Ready to Blow a Gasket

[r*m*trading]

Is there a full moon or what??? The wacko's are out.
I recently sold a set of tank emblems to a real fuss pot. I made extra sure these were JUST as described befor I emailed him to confirm that they were, he emails me today saying they are not and that he had bought to other sets before and they were unusable. He said these ones had deep scratches I KNOW THEY WERE %$### PERFECT. He wants his money back. Said he would pay the cost of shipping back. This is what I told him
"There were NO DEEP SCRATCHES ON THESE . Like I said they were in next to mint condition. You can send them back to me and I will look at them when they return if they are not the ones I sent you and your sending one of the other sets there will be NO REFUND. They were packaged so nothing would happen to them. Because you made it clear on how fussy you were about them. I will be able to tell by the way if they were the ones I sent.
you. Should I have said anything eles???
The writing is on the wall it says he is sending me one of the other crappy sets!!! Right???? Maggie

[catseye*]

what if he scratches them himself and sends them back?

[r*m*trading]

each one was wrapped seperatly I just dont want neg feedback I dont want to get taken either. I am not sure what else to do. All I know is they WERENT marked at all I guess I have the picture for proof but what good is that agianst this guy if he is scamming me

[shoplineca]

Here is what I do when faced with what I detect to be a scam. I tell the customer that I take digital photographs of every item that I ship, as I am packing it to make certain that no one is trying to scam me and for insurance purposes.

I ask the customer to send me photographs of the item and the area he is referring to with a defect so I can compare his pics of the item to mine before any talk of return even begins.

This puts the responsibility on the customer to take pictures and send them to me not knowing IF I have pictures and IF my pics show something comepletely different from his.

If it is suggested that it was scratched in transit I inform him that the carrier get in touch with him and after examining the item(s) will determine if it was scratched in transit based on what I tell the carrier about how I packaged it.

If they report to me that it was not damaged in transit and my pictures dont reflect the scratches at the time I packed the item, I then tell the customer that I will be filing a complaint with eBay and their local police for fraud using my pictures and the carrier's finding that damage was not caused during transit.

Only once has someone continued their fraudulent claim beyond the first stage of my telling them I have digital pictures of each item I ship. They ended up dropping their demand for a full refund when I told them that step two was filing an insurance claim where if determined no damage was caused by shipping, fraud charges would be laid.

PS There was a full moon last night.

Malcolm

[ononokajibwa]

I had a customer whine and complain about the cost of shipping, etc... When the item finally arrived (it was a barograph) he said the case was broken. Basically I told him Shopline said - send me proof! Take pictures and we can compare. Needless to say, I have yet to receive pictures. Stand your ground!

[r*m*trading]

Ok I took all adivse, I got this note back:

HI , THERE IS NO WAY THESE PARTS WERE DAMAGED IN TRANSIT . THERE WAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH YOUR PACKING . I DON'T TAKE PERSONALLY THAT YOU IMMEDIATELY THINK I AM TRYING TO PULL ONE OVER ON YOU GUYS BECAUSE YOU DONT KNOW ME PERSONALLY AND IF YOU STOP AND THINK ABOUT IT , IT MAKES NO SENSE . YOU HAVE $60.00 OF MY MONEY ! WOULD YOU CHANCE THAT YOU COULD GET A RE-FUND . I THINK MY CHANCES ARE VIRTUALLY ZERO BUT MAYBE YOU WILL SURPRISE ME .

I DID EVERYTHING I COULD TO FIND OUT IF THESE WERE AS GOOD AS NEW AND THAT WAS TO ASK YOU . IF YOU CHECK MY QUESTIONS IN THE E-MAILS YOU CAN SEE I MADE IT VERY CLEAR . I AM NOT ACCUSING YOU GUYS OF DOING ANYTHING UNDER HANDED . YOUR INTERPRETATION OF PERFECT AND MINE ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS OR YOU DID NOT LOOK AT THEM CAREFULLY ENOUGH .

MOST PEOPLE WOULD BE HAPPY WITH THESE AND SO WOULD I IN ANOTHER CIRCUMSTANCE BUT FOR THIS PROJECT THEY HAD TO BE PERFECT AND THEY ARE NOT , YOU CAN SEE THAT THEY ARE NOT . IT DOES NOT MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE THAT THEY ARE OLD . IT DOES NOT MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE THAT THEY ARE USED ALL THAT MATTERS IS THE QUESTIONS I ASKED YOU . PERFECT IS PERFECT , NOT A MARK ON THEM .

