Buyer keeps changing reason for return :

[kotonline]

I sold a Gibson 2007 Les Paul Guitar to a buyer in the USA, today I received an email that they were dissatisfied I didnt send the code for the lock on the case and wanted a new case. The code the lock was set at is the CODE to open and close it, after I explained that to them, they then said nowhere does it say its a USA Gibson guitar and the leather tag attached inside the case says Made in Canada and now want a full refund and then will send back the guitar and wanting me to pay return shipping.

The case for Gibson guitars are Made in Canada, however the guitar, based on the serial number and info included was Made in the USA. Any suggestions on how to respond? I have sent them a cut and paste of the info regarding the serial number but to no reply from them.

Thanks in advance

[rose-dee]

If things haven't gone too far, it might be worth phoning the buyer.  Sometimes where there is a misunderstanding or mis-communication, actually speaking personally can cool things down and get things sorted out a lot faster than emailing back and forth.  That is, as long as you can remain friendly, calm and professional.  

Do you have a phone number for your buyer on the eBay or Paypal transaction details?  I'd give it a try if emails haven't resolved the issues so far. 

[73rhc]

Could be buyer's remorse or he is trying to get a partial refund. Tread lightly. Do what you can to make him happy, to a certain extent. A phone call, as previously suggested, is a great idea. And do not refund before getting the guitar back, safe and sound.

Also, If I'm not mistaken, your listing says no return. I believe that in this case, the return shipping is the buyer's responsibility.

[kotonline]

Thanks for the suggestion on the phone call, I will try that. I do find emails tend to lose "perception" of what the issue is. I have no issues with returns as I think that was an oversight in the listing, if it was/is our error I would offer shipping back, if it is buyers remorse then I believe it would be up to them to cover return shipping.

Thanks again.

[73rhc]

If you offer returns. The shipping wil always be your responsibility. The minute the buyer claims "item not as described", it's you who will pay return shipping.

I would think about this if I were you. You'll be out the original cost plus the return cost.

[reallynicestamps]

"No returns' is a bugaboo of mine.

In the first place, no returns does not mean no refunds. The words are even spelled differently.

And of course, Paypal does guarantee refunds, so the seller's policy is meaningless. Worse it is unfriendly and offputting.

I don't think that eBay or Paypal requires the seller to refund the return shipping cost in most cases. These have traditionally been the unhappy buyer's responsibility.

I would be happy to see a written policy from either that contradicts my belief.

OP- Phone the buyer, as rose-dee suggests,  and try to work out the problem.

If that doesn't work, accept the return. Tell the seller how to package and ship the guitar. From your point of view, tracking is not necessary, but he will probably want it.

You can specify the service you would prefer him to use. Do you want it fast and expensive or slow and less expensive?

Since you have dimensions and weight from the original sale, you can tell him how much he will be paying at the Post Office. This also protects you against an unnecessarily expensive service.

Since he will be paying out at the onset, this should be acceptable.

Insurance covers the seller, but will not usually be paid out by USPS if the item is damaged due to bad packing.

Packing is more important than insurance, in other words.

You are going to be getting the guitar back. Accept this. Om mane padme ommmmmm.

So now you want to keep all your costs, and there will be costs, as low as possible. Don't pay any refund until you have the guitar, your guitar, and case back in your hands in the original condition.

You do NOT want this to go to a Dispute, because that would be even more expensive. Not in money, necessarily, but in Defects, feedback, Violations, Detailed Seller Ratings, etc.

Politely.--- Captain Malcolm Reynolds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZ3k2xA1Wcw

[73rhc]

"In the first place, no returns does not mean no refunds. The words are even spelled differently."

I don't think anyone alluded to this!

[pjcdn2005]

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@73rhc wrote:
If you offer returns. The shipping wil always be your responsibility. The minute the buyer claims "item not as described", it's you who will pay return shipping.

I would think about this if I were you. You'll be out the original cost plus the return cost.

---

If a buyer wants to return an item for buyers remorse, the seller pays return shipping only if their return policy says that they will.

If the buyer files a snad case, then the seller is responsible for return shipping regardless if they have a return policy or no return policy.

[pjcdn2005]

I don't think that eBay or Paypal requires the seller to refund the return shipping cost in most cases. These have traditionally been the unhappy buyer's responsibility.

I would be happy to see a written policy from either that contradicts my belief.

Paypal does not require the seller to pay return shipping costs, but if a case is filed through ebay, the MBG does state that the seller is required to pay return shipping for a not as described purchase.

I believe that I already posted the link for you the last time you commented about this but I'll post it again along with the written information. The info about return shipping is near the bottom of this post.

When an item doesn't match the listing description

If a buyer receives an item that doesn't match the listing description, the buyer needs to request a return from My eBay. The seller should address the buyer's concern and offer a solution, such as accepting a return, offering a replacement or refund. 

If the buyer doesn't receive a response or solution, or returns the item but doesn't receive a refund or replacement from the seller, the buyer can ask us to step in and help.

If asked to step in and help, we review the item description and any other information about the item that the buyer and seller provide. If we can't determine that the item matches the listing description, if the seller has already offered a return, or the seller's stated return window and policy applies, we may ask the buyer to return the item to the seller.

