Another seller selling copies of my pattern

Is there anything I can do about this? I sold a copy of a vintage pattern that I have from a book that I have to a buyer in the US. Someone wrote to me today and asked if I knew that she is selling copies of this on eBay and Etsy. At the time I was having problems with my printer and it made some defects, and these are the same on her picture, she can also cut off my watermark.

 

Will eBay do anything about a situation like this? Is it even worth calling?

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Another seller selling copies of my pattern

Am I understanding this correctly?

 

You made a copy of a pattern from an old book and sold it.

 

Now someone else makes a copy of your copy and sells it.

 

If that is the case, you have no copyrights to your copy.

Message 2 of 14
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Another seller selling copies of my pattern

You were selling a copy of an out of copyright (?) pattern.

The buyer is selling copies of the copy.

You are not the copyright holder.

The buyer -- or the buyer's buyer-- has as much right to sell the pattern as you did.

 

You can complain if the other seller is using your text and pictures.

Message 3 of 14
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Another seller selling copies of my pattern

I thought that in order to sell copies of patterns from books no longer in copyright, you had to have a copy of the book, she is using my pictures.

Message 4 of 14
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Another seller selling copies of my pattern

Once you sell something, it is the property of the buyer who can do with it as she will.

 

she is using my pictures.

If she is using your photographs in her eBay listings, you can Report that to eBay. Obviously, etsy won't care.

If you mean she is photocopying your photocopies, she is not doing anything illegal.

 

And if the book you took the patterns from was still in copyright, you did not have the right to copy them in the first place. I know little of copyright law, but if your book was less than 50 years old, I'm pretty sure the book's author still has an active copyright and you should not be selling them. But it might be 75 years. Like I said, not an expert.

Message 5 of 14
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Another seller selling copies of my pattern

Yes, she is using my pictures. I rarely sell copies, this one is in public domain from an old Australian book, I have been selling them for about 12 years. I have no objection to anyone else selling the same copies, there are thousands of sellers of craft patterns who only do that, my objection is buying mine, and then using my pictures. Most sellers of copies state that the copy is from their own book.

 

There is a uk seller who purchased several books from me that are still in production, and is selling a Xerox copy of each pattern in the book, she has thousands of them. She has never been taken down and has hundreds of negative feedbacks, but still keeps going. I know that copyright laws are different for each country, my book was not published in North America. I got my copies printed, so they are good copies and do have a cost to me.

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Another seller selling copies of my pattern

I know something of copyright issues, having worked for a number of years as a paralegal/researcher in trade mark and copyright law, and being a publisher of patterns myself.  It is a complex subject that even experts can get bogged down in, and it's never quite as simple as just counting the number of years from publication (or creation) date.  

 

Copyright law has been fairly standardized internationally, and Canada's Copyright Act is in line with other major international legislation. 

 

Essentially copyright exists for the life of the author, the remainder of the calendar year in which the author dies, and for 50 years following that year.  So regardless of the date of publication, if the author is known, you must work from the date of death.  If the author is still alive, copyright subsists. 

 

If the identity of the author is unknown (often the case with old patterns and craft publications), the copyright exists for whichever of the following ends earlier:

 

(a)  the rest of the calendar year in which the work was published, and a period of 50 years after the end of that calendar year; or 

 

(b)  the rest of the calendar year in which the work was created, and a period of 75 years after the end of that calendar year.  

 

If the identity of the author becomes known during either of these periods, then copyright reverts to the original author as noted above (i.e. 50 years after the end of the calendar year of his/her death).  

 

The law for multiple authors is somewhat similar to the above, with copyright continuing until 50 years after the year of the death of the last known authors/makers of the work.  

 

So, for example, if you have a book published in Australia in 1930 and the author's name is stated in the book, then you should, to be completely certain the work is in the public domain, attempt to find out when the author died (not impossible these days with online record-keeping).  If the author died in, let's say, 1950, then copyright lapses 50 years after the beginning of 1951, or 2001.  