I WILL TRY TO GET SOME PICTURES TO YOU THIS WEEKEND BUT I WILL EXPLAIN WHAT IS WRONG WITH THEM .
FIRST YOU HAVE TO KNOW HOW THEY WERE MADE . THEY ARE DIE CAST ALUMINUM WITH GOLD ANODISED COATING . THE ALUMINUM IS ''BRUSHED'' BEFORE THEY ANODISE IT SO IT HAS A SATIN SHEEN TO THE LETTERS . WHEN DAMAGE HAPPENS THAT IS DEEP ENOUGH TO CUT THROUGH THE GOLD , THE SATIN EFFECT IS RUINED AND THE SILVER COLOR OF THE ALUMINUM SHOWS THROUGH . THIS HAS HAPPENED ON BOTH THE EMBLEMS IN SEVERAL PLACES . IN OTHER PLACES THE DAMAGE IS MORE OF A DENT LIKE A FINGERNAIL PUSHED INTO A PIECE OF SOFT LEAD . YES THOSE SMALL DEFECTS YOU SAW BUT DISMISSED IS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT BUT THEY STAND OUT LIKE A SORE .

I HAVE CLEANED THEM WITH A TOOTHBRUSH AND MILD DETERGENT TO REMOVE OLD DRIED WHITE WAX BUT YOUR WRITING IS STILL ON THE BACK AND THERE IS STILL A PIECE OF WHITE PAINT IN THE CORNER OF THE " i " ON THE RIGHT EMBLEM .

I AM LOOKING AFTER THEM LIKE THEY ARE MINE BECAUSE THEY ARE MINE ! I KNOW HOW EASY IT IS TO DAMAGE THEM AND I WOULD NEVER DELIBERATELY DAMAGE A GOOD PART JUST FOR THE SAKE OF A FEW DOLLARS . IF YOU UNDERSTAND THAT YOU UNDERSTAND ME AND YOU KNOW I AM ON THE LEVEL .

I asked for pictures but now he has all ready monkeyed with the parts How do I know he did do it???
AGGGGh I am in need of some gasket glue by the name of Jack Daniels

[shoplineca]

I hate to say it but he sounds more legitimate in this recent email. I just dont know why his first email to you, as you described, stated there were deep scratches.

Here is my problems with his demand for a refund:
It seems that in his recent email, he is not describing deep scratches, he is describing a blemish/dent that to a collector may present a problem for him selling or using them if trying to get maximum bucks for them or receive some first place prize for 100% restoration.

You have not billed yourself as an expert on these items aside from setting out that you believe in the restoration of older motorcylces and being in the business for 20 years.

Clearly his expectations and your interpretation were different about the perfect condition of the emblems yet nothing in your listings or your "About Me" page suggests that you are a registered or qualified appraisor of antique motorcylcle parts such that you are able or capable of grading them according to some standard (which I assume there is).

So, not knowing what your return policy is, all I can say is "Buyer Beware". You described the items as best you could and hod photos and he purchased them with an assumed risk because (a) he could not personally see them in advance and (b) he didnt ask about your return policy.

I had 3 people upset with me about my return policy (or lack of a published one) but I stuck to my guns. As a result I got one neg FB and one neutral FB over Christmas.

Malcolm

[alero0]

Here's my opinion. First check out his FB. If it's full of NEGs then politely blow him off. If it's decent then give him back his money less your ebay costs. He said he's willing to pay the return shipping. Make him understand that it was a misunderstanding on his part but you are willing to bend the rules for him.
You might be thinking, Why should I do this? This guy is WRONG!
I once had a buyer who received one of my speaker covers and claimed he wanted an enclosed bag. In my listings there is no mention anywhere about it being a speaker BAG. As a matter of fact it's probably mentioned about 3 times that they are slip covers.
He was WRONG, but I decided to give him the benefit of doubt that He misunderstood the description and refunded his money (less my costs) once he returned the covers.
Long story short: He was happy, gave me POS FB, Recommended me to 2 of his friends, I ended up selling close to $300.US in speaker covers through him. (The money I refunded him was under $40.)
Bottom line: We're in this business to make money. Sometimes in business you have to bite your tongue.
If you don't bend, he'll never buy from you again; if you do....who knows.

Harvey

[shoplineca]

Harvey
Sometimes it works out, as your case and other times it doesnt. There are times and customers who you just get a gut feeling about.

