Ontario budget tries to keep province – and Liberals – afloat

[puckstopshere]

The first budget of Premier Kathleen Wynne’s term is as much about keeping her minority government alive as keeping afloat the nation’s largest provincial economy.

The $127.6-billion plan walks a line between gradually bringing down the province’s deficit – which is projected at $11.7-billion this year – while implementing Ms. Wynne’s Fair Society package of social legislation.

“We’re talking and taking the right approach – eliminating the deficit while protecting services people rely on,” Finance Minister Charles Sousa said. “Building a strong economy that creates jobs does not have to come at the expense of those more vulnerable who need help.”

And it is no coincidence that nearly all of the splashiest spending promises resemble the budget demands made by NDP Leader Andrea Horwath.

Ms. Wynne’s minority Liberals must secure the support of at least one other party to get the budget passed and avoid an election. With Progressive Conservative Leader Tim Hudak gunning to go to the polls, Ms. Wynne must depend on Ms. Horwath.

The budget dutifully responds, in whole or in part, to all of the third party’s demands: cutting auto insurance rates, putting more money into home care and changing some corporate tax credits.

But Ms. Horwath was not prepared to immediately endorse the plan. She acknowledged that the government had incorporated her ideas into the budget, but said the Liberals must put in place “accountability” measures to ensure the NDP-friendly policies are enacted.

For instance, she said, the party wants a mechanism to ensure auto insurance rates are cut within a year and that the government’s new money for home care reduces wait times.

Ms. Horwath said the NDP would spend the next week consulting voters – possibly through town halls – before deciding how to vote on the budget.

“We want to make this budget accountable and we’re going to listen to Ontarians in terms of how to achieve that,” she said.

In a few instances, the Liberal plan goes further than the NDP demanded. It pledges $700-million for home care over the next three years, removes the employer health tax exemption for big companies while offering more tax relief to smaller ones and brings in sweeping welfare reform.

Under the social-assistance plan, which will cost $400-million over three years, benefit rates will climb 1 per cent and recipients will be allowed to own a car and have up to $2,500 and still qualify for benefits. They will also be allowed to keep the first $200 per month of their benefits after finding work.

Other spending pledges include funding for First Nations housing, education and policing; added dollars for legal aid; $42-million a year for adults with developmental disabilities and money to toughen up enforcement of employment standards. Millions more dollars will go toward helping people with mental health issues.

It also contains a few incentives for businesses, including a plan to help manufacturing businesses buy new equipment.

But for the most part, the budget eschews ambitious spending for a hold-the-line approach to the books. The $11.7-billion deficit projection is $1.1-billion lower than previous projections. The budget also proposes to freeze public-sector salaries until the books are balanced in fiscal year 2017-18. Government figures show Ontario with the lowest per-capita public sector spending of any province.

This year’s deficit is projected to be higher than last year’s $9.8-billion. In part, this is because of lower economic growth forecasts. It is also because over the past year the government undertook tougher one-time fiscal measures, including an elimination of teacher sick days, which saved the government piles of cash.

As it is, this year’s projections lean heavily on austerity measures the government already took last year, including imposing contracts on teachers and raising more revenue from corporate taxes. It is not clear how the government can wash away the red ink without such tough measures in future.

And the PCs argued that the spending restraint does not go nearly far enough. The opposition party wants to see spending slashed, thousands of government workers fired and taxes cut. The Liberals’ attempts at balancing the books are too minimal, Tory finance critic Peter Shurman said.

“[It’s] like your doctor telling you to lose weight, eat better, quit smoking, stop drinking  start exercising – so you swear off Twinkies and you say that you’re a success,” he said.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ontario-budget-tries-to-keep-province-and-liberals-aflo...

[puckstopshere]

Everyone of those people have their own stories and some of them are horrible and we are lucky we haven't lead their lives past or present. Every time I hear of a story about someone on assistance I first want to hear the whole story and then I judge the person and the reasons.

Yes, some have lived terrible lives.

However, there are families that have been on welfare/mother's allowance/etc./etc.

They are weekly regulars at food banks - if there are 10 around the city, they will hit all of them.  They are on every list at Christmas for assistance. 

