PayPal to Sellers: Don't Dissuade Shoppers from Using Us

[momcqueen]

http://www.ecommercebytes.com/cab/abn/y16/m08/i25/s03

PayPal to Sellers: Don't Dissuade Shoppers from Using Us

PayPal is updating its User Agreement in the UK, and one of the changes stands out as unusual: it's prohibiting sellers from dissuading shoppers from using PayPal. The following new language is being added to the UK User Agreement

"At all of your points of sale (in whatever form): you shall not dissuade or inhibit your customers from using PayPal; and if you enable your customers to pay you with PayPal, you shall treat PayPal’s payment mark at least at par with other payment methods offered."

Some of the speculation is that this means sellers won't be able to say 'Cash on Pickup' for local sales. I find this interesting because, according to the last conversation that I had with a paypal rep about Cash on Pickup, I was told the safest thing for a seller is to NOT accept paypal for items bought at the door and this is the reason: although paypal doesn't cover pick-ups for either the buyer or seller, if the transaction has been funded by a credit card company, paypal cannot stop an INR claim from being made by a buyer who used a credit card to submit payment to paypal for an item picked up at the door.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

[recped]

Play out? I doubt it's anything more than legal tweaking.

Think of this......Seller offers PayPal as payment and then within their listing that offers PayPal they go into a long winded rant abut why you should not use PayPal.

Keep in mind, this isn't even specific to eBay, it would apply to those who use PayPal on their own sites or any other marketplace.

Ina is probably just trolling for conspiracy theories from her fan base on this.

[momcqueen]

Very true. Some tasty Conspiracy bait will surely bring forth some of the blog's regular trolls.

It just seems to me, at least, an odd thing to specify in a User Agreement. Almost like it was a knee-jerk reaction to something we're unaware of.

[recped]

Irrational resistance to PayPal is very popular in Europe because low cost / no cost alternatives are readily available.

[momcqueen]

I did not know that.

I've not had issues with PayPal but I do stand resolute on Cash on Pickup. And even PayPal says it's the only way to avoid the threat of a credit card chargeback. Otherwise, I wouldn't be opposed. A buyer could send payment via PayPal even when they arrived, after inspecting it.

[momcqueen]

Really, as a seller, you want to make it as easy as possible to get paid and the easiest way to do that is to make it easy for your buyer to pay you. If they want to use PayPal, it should be a no-brainier to allow them to do that. Unless you stand to lose a lot more than your fee-per-PayPal use. (Like a chargeback case on Local Pickup where you don't have tracking to prove the buyer received it.)

[femmefan1946]

 (Like a chargeback case on Local Pickup where you don't have tracking to prove the buyer received it.)

But are those likely -- or are they urban legends?

I think it is more interesting to note that with a B&M store that allowed pickup for cash as well as Paypal and mail shipping. we NEVER had a chargeback for INR.

And.

Even long term customers, who bought in the shop. would prefer PP for online purchases. Although we accepted and we used direct cc payments.

Let's face it.

Americans are .... foreigners,

They just don't think like us.

[momcqueen]

Likely? Probably not all that likely. Particularly in the event of, like, a $20 toy. I would think that the trouble one causes oneself when initiating a credit card chargeback is probably NOT worth it unless for a high-ticket item which does not apply to a majority of my Local Pickups. Winnipeggers are a notoriously thrifty bunch. I think I've had only a handful that exceeded a hundred dollars or more. Most are in the range of $15 to $50. I'd probably be safe enough to offer it.

But cash is nice to hold in one's hands on occasion, and studies have shown people place more value and gain more satisfaction from things for which they have paid cash.

And then I wonder about liability of handing out pre-paid PayPal orders. How would I know they've gone to the person who paid for them. Ask for ID? Also an unlikely area of fraud, I realize. Yet one that does exist.

[i.am.vivian]

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@mjwl2006 wrote:

PayPal is updating its User Agreement in the UK, and one of the changes stands out as unusual: it's prohibiting sellers from dissuading shoppers from using PayPal. The following new language is being added to the UK User Agreement

"At all of your points of sale (in whatever form): you shall not dissuade or inhibit your customers from using PayPal; and if you enable your customers to pay you with PayPal, you shall treat PayPal’s payment mark at least at par with other payment methods offered."

---

Since this is about the UK user agreement I am thinking it is because other payment forms like personal cheque and money transfer are so popular there and preferred by lots of people in the UK and Europe.  I have even seen listings that said for UK they preferred a personal cheque, for international it was PayPal.  PP is trying to make people in the UK use it more.  It is just a matter of time until eBay takes the other options off the checkout the way it is in North America.  

They will have a hard time forcing people NOT to prefer cash on pick up because it is what everyone wants.  I would not consider PayPal for a pick up order.  We sometimes sell valuable or risky or fragile (or all) items locally because of the risk.  If someone wants to walk out with our stuff then we must have their cash in our hands.  Anything we list as "pick up only" means cash only.  PayPal does not yet own eBay so they will not be able to dictate eBay's policy at least not for a while. 

[i.am.vivian]

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@mjwl2006 wrote:
Likely? Probably not all that likely. Particularly in the event of, like, a $20 toy. I would think that the trouble one causes oneself when initiating a credit card chargeback is probably NOT worth it unless for a high-ticket item which does not apply to a majority of my Local Pickups. Winnipeggers are a notoriously thrifty bunch. I think I've had only a handful that exceeded a hundred dollars or more. Most are in the range of $15 to $50. I'd probably be safe enough to offer it.

But cash is nice to hold in one's hands on occasion, and studies have shown people place more value and gain more satisfaction from things for which they have paid cash.

