed) at keeping my cool, but hey, this buyer is ..... Well, now I'm informed that this case will be held against me because, and I quote, "eBay sided in favor of the buyer"... Yet, this is exactly the same **bleep** I told the buyer, which is very evident in all my messages... So she was told the same exact thing by eBay which is redundant because now instead of just sending it to me, she has to send it with tracking at an extra cost. Yet, I'm being punished for doing and saying the exact same thing that eBay has. How can I help that the Buyer is ... I can't control her...

This is the second time this has happened. Could this be a loop hole? Why should a seller be penalized for doing and saying exactly the same thing Ebay does and says just because the buyer escalated the claim to hear it, but because of the escalation which I cannot control at all, especially with THIS kind buyer, my ratings are now damaged. Can we say STUPID!?

If evidence is provided in writing to show that the seller has followed all protocol and complied with all rules regardless if the claim is escalated or not, shouldn't the seller be supported. If I say refund and then ebay says refund how is this my fault? If I quote an eBay rule, and then eBay quotes the exact same rule, why am I held as the wrong one. And I clearly indicated that shipping was her responsibility and guess what, so did eBay... Hello? Because the buyer is simply being an *itch? It's my fault she woke up on the wrong side of the computer?

How is this not a buyer using the system in a wrongful manner? How is this not feedback extortion. It's pretty obvious that the buyer used every method at her disposal to extort the return shipping from me... If it wasn't for me quoting the policy about return shipping to eBay, I doubt they would have agreed with me on that . I have called, and have been patronized and sympathized with and passed around, and poo pooed... <sigh>

I can't wait for our own website to be finished....

Janet and Paul

rose-dee · ‎04-05-2014

I don't want to condone the buyer's nasty behaviour, but is this the $9.99 jewellery item on which you received the negative FB?

Was the buyer correct about poor wrapping, or do you suspect the item got really badly mishandled by the P.O. somewhere along the line?

Sometimes in selling (whether through eBay or elsewhere) it's necessary to weigh the repercussions against the loss, and give the whole situation a cold-headed calculation that will best minimize those losses -- loss of money or loss of your time. For example, if your sales volume is high enough that you can afford the occasional claim or rough DSRs, you can deal fairly summarily with any damage claim and let the chips fall where they may, as long as you don't have to waste a lot of your own valuable time on it. If your volume is lower and every claim/DSR counts, you have to balance the monetary loss of giving an unconditional refund (without return of the item) against not only a potential claim against you, but also the loss of the time you may spend trying to reason with the unreasonable and solve the unsolvable through direct communication or through eBay.

I have a relatively low volume and can't afford to have any customer go away unhappy. For a $10 to about $50 item, I'd just ask the buyer to send me a photo of the damage, then provide an immediate refund. For a more expensive item, I'd suggest the buyer return it with tracking, but if he/she balked, I'd probably pay for the return shipping if the item was still worth re-selling.

Yes, it is rather unfair to sellers, but I think people have become used to big commercial retailers offering a "no questions asked" immediate refund or replacement. I can give you a recent example: we bought a countertop convection oven that turned out to be defective. When we called the manufacturer, they told us that if the store from which we purchased it wouldn't replace it or refund us immediately, we could call them and they'd send us another oven, along with a postal voucher to return the defective oven. This was all over a rather inexpensive little ca. $150 appliance. That was service, we thought! And I think this is exactly what buyers expect of eBay sellers, whether it's realistic or not.

EBay's policies with regard to returns are useless bumph (IMO) that were designed to make sellers feel protected. The truth is, returning an item with tracking is really only logical if the item value is worth enough to justify it (and if it can be repaired and/or resold), and if you have a willing, friendly, understanding customer.

Unfortunately the damage is already done in this instance, but if this sort of thing occurs again, I would not let emotional responses by buyers get in the way of making a calculated business decision that will be best for you in the long run. I think you'll encounter the same buyer expectations whether you're on eBay or your own website, that is, buyers now feel that any problem with a product merits an immediate, friendly, unconditional refund at absolutely no cost to them. This is what the market at large has trained them to anticipate, and that's the unfortunate reality most of us smaller sellers have to deal with in order to stay in business here on eBay or elsewhere.

