eBay

durian_noir · ‎08-07-2013

Bought porcelain dish, arrived broken, who pays shipping?

I bought a dish that arrived broken due to gross negligence by sender. The dish was only wrapped thinly in a cloth. No nuggets or any other suitable stuffing, nor any other wrapping.

The width of the box was only 5cm (2"), much too thin. Breakage was 100% foreseeable.

Payment for item was deducted by seller, payment for international shipping was deducted by shipper (Pitney Boweys, Inc).

Upon informing and sending pictures of breakage seller refunded item cost immediately.

So, who has to pay for the shipping? After all, negligent packaging is not the buyer's fault.

What is the right way to proceed with this?

TIA, peter

marnotom! · ‎08-08-2013

So if I'm reading this correctly, this item shipped through the Global Shipping Program.

The seller will only have received funds from your payment that would pay for shipping the item to the Global Shipping Center to Kentucky. The rest of the shipping amount you paid would have gone to Pitney Bowes. The seller can only reverse part of the shipping payment. (US$8.00 in this case, I believe.) The rest would come out of their own pocket.

I would suggest calling eBay customer service and ask to be put through to the Global Shipping Team and explain your concerns to them there. I see that you're just asking for the shipping fees to be returned, not the import fees (taxes and customs clearance fees). If this is the case, this may work in your favour as you still have the item, even if it is damaged.

Am I making sense here?

gifts_of_elegance · ‎08-08-2013

@marnotom! wrote:
So if I'm reading this correctly, this item shipped through the Global Shipping Program.

The seller will only have received funds from your payment that would pay for shipping the item to the Global Shipping Center to Kentucky. The rest of the shipping amount you paid would have gone to Pitney Bowes. The seller can only reverse part of the shipping payment. (US$8.00 in this case, I believe.) The rest would come out of their own pocket.

I would suggest calling eBay customer service and ask to be put through to the Global Shipping Team and explain your concerns to them there. I see that you're just asking for the shipping fees to be returned, not the import fees (taxes and customs clearance fees). If this is the case, this may work in your favour as you still have the item, even if it is damaged.

Am I making sense here?

Lol....what a deal! You might get to keep the broken item for FREE! Duh...........

marnotom! · ‎08-08-2013

@gifts_of_elegance wrote:
Lol....what a deal! You might get to keep the broken item for FREE! Duh...........

Seems preferable to what PayPal might rule if a claim were filed: The buyer would have to return the broken item with tracking on their own nickle, where it would likely have the same fate as if the buyer were to keep it and have their money returned.

pjcdn2005 · ‎08-08-2013

According to one of the ebay reps, both import fees and original shipping fees should be refunded by Pitney Bowes and/or ebay so you should phone ebay.

durian_noir · ‎08-08-2013

So, how does one contact Ebay reps?

I can find only forms and links that give you the runaround.

Basically, I tried to file a resolution via Paypal. It says it cannot be filed because the transaction is not finished yet.

The parcel was taken right back by Fedex. It is treated as non-accepted, damaged item. They are contacting Fedex in the US, who will contact someone. Strangely, according to the seller they posted the parcel via USPS, but it was delivered by Fedex. Due to the Global Shipping Program.

I'm quite negative because this looks basically looks like a scam. They even charge an "import charge", something that only customs of the import country has the right to charge. Looks as if they found a way to milk some not quite legal fee from in between the seller and buyer, with the help of Pitney Bowes?

Anyway, the seller seems to know even less than me about the process. They appear to be book sellers, which could have caused their ignorance because of the negligent packaging. Books don't get broken however you toss them around in the mail.

marnotom! · ‎08-09-2013

@durian_noir wrote:

So, how does one contact Ebay reps?
I can find only forms and links that give you the runaround.

I clicked on the "Customer Support" link on the top right-hand corner of this page, followed the appropriate links and came up with an 866 number and passcode that I could use. Your mileage may vary, I suppose.

Basically, I tried to file a resolution via Paypal. It says it cannot be filed because the transaction is not finished yet.
The parcel was taken right back by Fedex. It is treated as non-accepted, damaged item. They are contacting Fedex in the US, who will contact someone. Strangely, according to the seller they posted the parcel via USPS, but it was delivered by Fedex. Due to the Global Shipping Program.