There is a church near me that has a free hot meal every Thursday.  After the meal, the recipients flock to the parking lot to smoke and use their smart phones.  CTV interviewed a woman at the Marconi Club last Christmas,  While she talked to the reporter, all four of her kids were visible - each on a phone.  Same thing at the Sally Ann toy distribution last Christmas.  We drove down to drop off some toys for the needy.  My guess is that 95% of the persons in line were on a phone - and not a cheap $15.00 a month phone.

I see a guy on a traffic island near where I live.  He panhandles there regularly with his cardboard sign.  Homeless!  Need help.  He is dressed in rags.  Only one flaw in his outfit.  The fancy NIke shoes he is wearing are new and carry a $200 price tag.  Yet, people regularly hand him folding money.  Does he declare that income like you or I?  How much does he make a day?  I have read reports that these types average $20 and hour or better.  The cops chase him off the island because he is a traffic hazard.  Twenty minutes later, he is back. 

For every person who truly needs welfare, I would guess there is at least one other person who is milking the system for all it is worth.  These welfare cheats would laugh in your face if you offered them a job.  Why should they work?. 

I have no problem with people collecting welfare - when they need it.   Unfortunately, the system is too easy to cheat. 

[prior-of-verity*shake-hands-with-your-devil]

However, there are families that have been on welfare/mother's allowance/etc./etc.

Yes and some of them as well have problems....dysfunctional lives, generation to generation. It's all they know and the only way to change things is to show them something different. But showing them doesn't come by cutting them off.....that will create other problems, some of which will be worse. One of the problems with our society is we don't catch the kids early and help the families with more than money. They need a whole new perspective on life.

My guess is that 95% of the persons in line were on a phone - and not a cheap $15.00 a month phone

Everyone has phones. They have become part of our society. Are you saying people on assistance shouldn't have phones because it's considered a luxury? Maybe they shouldn't have cable TV. How about no colour TV's ...only small black and white allowed. Maybe women shouldn't be allowed to buy makeup.....that stuff ain't cheap!

He is dressed in rags.  Only one flaw in his outfit.  The fancy NIke shoes he is wearing are new and carry a $200 price tag.

Are you judging people by their clothes?? Do you know where he got them? How much he got them for? Or are you just assuming? Years back I knew two girls whose father owned a chain of shoe stores. The sisters had shoes by the truckload....some not worn....some maybe worn once......expensive shoes. One day they moved from Canada back home to South America. They gave all the shoes to the Sally Ann. Based on your concept if you saw someone wearing a pair of expensive shoes......you ASSUME they bought them for what they are worth.

Attacks on people on assistance from people who know NOTHING about the actual people........really irritate me to no end!

[puckstopshere]

Everyone has phones.

That is my point.  Why should someone on welfare have an expensive cell phone with an expensive monthly plan?  There are cheap phones available.  Mine costs me $15.00 a month.  Being able to tweet, watch TV, surf the net, play games - those are luxuries that go way beyond the need for a phone. 

I live in an apartment building.  There are proud people here who work minimum wage jobs.  They can't afford a car - they take the bus.  They can't afford a house because they don't have a down payment and they wouldn't qualify for a mortgage.  They don't have a lot of luxuries because they can't afford them (unless they go on welfare).  Many don't have computers.  There kids use the ones at school or go to the library.  Our local library has a number of computers set aside for these kids. 

You can spin it any way you want.  Expensive cell phones, cigarettes, liquor - those are all luxuries that some welfare recipients seem to be able to afford.  If you want enough money to provide you and your family with the necessities - I have no problem with welfare.  If you want each of your kids to have an expensive phone (and assuming you are not on disability) - get a job.  But, then, according to you, welfare recipients are entitled to the luxuries while proud folk work and get by with only what they can afford. 

[prior-of-verity*shake-hands-with-your-devil]

Why should someone on welfare have an expensive cell phone with an expensive monthly plan?  There are cheap phones available.

Did they have expensive phones, you didn't mention that.....or is a smart phone and expensive phone? I have a cheap phone I think it cost me 70 bucks about 5 years ago. Most of my staff have I-phones or Blackberrys. (I honestly don't know one phone from another and don't really care to). Maybe I'm paying them too much money???? My phone is pretty smart.....it makes calls from anywhere and takes photos. I can't set anything on it and if I hit the wrong button and a lot of screen thingies comes up, I give it to the wife and say "fix this ____ thing"!