I truly am sympathetic, but I hope you can see the merits of avoiding banging up against a brick wall like this and wasting your valuable time on a hopeless buyer over a $10 item, only to be punished by eBay in the end. It's a better business strategy to simply cut your losses early and quickly, and move on to the next (pleasant) transaction.

femmefan1946 · ‎04-05-2014

I am suddenly told by the buyer that they contacted eBay who apparently informed her that it is my responsibility to pay for return shipping.

So she's a liar too, eh? We both know eBay said no such thing.

Well, now I'm informed that this case will be held against me because, and I quote, "eBay sided in favor of the buyer"...

EBay said that? Or the lying buyer?

In any case, yeah, that's a tough one. As I understand it, the seller must state that he will refund in full on the return of the item.

I'm not sure how clear the seller has to be about this.

The seller does not have to require tracking, that is for the protection of the buyer, because a less honest seller could claim not to have recieved the disputed item and the buyer will not be refunded.

EBay and PP need the tracking to confirm that the seller has the item back.

You got a lulu there.

If she refuses to return the earrings she will not win her case and you will not, I think, be penalized.

When all this dies down, apply to have the feedback removed.

And with 20/20 hindsight, some sellers will accept a photo of damaged purchases instead of insisting on the return. However, this madam is probably too lazy to bother with so much work.

And all this fuss over a $10 purchase. Gosh.

rose-dee · ‎04-05-2014

Just as an aside -- the way I look at these sorts of problems is to compare them to real-world retail issues. In a B&M store, you have to anticipate a certain percentage of losses due to shoplifting.

As an eBay seller, one has to be prepared for a certain percentage of losses due to spurious claims or damage that can't be proven. I suspect the shoplifting percentage is higher. At least we have the advantage of not having buyers' hands directly on the inventory.

froogal_electronic_parts_and_overstock · ‎04-05-2014

unfortunately thebartersdog you handled this mostly correctly but still wrong.

First, I may be reading extra info in, so forgive me if I am incorrect. but.....

A. if the item is damaged from the post office then a claim needs to be put in with the post office before the item is returned. While Canada post may ask for the item back often they will not, but they may need to see the item, packaging etc. If the item is under a claim Canada post will pay for the shipping back.

B. It sounds like an ebay claim was put in and you let it get escalated either by commenting in the claim, or letting the time run out. Once a claim is decided against you, then you will be penalized for it. The way you should have responded was to not communicate in the claim but through regular ebay email. It's all recorded so no worries. For the claim you need to respond to it by accepting a return . Accepted claims do not count against you (at this time but is changing)

C. If it's important to you ( it is to me ) you need to find out if this person is a scammer looking for a discount or if they are a genuine buyer with a broken product. Most are genuine. If you determine they are genuine, then you need to decide if you are paying shipping back to salvage the transaction or risk neg FB if you don't. Regardless of ebay's policies, if you don't pay shipping back, the buyer has every right to leave any FB regarding the sale they like.

D. When I get complaints about damage or quality, I always force the buyer to put in an ebay claim. The scammers won't because they know if they put in too many, they will bet banned. The genuine buyers do, because it's the normal process.

E. Just my opinion, but never respond to negative FB except to say 'sorry' or we goofed up. most everything else looks retaliatory or adversarial.

rose-dee · ‎04-05-2014

'froogal' -- I do agree with much of what you've said, except that it appears we're dealing with a $9.99 item. Canada Post wouldn't entertain a claim for damage unless the item was sent with insurance (which normally I would think would not be the case with a ca. $10 item).

Also, in my view, it's pretty difficult to find out whether a buyer is scamming or has a legitimate issue. Forcing a buyer to open a claim if they're unhappy may possibly weed out scammers, but I think it's also more likely to put off a buyer who really has an honest complaint about the product, to the point where that buyer may get defensive and leave negative FB and low DSRs anyway. My opinion is that most such claims are going to be legitimate anyway.

For a $9.99 item, my own reaction would be to minimize the potential damage to DSRs/FB by refunding immediately and very pleasantly, and avoid a claim entirely (you're right that soon open claims will be counted against sellers). Even genuine claims can be time-wasters, can be stressful for the seller, and may still result in lousy FB/DSRs after all is said and done.