I had someone purchase a purple violin from me. A month after receiving it, he emails and tells me that he thought it was supposed to be an electric violin. He even suggests that I changed my listings from what I originally had listed and removed the word electric.

This guy went beyond making a mistake, he tried to accuse me of changing his listing which ended a month earlier.

I told him that the cost for him to return it to me would be almost the cost to add a pick up from a local music store and make it an electric and I would not accept the return.

The fact remains that he didnt want the instrument but attempted to lie about it and make me the party who misrepresented the item.

This is similar to what the OP's customer did in his first email. He accussed the OP of lying about the condition of the emblem being severely scratched.

When he realized that the OP may have pics of the emblem without any severe scratches in complete contradiction to his initial description, he changed his tune to describe the marks being more of a blemish, however one that would still leave the item less than perfect, according to him.

The fact remains, that there is a good chance the customer may just not want the emblem as he got another for less money and was prepared to severely mark it up and now is hesitant about how much he should mark the emblem as the OP's pics wouldnt support his claim.

I dont think the OP should risk a return following the more legitimate sounding response received in the 2nd email as it completely contradicts what was in his first email and that smells.

At the very least, wait until the guy sends pictures to see what damage or marks he is referring to.

Malcolm

[sunward-hobbies]

rmtrading

If this is item #452582 5451:
You can see the speck of white paint in the larger photo in your listing. Not "great condition" as described.

As for anodizing, it is a very delicate finish, and will show up everything. If there is a clear or wax finish, you may get some protection. Otherwise, even fingerprints will ruin the finish until polished.

It sound as if you didn't describe the piece properly.

I would email the person. Explain there is a misunderstanding. Have the buyer return the piece. Refund the purchase price and the shipping. Your mistake. You pay.

Angelo

[alero0]

Malcolm,
It's a tough call. I'm not out to make any enemies but not knowing either the buyer or seller I can see questionable statements in both stories. I'm just playing the Devil's Advocate.

The seller said they were 100% perfect and then said next to mint condition. I'm not saying anyone was trying to mislead anyone but if I were expecting something 100% perfect I would expect it to be Mint condition (not next to).

The buyer first said deep scratches and then downgraded them to blemishes. Possibly after cleaning the dried wax off those blemishes looked like deep scratches to someone who was expecting something in 100% perfect condition.

I could be totally wrong. Maybe the buyer is trying to pull off some sort of scam but figuring in his costs to send them back it seem like a lot of time and effort for a $60. sale. Then again some people have nothing better to do with their lives.

Sounds like I'm sitting on the fence....that's because I am. Once again I'll say it's a tough call but I still think; check out his FB. If he's doing this now chances are he's done something similar before. If it's decent, be the bigger person and take a chance and make a potential future buyer happy.

Harvey

[shoplineca]

I agree that its a tough call.

A few months ago I started a thread about refund policies. I dont post any policy as I prefer to judge from one instance to another whether I accept the return of an item or not.

I can say this to the OP having not seen their listing. I sell brand new musical instruments and list them as such fully aware that they have never been sold to anyone or even tested anywhere as a floor model but I would never suggest their condition is 100% perfect or 100% mint condition.

My instruments are not seconds either but each one has been hand made and can have slight imperfections somewhere on them. I check for any noticeable flaws before shipping but if someone wanted to examine an instrument, inside and out looking for "perfection" or "mint" they could probably call me up on the description and demand a refund as well.

Beauty and Perfection is to the eye of the beholder.

Its strictly a judgement call however the guy's first email is a long stretch from his second and that may be the result of being called on to prove his point or may be that he realized you get further by applying a little diplomacy and less threats.

Malcolm

[shoplineca]

If it was for listing 452582 5451, then the OP should stand his ground. I see nothing wrong with listing the item as "USED" and "GREAT CONDITION".

That is a far cry from "Mint" or "100% Perfect" and any buyer making a complaint based on such a description should buy new from a dealer and not used off eBay.

Malcolm

[alero0]

If that was the listing, I agree. But it's my understanding from the second E-mail that the buyer made contact to ask the condition of the item. This is where the issue of perfect becomes grey. Was he told they were? If so, I have to side with the buyer otherwise we may as well get rid of the Contact Seller tab.

[alero0]

r*m*trading,
Sorry for saying I have to side with the buyer. It's not my place to judge your actions or your buyer's. It ultimately comes down to you weighing all the issues and making a decision that you feel comfortable with. I hope all our opinions helped.
Good luck,

Harvey

[shoplineca]

I think what is missing for us to make any fair judgement are the emails that passed between the Buyer and OP.