 

If the author lived to be quite old, it's conceivable the work could still be in the public domain.  It gets a little harder to be sure of public domain status if the author's date of death can't be confirmed.  In that case, taking the Australian book example, if one assumes the author was at least an adult when it was written, say about 20 years old, i.e. born in about 1910, it is highly unlikely he/she would still be alive.  However, it is likely he/she might have lived until the 1970's, 80's or 90s', in which case 50 years after the date of death would put the work squarely within the original author's copyright. 

 

The reason this is important is that in some cases, copyright royalties or contracts are owned by the family or descendants of an author, and they continue to have the right to enforce the author's copyright. 

 

I would say that generally you're probably fine with a work published prior to 1900, but not always, especially if the author is named in the work and happened to have lived a long life.  The only works that can truly and without doubt be said to be within the public domain that have known authorship are those published beyond the conceivable remaining lifespan of an adult, plus 51 years (working from the assumption that most books are published by adults over 20 years of age).  

 

Of course people didn't generally live as long before about 1950, so to meet a 90-year-old was unusual in those days.  If we take 90 years as the longest reasonable lifespan before 1950, and assume a remaining lifespan of 70 years from the earliest likely publication date, then add 51 years (after the year of death), that is 121 years from the date of publication, or (for the current date, 2015), works published prior to 1894.  

 

So although many people believe the material they're using is in the public domain merely because it's "old", much of that material is still, strictly speaking, copyright.  It's obviously easier to be on safe ground if the author is unknown to begin with and the work was either published 51 years ago (1964) or, if unpublished but without a known author, 76 years ago (1939).  

 

I see items all the time being sold on eBay that I know are copyright, but whether the original owner/author or any royalty owners are interested in pursuing their rights through the courts is a matter of risk.  Usually the higher the original value or popularity of the work (and the more recent), the more likely a violator is to be pursued.  What irks me more is seeing eBay sellers who openly claim the item is "in the public domain", when in fact they probably have no idea whether this is true.  

 

As far as use of a seller's own listing photos is concerned, this is of course the same issue of copyright.  You can try reporting the matter to eBay and they may take down the offending listing on that basis, but not because of any copyright infringement. 

 

Basically, once a work is truly in the public domain, if it is merely photocopied (in whole or part) and resold, then it remains in the public domain and is free to be used in whatever way a buyer chooses.  Where an item in the public domain is converted into a new work (and there are varying definitions of what constitutes a "new" work, but generally that means some substantial addition to, or alteration of the original), then the maker of that new work holds copyright.  This is the case with my own antique patterns, as they are over 100 years old, the authors are unknown, and they are almost completely reworked, revised, added to and altered by the time I publish them.  

 

I apologize for the lengthy post, but I see so much misunderstanding of what "copyright" actually means (including confusing copyright with trade mark, a completely different thing), that I thought this might be helpful for others as well.  

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Another seller selling copies of my pattern

I meant to add that eBay is unlikely to take down a listing for copyright violation unless the person making the complaint can verify that he/she is the holder of the original copyright.  You're probably familiar with VeRO, eBay's own copyright holder registry, but anyone who can prove ownership of a work would probably be able to get eBay to take action. 

 

In the case of old books and patterns, as I said, this kind of copying goes on all the time on eBay and having it stopped is unlikely unless there is enough financial potential involved to make it worthwhile for the original owner to pursue (and even then, the owner has to actually find out about it in the first place).  Unfortunately, I think this kind of copyright violation -- what I call "fuzzy" copyright use -- will no doubt go on unchecked.  It's just too difficult to police and enforce the legions of violators. 

Message 8 of 14
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Another seller selling copies of my pattern

Sorry, a correction to the post #7 above (I got timed out of editing):  

 

"If the author lived to be quite old, it's conceivable the work could still be in the public domain."  was a slip.  It should have read: "could still be 'copyright'

Message 9 of 14
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Another seller selling copies of my pattern

Thank you for your help. We looked into copyright laws a few years ago when my husband was asked to make up a hymnbook for the organization he was working for. One thing we found was that it didn't just depend on the age of the printing, but was more complicated.