Are there not pay as you go plans and family plans? Do not some servers give you a free phone if you sign up with them on a plan? If a family on assistance has a relative who gives them an expensive phone are they allowed to accept it?

Personally, I could care less what phones they have. I think there are far, far more important things to be concerned about.  

according to you, welfare recipients are entitled to the luxuries while proud folk work and get by with only what they can afford.

Why do you have such a hatred against them? Why not focus your hatred at the rich who use tax loopholes and other abilities to hide their money? You want to talk loss of tax money?....those on assistance are chump change compared to the wealthy. Look at Fontana and technically he's nothing compared to what the bigger boys do and get away with.

I live in an apartment building.  There are proud people here who work minimum wage jobs.  They can't afford a car - they take the bus.  They can't afford........etc etc

Oh I agree, there are lots of working poor out there. My parents were also back in their day. My father never owned a new car (most were at least 5-6 years old and needed work), we always rented and everything I got was used. I worked since I was 12 years old and then had to give most of my income to my parents for the household. But I knew kids at school with wealthy parents and the kids got everything and did nothing... except exist. I also went to school and heard a million times...."you live over there"! (other wise known as the other side of the tracks). Actually it was the other side of the highway, but it might as well have been tracks. I spent a lot of time in detention, being strapped, caned and even being expelled for putting some doctor or lawyer's kid in his place which was on the ground, because back then being bullied was called "part of growing up". So I know and understand well how it feels when I hear some people talking about people on assistance (or poor people) as if they are worth less and should be treated less and should have less. The cruelty of people never fails to amaze me and anyone who knows me knows better than to spout that stuff in real life if they are in the same room with me.

People often do not understand the lives of those on assistance. They don't understand the loss many of these people feel. They don't understand that many of these people have just given up in life. I spent a year one time working with street people (actually working with them). I've worked in a car wash with them, worked digging ditches with them, worked on farms with them. I've spoken to them and heard about their lives and their losses and their unfulfilled dreams. A majority of them are good people just looking for a break or a chance but few will give them one. Ever seen the Canadian movie "Going Down the Road"? Here....it's worth watching..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xGObvZAN38  Different era but in many ways the same people, same problems. That is why when I got into business I started to hire those on assistance and gave them a job and taught them a trade.

My point is.......instead of complaining about them and hate mongering about them....give them a chance, especially the kids. Throw the anger and resentment towards politicians who give huge tax breaks to their rich friends, or build fake lakes and bathrooms out in the middle of no where to impress their friends and all that money could instead be used to help those who need a hand up to get decent work at decent wages and change their lives.     

[stevephinn2012]

People often do not understand the lives of those on assistance. They don't understand the loss many of these people feel. They don't understand that many of these people have just given

Ya like the Lady (i would assume she was around 45-based on age of daughter) who brought in her daughter to get her taxes done. Daughter had gone out and got a job at tim horton's

was actually proud to be doing Taxes for the first time.If I remember correctly the mom had made just over $18,000 on welfare and the daughters T$ was for just over that maybe $high 19,s,

Did the return and it ended up the daughter was getting a whole $50-$60 back. Kid was impressed. Mom looked over and said "Thats all your getting back? you worked all year and they are only giving you $60? Thats why i told you to just go on welfare instead of getting a job!"

is this really what our society has turned into to?

[puckstopshere]

Why do you have such a hatred against them?

Wrong, oh black one.  I do not hate them.  I hate a system that allows cheaters while honest folk suffer.  I thoroughly agree that there are those out there that NEED welfare.  Without it, they wouldn't survive. 

Then there are those who don't need it but take it anyway.

You can play your word games and dance around the issue.  Plain and simple, there are too damn many folks who cheat the system.  Smart phones, Blackberrys, etc. usually do not come cheap - especially if you get them free with your plan.  My son (who works for a living) has a Blackberry that does just about anything.  With tax,etc., he pays about $90 a month.  Multiply that by four for the example I gave.  We are talking $360.  Why does a person who is standing in line to get handouts at the Marconi Club (no, it wasn't Joe), accompanied by her four kids (yes, she identified them as her four kids) all of who have smart phones.  Maybe they have a cheaper phone plan.  Maybe it is only $200 total a month.  Still too much for someone who is pleading poverty and can't afford a Christmas dinner.  My phone is a cheapie.  It costs me under $16 a month with tax.  It does nothing accept allow me to make a few phone calls.  Which is fine with me as I don't intend to follow the trend of living on your phone 24/7. 