Did you try to file a claim for the seller's portion of the sale, which you can't do now because your seller gave you a refund, or did you try filing a claim for the GSP's portion of the sale, which should be something separate if I understand the GSP correctly?

As for the shipping of the item, the seller may have shipped it by USPS to the Global Shipping Center in Kentucky and it was handled by FedEx (and possibly another carrier) from Kentucky onwards.

I'm quite negative because this looks basically looks like a scam. They even charge an "import charge", something that only customs of the import country has the right to charge. Looks as if they found a way to milk some not quite legal fee from in between the seller and buyer, with the help of Pitney Bowes?

I was going to go through a longer explanation for this, but I'll keep it simple. "Import charges" are the taxes (and duty, if applicable) due on the item plus various charges associated with customs clearance and collecting of the taxes. The GSP isn't charging you for the taxes. They just assess the taxes due and expect to collect them for you on behalf of the feds, to whom the taxes are remitted. Keep in mind that Canada Post charges you and me C$9.95 when Canada Border Services wants to collect taxes on a postal import.

Anyway, the seller seems to know even less than I about the process.

Does this mean that you clicked on the links on the listing page to the terms and conditions page for buyers using the GSP? You even get a chance to do this at Checkout if you missed out earlier.

reallynicestamps · ‎08-09-2013

The buyer would have to return the broken item with tracking on their own nickle, where it would likely have the same fate as if the buyer were to keep it and have their money returned.

Well, sorta.

It is the practice of many sellers, in situations like this, to accept a picture of the damaged item. Paypal finds this acceptable. Remember that, even if there is an active Dispute, the seller can refund at any time. If PP decides the refund is inadequate (ususally because some sellers will only refund the purchase price and not the shipping cost) PP may continue the Dispute, refund the rest of the payment and go after the seller for it.

If the sellers refunds voluntarily there is no black mark on his selling account.

durian_noir · ‎08-10-2013

Yes, the parcel was apparently shipped by USPS somewhere and then Fedex delivered it.

I was going to go through a longer explanation for this, but I'll keep it simple. "Import charges" are the taxes (and duty, if applicable) due on the item plus various charges associated with customs clearance and collecting of the taxes. The GSP isn't charging you for the taxes. They just assess the taxes due and expect to collect them for you on behalf of the feds, to whom the taxes are remitted. Keep in mind that Canada Post charges you and me C$9.95 when Canada Border Services wants to collect taxes on a postal import.

And no, I do not agree with the "import" term. Anybody having been professionally in international trade knows that the exporting country, its companies, government, customs or whatever has nothing to with the importing countries duties. That is a prerogative of the importing country. That is why I call it a scam. They charge "import charges" for an item that has zero import tax or whatever. If it is not import duty, they should leave away the "import" and change it to something else. In some places using the term could be taken as impersonating a government office, which has legal ramifications. For what I see in Paypal the charged more than USD 11 for "import charge",

I must say that there are a lot of things going on at Ebay that wouldn't hold in international trading, and other's countries laws...

durian_noir · ‎08-10-2013

Hi, yes the seller refunded immediately after seeing the pictures. But now I cannot file at PP because of the "...transaction not finished yet". Maybe should go to support?

marnotom! · ‎08-11-2013

@durian_noir wrote:

And no, I do not agree with the "import" term. Anybody having been professionally in international trade knows that the exporting country, its companies, government, customs or whatever has nothing to with the importing countries duties. That is a prerogative of the importing country. That is why I call it a scam. They charge "import charges" for an item that has zero import tax or whatever. If it is not import duty, they should leave away the "import" and change it to something else. In some places using the term could be taken as impersonating a government office, which has legal ramifications. For what I see in Paypal the charged more than USD 11 for "import charge",

I must say that there are a lot of things going on at Ebay that wouldn't hold in international trading, and other's countries laws...