For a $299.99 item, my approach would be different, but still very friendly -- please return for a full refund, and I'll cover the return shipping cost.

The bottom line is that you can't avoid every loss, and not every avoidance of loss is a win for the seller anyway (as the OP has found out). You gain a broken $9.99 item (or even a broken $100) item, but your seller status and reputation suffers? Not a wise bargain in my books.

froogal_electronic_parts_and_overstock · ‎04-05-2014

@rose-dee wrote:
'froogal' -- I do agree with much of what you've said, except that it appears we're dealing with a $9.99 item. Canada Post wouldn't entertain a claim for damage unless the item was sent with insurance (which normally I would think would not be the case with a ca. $10 item).

Also, in my view, it's pretty difficult to find out whether a buyer is scamming or has a legitimate issue. Forcing a buyer to open a claim if they're unhappy may possibly weed out scammers, but I think it's also more likely to put off a buyer who really has an honest complaint about the product, to the point where that buyer may get defensive and leave negative FB and low DSRs anyway. My opinion is that most such claims are going to be legitimate anyway.

For a $9.99 item, my own reaction would be to minimize the potential damage to DSRs/FB by refunding immediately and very pleasantly, and avoid a claim entirely (you're right that soon open claims will be counted against sellers). Even genuine claims can be time-wasters, can be stressful for the seller, and may still result in lousy FB/DSRs after all is said and done.

For a $299.99 item, my approach would be different, but still very friendly -- please return for a full refund, and I'll cover the return shipping cost.

The bottom line is that you can't avoid every loss, and not every avoidance of loss is a win for the seller anyway (as the OP has found out). You gain a broken $9.99 item (or even a broken $100) item, but your seller status and reputation suffers? Not a wise bargain in my books.

true. i wasn't paying attention to the 9.99.

I know forcing a buyer into a claim also has issues, but like I said, it's my pet peeve and if someone says there is a problem then they shouldn't be too worried about putting in a claim. I have had a lot of buyers claim the item was damaged or even not received, but then when i ask them to put in a claim, they fade away.

Canada post will put in any claim you have. If it was insured, that is. I agree the 9.99 changes how I would deal with it.

You are right. there are problems no matter what.

Here is a positive feedback I received after the buyer claimed they never received the item. I told them to put in a claim, they said no, I insisted, they never did. They were very polite. so was I.

Strong Seller. Thank You

WTH is that? I am telling you, if I buy an item and it doesn't arrive, I have no issues putting in a claim.

pjcdn2005 · ‎04-05-2014

WTH is that? I am telling you, if I buy an item and it doesn't arrive, I have no issues putting in a claim.

Why not contact the seller first and see if they will deal with it before you put in a claim?

I know that some sellers believe that if a buyer won't put in a claim it could be because they don't want to be on ebay's radar as being a buyer who regularly puts in claims. I'm sure that in cases that is true, but the problem now with insisting that someone open a claim is that you will automatically get a defect unless you win the claim. You could win an inr claim if you can show the item was delivered before the claim closes but other than that, it is difficult to win a claim. For those of us who are rated on a yearly basis rather than on 3 months, any claims that are now opened are considered a defect because in August, we will be rated on the previous 12 months..

Back to the OP.....If an item is damaged when a buyer receives it and the seller wants it back, I think that the seller should pay for return shipping. Why should the buyer be out money for a damaged item? As suggested by someone else earlier, in many cases I would ask for a picture of the damage and unless the item was expensive and could be fixed, I wouldn't bother asking for a return as there is no point in having back a broken item. But...with being said, it is ebay's rules that a seller does not have to pay return shipping so it doesn't seem fair that a buyer wins a claim when they refuse to send back the item. But that's the way it is so it makes sense to settle the problem before it gets to that point.

Did they actually close the claim and refund the buyer?

I would have a look at the buyer's feedback given to other sellers. If it looks as if they give a lot of negs or neutrals, you may be able to report them for that. If they had said that they would neg you if you didn't pay for return shipping then you should have been able to get the neg removed as they were asking for something that isn't a part of the original transaction.

thebarterersdog · ‎04-05-2014

Hi all. Rose any loss in money should always be considered a loss and we need our money just as the buyer does. We said we'd give her her money right away without fuss all along and asked her to send it to us, we didn't care if it was tracked and once in receipt, we'd refund. To me that's fair. Big stores don't pay for buyers' gas to return items, if the buyer wants the item returned, it's their responsibility to get the item to the seller. We didn't care how it got to us, as long as it got here.