And then I wonder about liability of handing out pre-paid PayPal orders. How would I know they've gone to the person who paid for them. Ask for ID? Also an unlikely area of fraud, I realize. Yet one that does exist.

---

True, a chargeback on a PayPal pick up would be unlikely.  I wonder what would happen if it did ocur, like if 6 months later the PayPal buyer filed a chargeback, what would PP do?  When the seller insisted the item was picked up, would PP believe the seller?  They don't usually.   

Its probably best not to imagine a scene where your PayPal buyer picks up all their Christmas things, only to have someone else show up a few hours later claiming to be the buyer come to pick up the order.   😄  

[momcqueen]

The PayPal rep told me that the bill of sale needs to show it was a Pickup in order for the lack-of-protection to be followed. That rep made it sound like PayPal wouldn't have a problem denying the buyer's INR claim on a bill of sale marked Local Pickup but that they would be powerless to deny a chargeback.

[ypdc_dennis]

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@i.am.vivian wrote:
...  PP is trying to make people in the UK use it more.  It is just a matter of time until eBay takes the other options off the checkout the way it is in North America. 

---

Not very likely, the financial laws and rules are different in Europe. Plus since eBay and PayPal split there is not the incentive for eBay to narrow payment options down to paypal.

-..-

[rose-dee]

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@recped wrote:

Play out? I doubt it's anything more than legal tweaking.

Keep in mind, this isn't even specific to eBay, it would apply to those who use PayPal on their own sites or any other marketplace.

---

Yes, I agree, it's tightening of legal terms for those who have user agreements with Paypal.  

Looking at the text quoted above, I'd say the focus is on private retail websites that make use of the Paypal logo/label, then add whatever other language they wish to entice customers to make use of other forms of payment that carry no fees.  What Paypal is doing is trying to curb fee avoidance in areas (like Europe) where there are free alternatives. 

In my view this is unlikely to affect eBay sellers, since it is eBay itself that has the agreement with Paypal, not individual sellers.  To change whatever legal arrangement eBay has with Paypal would involve negotiation and restructuring of the site.  From what I can recall, the current eBay-Paypal agreement is valid for some time yet in any case.  

I'd say this is just Ina Steiner stirring the pot for lack of a better current fright-scenario to grab onto. 

[momcqueen]

Yes. A headline that reads, The Sky is Falling will always garner more attention than one that says, No One Died Again Today.

Fond memories of my first day at J-school.

As an aside, the person who now speaks to media at CPC was my classmate. We graduated together. Long long ago. It's a small world, after all.

[momcqueen]

And perhaps its due to lack of other alternatives here but I've never begrudged PayPal its fees. I think it's marvelous that there's a way for people to pay someone where a third-party does the currency conversion. It's fast, easy and simple.

[rose-dee]

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@mjwl2006 wrote:
And perhaps its due to lack of other alternatives here but I've never begrudged PayPal its fees. I think it's marvelous that there's a way for people to pay someone where a third-party does the currency conversion. It's fast, easy and simple.

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I've never felt Paypal fees were unreasonable either.  Although banks and other providers do currency conversion for international transactions as well.  

The real appeal to me of Paypal is that customers do not need to disclose their financial information to me as a seller.  In my view, that extra level of separation and security for buyers is itself worth the fee.  

In the bad old days on eBay when there was a plethora of payment options available, none of them immune from fraud or abuse, buyers and sellers had little protection.  Bidpay lasted longer than most, but was nowhere near as secure and efficient as Paypal.  There really are no better, more efficient and safer alternatives on eBay at present (with the possible exception of cold hard cash on pick-up, although that has risks of a different nature). 

[i.am.vivian]

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@ypdc_dennis wrote:

the financial laws and rules are different in Europe. Plus since eBay and PayPal split there is not the incentive for eBay to narrow payment options down to paypal.

-..-

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I know the laws are different there for lots of things related to commerce, not to mention people's fondness for habitual practices like getting the cash in their hands before mailing the item,  so I don't think anything I said was in need of your correction but thank you for your kind offer.  I did say that  PayPal does not yet own eBay so they will not be able to dictate eBay's policy at least not for a while  because no one here can predict the future.   🙂  

[i.am.vivian]

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@rose-dee wrote:

I'd say this is just Ina Steiner stirring the pot for lack of a better current fright-scenario to grab onto. 

---

I agree that she does seem to make too much of little issues or maybe it is because people see something in print and think it must be a really REALLY big deal if she is going to write about it.  Coming up with a new article all the time is her job but there must be times when even she knows she has to tell people SOMETHING even if she has nothing to say.  

I also do not dismiss people's concerns about what it could mean 

"At all of your points of sale (in whatever form): you shall not dissuade or inhibit your customers from using PayPal; "

because it is part of the agreement when people sign up to PayPal and click to agree.  If they agree to something that is legally binding and it does not say "except on eBay, where this really doesn't count", then people will not simply accept being told "there there, don't you worry your pretty little head about anything".  If a legal agreement says "at all of your points of sale"  it means at all of your points of sale (in whatever form). 

[momcqueen]

Right: but is Local Pickup considered a point of sale? I guess a call to PayPal would probably clarify this.

[i.am.vivian]

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@mjwl2006 wrote:
Right: but is Local Pickup considered a point of sale? I guess a call to PayPal would probably clarify this.

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Technically yes, but we have all highlighted just how draconian it would be for PP to even TRY to push this that far.  Whether on eBay or anywhere else, everyone likes cash on local pickup.  There can be no presumed exceptions in a legal agreement.  I wouldn't accept whatever a CS Rep said on the phone as the definitive answer, would you?