With all due respect, you're out to lunch on this. There are several reputable U.S. based online retailers such as L.L. Bean and Oriental Trading that charge Canadian buyers taxes on their items in a manner similar to the GSP. Canada Post used to own a service called Borderfree that does similar work for U.S. retailers as the GSP does for American eBay sellers:

http://www.borderfree.com/clients

It strikes me that you haven't gone through the GSP terms and conditions page for buyers that you presumably agreed to when you went through Checkout. If you look through that, you'll see that "import charges" involve more than just collecting taxes and duties.

http://pages.ebay.ca/shipping/globalshipping/buyer-tnc.html

Having said that, GSP listings for items below C$20 in value that I've checked lately don't have import charges now.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to say that the GSP is the greatest thing since sliced bread. What I am trying to say, though, is that what the GSP is doing isn't illegal or underhanded. If you read the ingredients on the can (i.e. the T&C page), you'll see that you're getting what it offers: a cocktail sausage that some may find delicious, but most find disgusting.

lady.stark · ‎08-13-2013

@marnotom! wrote:

If you read the ingredients on the can (i.e. the T&C page), you'll see that you're getting what it offers: a cocktail sausage that some may find delicious, but most find disgusting.

I like your analogy marno 😉

durian_noir · ‎08-15-2013

You are right, I haven't read those pages. Because bilateral trading or customs agreement may exist between two or a few countries (e.g. USA/Canada), etc., but these are not anything worldwide. It would almost be impossible to have the worlds major trading countries agree on this. We are still relying on international trade agreements, but customs is normally independent and works only in the country receiving the goods. It is a dream dreamt up by those who think they may make more money this way (Ebay, etc.), that has no international foundation. Perhaps with Canada, yes, but this is not the world.

durian_noir · ‎08-15-2013

Anyway, I don't know what is happening with Fedex. I assume they might be contacting Pitney Bowes, who should refund and then charge the seller???

I called Paypal and was told that they would refund the amount in advance, without knowing what would happen with Pitney Bowes - at least I was told they didn't know yet. Not sure, though, if that is the regular way such cases are handled. One thing is for sure - I'll never buy from a seller using the Global Shipping Program again. Not enough transparency and too much trouble if something goes wrong.

marnotom! · ‎08-15-2013

@durian_noir wrote:

You are right, I haven't read those pages. Because bilateral trading or customs agreement may exist between two or a few countries (e.g. USA/Canada), etc., but these are not anything worldwide. It would almost be impossible to have the worlds major trading countries agree on this. We are still relying on international trade agreements, but customs is normally independent and works only in the country receiving the goods. It is a dream dreamt up by those who think they may make more money this way (Ebay, etc.), that has no international foundation. Perhaps with Canada, yes, but this is not the world.

I'm not sure what all this has to do with the price of maple syrup, quite honestly. Trade agreements are about eliminating duties, not consumption (sales) taxes. After all, if you buy something from Canadian Tire that's made in Mexico on behalf of Trileaf Distribution, it's not tax-free even though it's manufactured in a NAFTA country.

Am I missing something that should be blindingly obvious to me in your argument?

I'll never buy from a seller using the Global Shipping Program again. Not enough transparency and too much trouble if something goes wrong.

Those are pretty much my concerns, as well. There seems to be a complete lack of accountability for when things go awry. I get the impression that the Global Shipping Center would like the seller to deal with any issues like this but the seller's hands are essentially tied as they never collected the funds that need to be returned, and the GSP is sold in such a manner that implies that any problems that should arise after the item reaches Kentucky shouldn't be the seller's concern. A read of the seller terms and conditions proves otherwise.

Anonymous · ‎08-18-2013

Are you kidding me? I would demand for a FULL REFUND not less one pretty penny plus the shipping costs to return the broken items! Period!!

marnotom! · ‎08-18-2013

@Anonymous wrote:
Are you kidding me? I would demand for a FULL REFUND not less one pretty penny plus the shipping costs to return the broken items! Period!!

About what am I kidding you? I don't think you understood my post or how the GSP works. The seller can't give the buyer a full refund because the seller didn't receive all of the buyer's payment in the first place. The balance has to come from the GSP.

femmefan1946 · ‎08-18-2013

but customs is normally independent and works only in the country receiving the goods.

And sometimes countries sub-contract that work to companies in the exporting country. No conspiracy, just making things flow easily. Canada has Trade Commissioners in almost every country in the world and setting up services like this is part of what they do.