I too grew up in a poor family.  I remember my dad's first car.  It was a ten year old Plymouth.  He was proud of hell when he bought it as he saved and paid cash.  I worked delivering papers and food from a local restaurant - using my bike.  That was a fun job in the Vancouver rain and on the very steep South slope.  I still remember the name of the street at the bottom of the hill.  They used to order fish and chips - but only on rainy nights.  It was a long way down and a lot longer coming back up.  And no 18 speed bikes - just one.

So, I understand poor.  I understand the work ethic that gets people out of it.  I understand that life sometimes deals us bad breaks - and sometimes we deal our own.  No problem with truly needy folk on welfare.  It is why I give to the food bank and other charities.

It is the cheats that I cannot tolerate.

[pierrelebel]

"For every person who truly needs welfare, I would guess there is at least one other person who is milking the system for all it is worth. "

It is a very sad commentary on our society that some people really believe such degree of abuse (50% or more). 

Yes, like everywhere else there is abuse. Like most people, I see abuses too.  When money is involved, some people will cheat or abuse the system for personal gain. But to quantify it as such (50% or more) and spread that "information" as a fair representation of folks receiving social assistance reflects an unfortunate lack of knowledge of the situation.

Thankfully, we never had to receive social assistance benefits and I certainly do not hold my nose to those who do because they need to.

Our society needs a lot more compassion and a lot less finger pointing.

Dozens of non-profit organizations in all communities need volunteers for all types of projects.  Most address the needs of disadvantaged members of our society.  I think that anyone spending a few years volunteering may eventually see the situation differently.

[prior-of-verity*shake-hands-with-your-devil]

Mom looked over and said "Thats all your getting back? you worked all year and they are only giving you $60?

a) Honestly, I don't believe that story for a moment.

b) However, even IF it did happen......it is not the attitude of many of the people....and shouldn't be used to attempt to show it is the attitude of all the people. It's no different than someone who hates fat people, or hates people of a certain race, or people who hate people of a certain religion.....to back their case for hate.....they always find the worst and play it for all it's worth.

c) The fact that some jobs pay so little that when you consider benefits, yes it would be more beneficial to be on welfare. That's just a reality. It doesn't mean people do it. Maybe the focus should be put on better paying jobs and more good full time jobs as opposed to employers who want more part time people so they can pay less.

 oh black one

Black one????? What does that mean?

Plain and simple, there are too many folks who cheat the system.

"Too many"...........how do you know that? YOU DON'T! There are those who cheat the system in ALL the systems, professions, religions, etc etc etc!! NO group of any shape or form is without their few.

What bothers me is the constant attacks on people on welfare. When these people are constantly attacked it paints them all with a broad brush. When you see people who are always, constantly, pointing out the bad in a religion, or the bad of a race, or the bad of a political party........what do you gather from that? It shows they are trying to convince people that all people of that group are bad for one reason or another....and believe it or not.....people do start to believe that.

I came from the other side of that highway I spoke of. In this area bordered by a swamp and a highway on the edge of the city were many immigrants and poor or working poor. Also there were alcoholics and thieves and murderers. We even had three small apartment buildings owned by a devout Nazi. One night a cop was knifed at a bar and he died.....that didn't help at all. So of course there were those who wanted to put the area down and all the people in it. Do you have any idea the effects it had on all the other people who had done nothing wrong in life? Any idea?? Do you have any idea how it affected the kids who grew up listening to how bad they were only because they lived in a certain area and because there were small minded ignorant people who had one goal in life and that was to put the area and all the people down. When the same thing happens to people on assistance their children suffer. When all people read about and hear about is this person, or that person who cheated and that family that had too much................ they are unjustly condemned.