In reading his email there seems to be some confusion if he asked "Are they Perfect" or "As Good as New" and without scratches or marks of any kind. It is unclear what exactly he asked in any earlier emails.

He goes on to state that for his specific project they had to be "Perfect" which I see the interpretation between the OP and the Buyer being considerably different.

Perfect condition to throw on another motorcylce and drive around with? Yes the OP would probably and rightfully state they are perfect. However the Buyer has some other idea in mind and anticipates that the Seller will understand in absence of him having to state how they will be used and how "Perfect" he expected them to be.

Also did he ask before or after he bought them or did he send his emails following the close of the auction and listing?

Communication is a funny thing and sometimes people go all around the bush without getting right to the point and asking what they want to know. As a result, they get an answer that may not satisfy their intended question.

Its like asking if the swimming pool water is cold. At 80F it might be for the person asking but not for the person being questioned. So who is right and who is wrong?

Knowing that 80F seems cold to the person asking, they should have asked what the temperature of the water was.

I think we have a similar situation here.

Malcolm

[alero0]

Malcolm,
I agree. Without seeing the emails we're just acting like some kind of kangaroo court making assumptions without seeing any evidence. (And you know about the word ass u me) This is why I said it comes down to the seller making his own informed decision. After all, He has all the emails.

Harvey

[r*m*trading]

lol...for those of you who keep refering to he its a she!!!and I thought I would let you see all communication,,Just in my own defense I believe these to be mint for used tank emblems if someones wants 100% perfect with no blemish ect. one should go and buy NEW not USED!!!!
Dear r*m*trading,

HI , I HAVE BOUGHT TWO SETS OF EMBLEMS ON EBAY THAT THE SELLERS SAID WERE PERFECT BUT WHEN I GOT THEM THEY WERE FAR FROM IT . ALTHOUGH THEY MAY HAVE BEEN OK FOR SOMEONE THEY WERE NOT UPTO PAR FOR ME . I CAN LIVE WITH THE BLACK PAINT THATS IN-BETWEEN THE LETTERS BEING A LITTLE CHIPPED BUT I DON'T WANT ANY I MEAN ANY SCRATCHES OR GOUGES . THE ITEM LOOKS GREAT IN THE PHOTO BUT HALF IS IN DARKNESS SO I AM GOING ON YOUR WORD THAT THEY ARE EXCELLENT AND GOOD ENOUGH FOR CONCOURS RESTO . I WILL CHECK MY E-MAIL TOMORROW MORNING IF YOU NEED TO WRITE ME . NOT MUCH TIME LEFT I KNOW .
2nd EMAIL
You will not be disapointed with these,there are in mint shape,i know how important it is for concours.................Thanks
3rd
I RECEIVED THESE ITEMS AND THEY ARE NOT AS YOU DESCRIBE . I CANNOT USE THEM . I AM REQUESTING A RE-FUND AND I WILL PAY FOR SHIPPING BACK TO YOU . LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU ARE WILLING TO DO .

[shoplineca]

I have a couple of questions. First is whether the Buyer's email was sent before or after the auction ended (or before or after she did a BIN)?

Generally emblems (I believe) are awarded 5 points in a show so I assume that the defect mentioned might be something that might cost the person 1 or 2 points.

Clearly the person didnt expect "MINT" as they indicated they would be satisfied with chips between the letters and simply asked that they be 'excellent' and 'good enough' for "concours resto".

What should have been asked is would the emblem qualify for 100% points' award in a show based on its condition.

Whether they would score 5/5 or 4/5, you indicated that they were good enough for concours but never confirmed they would score 100% as you were never asked.

The Buyer is also passing judgement before the emblems are affixed to her bike and judged, when in fact they may get 5/5 or 100% depending on what the rating system is.

I dont know if any of these thoughts from a layman help your thought process or not as to what to do or who is right.

Malcolm

[r*m*trading]

The gentleman had sent me his email re condition before the sale ended thats when I told him they were mint. All he told me was that it was for his concours resto nothing was or had been said about showing. YES Malcolm I agree with you he DID SAY he could live with chips between the letters. This is really SELLER BEWARE because he had already bought 2 sets and he wasnt happy with those. This is a real learning lesson I really need to be more explicit in stating something USED even if it is in my opinion mint....
MAGGIE