 

The book that my pattern was in had no author, but the company that printed it no longer exists. That is one thing that we found with the hymns, if the publisher was still active, then it was still under copyright in most cases and my husband had to write and ask for permission to publish it in a new book (I don't think any refused).

 

I was only asking in this case for the removal of my photograph, i understand that it is against eBay rules to copy another sellers pictures (or text which she didn't do).

Message 10 of 14
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Another seller selling copies of my pattern


@triber wrote:

One thing we found was that it didn't just depend on the age of the printing, but was more complicated.

 

Yes, this is quite true.  As I mentioned above, many sellers on eBay assume that simply counting the years from the date a work appeared is sufficient.  It isn't. 

 

The book that my pattern was in had no author, but the company that printed it no longer exists. That is one thing that we found with the hymns, if the publisher was still active, then it was still under copyright in most cases and my husband had to write and ask for permission to publish it in a new book (I don't think any refused).

 

If your book had no known author and it is at least 51 years from the publishing date, then it's in the public domain.  However publishers themselves (unless they are a consortium of authors of a work) don't hold the copyright, the actual authors do.  So although the advice you were given was partly correct, it is really only true to the extent that active publishers tend to have authors who are identifiable (and often still alive), which makes the likelihood of subsisting copyright higher for that reason.  

 

Normally when asking permission to republish (or extensively quote from) a work, you would be dealing through the publisher, who would have to obtain the copyright holder's permission.  The only exception would be a case where the publishing company itself had purchased the rights from the original owner (which does occur). 

 

I was only asking in this case for the removal of my photograph, i understand that it is against eBay rules to copy another sellers pictures (or text which she didn't do).

 

Yes, I did understand the reason for your original question, and you're right that the other seller should not be using your own photos to sell her item(s).  The photos you take, as well as the descriptions you write, are, strictly speaking, copyright and it is against eBay policy to pirate them.  I'd try to follow up with eBay on that aspect. 

 

 

Message 11 of 14
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Another seller selling copies of my pattern

One problem I have is that when we moved 5 years ago and drastically downsized, I got rid of a lot of my books including this one. I was a very large hardcover  book. I know I checked it out at the time, and couldn't find the publisher any more, but I don't remember the exact year it was published. The other seller has removed her listing, but sent me a veiled threat about my copy being "an illegal reproduction", which is laughable when she was selling the exact same thing. I have taken mine down for while, even though I know I checked carefully when I started selling these about 12 years ago.

Message 12 of 14
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Another seller selling copies of my pattern


@triber wrote:

One problem I have is that when we moved 5 years ago and drastically downsized, I got rid of a lot of my books including this one. I was a very large hardcover  book. I know I checked it out at the time, and couldn't find the publisher any more, but I don't remember the exact year it was published. The other seller has removed her listing, but sent me a veiled threat about my copy being "an illegal reproduction", which is laughable when she was selling the exact same thing. I have taken mine down for while, even though I know I checked carefully when I started selling these about 12 years ago.


This is just sour grapes on her part and a silly attempt at intimidation.  She's simply ticked off because she got caught doing something she shouldn't have. 

 

You don't need to know the publisher of the book to determine whether copyright still pertains.  As long as you know there was no author named and the book was published over 51 years ago (or you're fairly sure that it pre-dated the mid-1960's), it would likely be in the public domain.  

 

In any case, the chances of the original author actually popping up to identify him/herself and claiming copyright (or of the other seller being able to do anything about it) are virtually nil.  The other seller would have to track down the original author to get anywhere with such a threat, and even then it would have to be the author, and not the seller, who would need to take steps.  I wouldn't be too concerned about it. 

Message 13 of 14
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Another seller selling copies of my pattern

Thank you, that puts my mind at rest.

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