It is appropriate this subject was brought up because 2 weeks ago I got a call from a potential customer. He told me his first name and then his last. I knew the last name well because it's a bit unusual but the first name was not familiar. I figured it was a relative, maybe a cousin or grandkid but when I asked it turned out that it was the same person I knew by another name long ago. The name he first went by was his Italian given name but he later Englified it. We got reminiscing about the past, the neighborhood and the life. At the time he was the head of a gang in the area. We spoke about that as well. We remembered the condemnations we got from everyone else in the city. Put downs because of basically 4 families who were always in trouble with the law....out of maybe 5000 people. We spoke about how we had gotten sick and tired of being .......labelled and being pushed around by others from more affluent parts of the city. The other people......created the anger in us all. He told me the story about his little sister at the time who was ganged up on by other girls at school and she spent years not going out at recess because the was laughed at and called names ONLY because of where she lived. He told me how that childhood of constant ridicule affected her whole life. Why did he end up as head of a gang?.........because in unity there is power.....the power to stand up to the real bullies of society, the people who felt they were better, more superior. They were not a gang that stole cars or robbed or did drugs. The worst they ever did was a bit of bootlegging and a lot of fighting. But the gang gave them strength against others and that gave them some 'worth'. He said that when they walked down the street....the people who just the other day were laughing at them and calling them names....stepped aside....their power was gone. So my point is........when people attack another group of people because of their 'status' in life, remember that that attack also affects the innocent and has at times irreparable affects on their whole life. When people are constantly picking the worst of people on welfare (in fact or imagined), to tell stories about (which they don't know the whole true story about) it affects all the people on welfare and then some kid spends her schooldays in a hell created by others. I will not do that to people, my conscience won't allow me. You can decide what your conscience is worth. 

[puckstopshere]

 I think that anyone spending a few years volunteering may eventually see the situation differently.

Interesting.  I have spent my whole life volunteering.  Raising money for charity and donating my labor to help ease the discomfort of the disadvantaged and the disabled.  We spent 15 years as foster parents.  It was during this period of time that I saw, first hand, the abuse of the welfare system.  There were people who used foster care to their advantage. 

As an example, several families we dealt with sent their kids into a department store to shoplift clothes and school supplies in early August.  If the kids didn't get caught, they got free clothes, and a first experience in becoming a criminal.  If the kids got caught, they would end up in care for a week or two.  Because they had no clothes (or so the parents claimed), they got a whole new wardrobe, courtesy of the taxpayer.  How old were these kids? As young as seven.  When the kids got older, they learned to scam the system.  A teen coming into care would "give away" all their clothes to friends.  After Children's Aid bought them new ones, the other clothes would gradually re-appear.  Many of these kids had better wardrobes than my wife. 

I have a friend who volunteers at the London Food Bank.  His church also has a small food bank once a week.  He said that you see the same people at both places.  All but a very few arrive in cars.  I have talked to a soldier who is involved in their annual toy drive.  He says that they are aware that quite a few people  attend other toy giveaways as well as the military one.  Nice for kids to have toys at Christmas, but take from one source so that others get their fair share.

I remember years ago working a bingo for the Lions Club.  The govt. had just announced that they were reducing welfare payments and mothers allowance.  There were four ladies playing bingo - about $30 worth of bingo cards each - an amount that only an experienced player can keep track of.  They were eating snacks for the snack bar.  All four were smoking.  All four were ripping open Nevada tickets at the rate of $20 each time they bought.  No problem.  Four women having a nice night out.  Their conversation, however, was the exact opposite of what I would have suspected.  They were all complaining about the cuts to welfare and MA.  They were all wondering, out loud, how they were going to feed their kids by the end of the month.  "Hey mister, can I have two more strips for the jackpot."  Some would say that, just because they were on welfare, they were entitled to some enjoyment in life.  But at what expense?  Your kids not eating?  Or having to visit a food bank to supplement their supplies to get them through?  My father and mother sacrificed the things they liked in life so that I would have three squares a day.  My dad loved a cold beer on a hot day.  Most summers, he did without.  One of his biggest pleasures was the twelve pack he bought every Christmas. 

There are no statistics out there about people who cheat the system.  I stated a number - an estimate based on my experiences.  Again, no problem with welfare for those who need it.  Big problem with those who take it and don't need it. 