No we don't believe the buyer when she stated the items were damaged but okay, return it, we'll refund it. I also believe, she won't return all of the lot either just so that she feels, she got the best of me. How stupid is it to cause such a fuss and end up with three times the shipping when she didn't want to pay for a postage stamp? The items were broken, we didn't argue that, slap it in an envelope and get it to us. Now she is really out money, for what? So that she would win? If she is angry with eBay, take it out on eBay. It's their policy. <sigh>

Ya, I know you all have your own share, I guess we're just frustrated with the whole stupid mess as I'm certain most of you are with the idiots you contend with.. Just burns my britches that I did exactly what is laid out in the return shipping policy and still got screwed.

But hey, c'est la ebay vie. I know this buyer has to feel pretty stupid right now having to send the items back and with tracking. If she'd just complied with the rules, she would have been out the value of a stamp. But there are those out there that have authority issues, and I believe she's one. We blocked her. I would recommend it to all.

Some great advice. Thanks for the views 🙂

Janet and Paul

thebarterersdog · ‎04-05-2014

Hey pj, she did contact me. She did so with a threat and a lie. It was her way or claim way.

Janet and Paul

rose-dee · ‎04-05-2014

@thebarterersdog wrote:

I guess we're just frustrated with the whole stupid mess as I'm certain most of you are with the idiots you contend with.. Just burns my britches that I did exactly what is laid out in the return shipping policy and still got screwed.

The problem (IMHO) is that we sellers want to believe that the return shipping policy is effective and will be the final word to back sellers who are doing everything right, whereas in most cases it's just smoke and mirrors concocted by eBay to make us feel we have remedies when dealing with a difficult or fraudulent transaction.

Frankly, I believe if you take a long, hard look at selling on eBay today, especially with the new "Defects" evaluations coming up, you have only two rational choices if you want to preserve your seller status: either refund cheerfully and immediately if the item is of lower value, and hope you'll get it back if the buyer is honest, or, for a more expensive item, refund immediately and pay for return shipping to ensure you get it back.

Everything else is just food for potential complications and blowback, from the buyer and/or eBay itself. Not much comfort for sellers, but I think this is the new reality here.

froogal_electronic_parts_and_overstock · ‎04-06-2014

@rose-dee wrote:
@thebarterersdog wrote:

I guess we're just frustrated with the whole stupid mess as I'm certain most of you are with the idiots you contend with.. Just burns my britches that I did exactly what is laid out in the return shipping policy and still got screwed.

The problem (IMHO) is that we sellers want to believe that the return shipping policy is effective and will be the final word to back sellers who are doing everything right, whereas in most cases it's just smoke and mirrors concocted by eBay to make us feel we have remedies when dealing with a difficult or fraudulent transaction.

Frankly, I believe if you take a long, hard look at selling on eBay today, especially with the new "Defects" evaluations coming up, you have only two rational choices if you want to preserve your seller status: either refund cheerfully and immediately if the item is of lower value, and hope you'll get it back if the buyer is honest, or, for a more expensive item, refund immediately and pay for return shipping to ensure you get it back.

Everything else is just food for potential complications and blowback, from the buyer and/or eBay itself. Not much comfort for sellers, but I think this is the new reality here.

the only good news for more experienced buyers is that they can use this to their advantage. My listings state that the buyer has to pay shipping back but I will give them a store credit. Most don't read that and just get into the ''i'm not paying shipping' argument. Less experienced sellers will fight with them, which makes for a short sales career on ebay. I may have to tweak how I respond, but normally I look like the good guy when I 'cave' and offer to pay shipping back....which I planned to in the beginning.

You are correct, and while it will become more difficult, if you plan it well, then you will be better off than other sellers. We are just going to have to incorporate this into the sales price. Maybe add some in when you are calculating the cost of your item with the 'free shipping'

i have a lot of problems with ebay, but the bright side is that beginners will have even more.