[puckstopshere]

As a foster parent, we fought so that the kids were treated fairly. When we started, we were given what were called welfare vouchers.  They were good at Sears only.  When shopping, you had to go first to the office to have the voucher approved.  Then you had to go to the clothing dept.  Many items were not available to foster kids - too expensive.  Once you found the clothing, you had to go back to the customer service area.  The clerks there seemed to take great pleasure in pointing out that we were using a welfare voucher - as if to belittle or embarrass us and make the kids feel bad. 

I changed that system.  Eventually, we were able to get a check.  We would cash the check then go shopping.  The "welfare rack" - as the employees referred to the clothing we could buy - disappeared.  We sat down with each child and decided what they needed and how much to spend on each item.  In this way, they learned something about budgeting money.  Once in the store, they could choose what they wanted.  They also learned to spend a little less on this item so they could spend a little more on that one.

It took me almost two years of fighting to get the changes made.  Shopping for clothes became enjoyable for the foster kids.  They were no longer centered out and made to feel that they were fourth class citizens. 

[puckstopshere]

A last memory.

I have been called a racist and repeatedly told that I hate this person or that.

Well, I do hate some people - and not so much hate - as just can't be bothered with.

Back when we were foster parents, we had lots of native kids. 

I remember one incident clearly.  Two native kids (probably 6 or 7 years old) were brought to us.  The first thing we usually do is feed them.  While my wife was preparing something quick and hot, I was talking to the social worker  The kids were sitting at the table next to us.  My wife brought out the food and said that she had forgotten knives and forks.

The social worker said.  "They are just savages.  They probably eat with their hands so don't bother with knives and forks."

About ten seconds later, the lady found herself standing on the street.  I had ordered her out of the house and told her not to come back until she brought her supervisor back and apologized to the kids. 

And she did.  She apologized in front of her boss.  Never saw her again.

Some people do stupid things to hurt others and do not deserve any of my time. 

[prior-of-verity*shake-hands-with-your-devil]

I knew two couples who were foster parents. They went into it with all the best intentions...and I heard the money wasn't bad either. One couple too kids between about 5 and 10. The other couple (they lived outside the city) took only girls. The first couple gave it up after a lot of problems over the years and finalized when a boy about 8 tried to burn the house down. The other couple gave it up after 4 or 6 girls they had were told they couldn't go to the Fair (probably as punishment for something) and when the couple were outside doing work....the girls trashed the house, even ripping off drywall.

A strange thing happened. Both these couples who had gone into this with the best of Mother Theresa intentions.....came out of it angry and very, very bitter. You couldn't get an understanding or compassionate word out of them about people on welfare or dysfunctional families if you used a stick of dynamite and a crow bar.

[puckstopshere]

You couldn't get an understanding or compassionate word out of them about people on welfare or dysfunctional families if you used a stick of dynamite and a crow bar.

In most cases, the problems with these kids has little to do with welfare.  Some people who were abused by their parents turn around and abuse their kids - because that's the parenting example they saw.  Probably 95% of the kids in care are there through no fault of their own.  If they are treated decently and with respect, they are usually not a problem.

The real problem is money.  That other 5% of the kids needs to be in a treatment environment.  Unfortunately, Children's Aid budgets are easy to cut because most people don't see the results.  A C.A. can ill afford the money they pay foster parents.  Specialized facilities can cost ten times that amount per day.

So, they dump seriously troubled kids onto well-meaning foster parents.  These parents have usually raised their own kids and done quite well at it.  Then you give them a kid that has serious behavioral and mental health issues - they have had no training to deal with the problems.  Foster parenting is a life style, not something you do unless you are really prepared. 

The result of these kids in unprepared foster homes is that they get bounced out in a hurry.  Thus, continuing the cycle of rejection in their lives, and the desire to act out.  CA's do the best they can with the resources they have.  Unfortunately, they can't even begin to deal with problem kids.

We had an eleven year old girl who had been in 56 different foster homes.  If she wasn't screwed up at the beginning, that would have finished her off.  The worse problem.  A bleeding heart judge who would not allow her 10 year old brother to be separated from her.  He was a wonderful kid but got dragged through hell because of his sister.  The night he was taken from our home - because his sister had tried to kill my wife - he cried.  He wanted to stay.  His name was Bobby and he broke my heart.

[prior-of-verity*shake-hands-with-your-devil]

I'm a bit lost. If we were talking about people on assistance or welfare then why did you bring up foster kids and then say welfare is not the problem in those instances?