When an item is returned to the seller

• The buyer must return the item in the same condition in which it was received.

• The seller is required to accept the return at the same location specified in the listing.

• The cost of return shipping is the seller's responsibility. For return of items with a total cost of US$/C$750 or more, we require signature confirmation.

• The seller pays for any customs charges on the returned item.

[rose-dee]

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@pjcdn2005 wrote:

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@73rhc wrote:
If you offer returns. The shipping wil always be your responsibility. The minute the buyer claims "item not as described", it's you who will pay return shipping.

I would think about this if I were you. You'll be out the original cost plus the return cost.

---

If a buyer wants to return an item for buyers remorse, the seller pays return shipping only if their return policy says that they will.

If the buyer files a snad case, then the seller is responsible for return shipping regardless if they have a return policy or no return policy.

---

As I mentioned in another thread, my view is that the MBG has changed the playing field on returns/refunds. The problem is that eBay relies primarily on the buyer to determine what is a SNAD case and what isn't, and it will normally be almost impossible for a seller to prove the buyer is wrong.  

Any claim of SNAD means a refund, and return at the seller's expense.  However, what buyer will say they've just changed their mind (buyer's remorse) if they know they can get their money back and avoid paying for the item's return? EBay has ensured this is unlikely by blasting the MBG info-ads everywhere on the site, and I think sellers must now assume that buyers are going to wise to the distinction between SNAD=money back and $0 cost to buyer, or "buyer's remorse"=tough luck for buyer.  Sellers who now state "no returns" are going to have to hope buyers haven't seen those MBG ads. 

Even if the buyer is only half-right (i.e. the guitar was made in the U.S. but the case in Canada), I agree with 'reallynicestamps'  that the seller is better off either talking the problem out to the buyer's satisfaction or just having the guitar returned.  Personally, if I couldn't convince the buyer into a state of blissful satisfaction, I'd pay for the return of the instrument, and manage the service for the return (buy the label).  That way, at least there would still be some control over minimizing any further damage.  

[pjcdn2005]

Oops...I forgot to post the actual link.

http://pages.ebay.ca/help/policies/money-back-guarantee.html#description

[73rhc]

I stand corrected for the policy. As shown below the wording can be a little contradictory. But I don't agree that in the OP's case. The item is not as described.

The eBay Money Back Guarantee protects you in cases where an item is either not received or isn’t as described in the listing. It covers purchases paid with PayPal and most other electronic payment methods. The eBay Money Back Guarantee is not a product warranty.

The eBay Money Back Guarantee applies to virtually every item on www.ebay.ca. The only categories excluded are:

• Motors vehicles (which are already covered under the eBay Vehicle Protection program)
• Real estate
• Websites and businesses for sale
• Classified ads and services
• Some business equipment categories that may be covered by eBay Business Equipment Purchase Protection

The eBay Money Back Guarantee does not apply to websites other than www.ebay.ca.

Please note that, if return shipping is not payable by the seller in accordance with their return policy, the costs of returning the item are your responsibility.

Read the complete details about the eBay Money Back Guarantee

[pjcdn2005]

As I mentioned in another thread, my view is that the MBG has changed the playing field on returns/refunds. The problem is that eBay relies primarily on the buyer to determine what is a SNAD case and what isn't, and it will normally be almost impossible for a seller to prove the buyer is wrong.  

Any claim of SNAD means a refund, and return at the seller's expense.  However, what buyer will say they've just changed their mind (buyer's remorse) if they know they can get their money back and avoid paying for the item's return?

I agree that some buyers are going to claim a snad so that their return shipping is paid, regardless if it is true or not.  But I just had a return request and the buyer paid the return shipping so obviously there are some buyers who are going to be honest.

It doesn't bother me so much that ebay wants sellers to pay return shipping for a snad as that is what a good seller would do regardless, but what does bother me is the apparent lack of support when it is obvious that the item is not snad. Because of the small amount of unresolved seller complaints that we are allowed, that also makes sellers hesitate to fight against any claims.

Also, I've read of a few incidents on the U.S. boards about  buyers returning a different item than what was received and ebay's response has been 'that's the cost of doing business'   Of course there are certain costs that any online or b & m business has to expect but if I return the wrong item to Walmart or to an online store, I'm fairly sure that they are not going to refund me. 

[pjcdn2005]

Please note that, if return shipping is not payable by the seller in accordance with their return policy, the costs of returning the item are your responsibility.

I've mentioned before that there are some contradictory terms about the return shipping policy and yes, it is confusing. If you read the part of the mbg that I pasted, it doesn't mention the seller paying for return shipping until after the buyer has asked ebay 'to step in'. So does that mean that the buyer doesn't get their return shipping paid unless the buyer does escalate?? That was the impression that I got from one of the reps when I asked about it but that doesn't seem to be how it has been working. 

I think that when a buyer 'requests a return' for snad reasons, the info that comes up does state that the seller pays return shipping.  I don't know if both buyer and seller see that but it does seem to be the belief that snad = seller pays return shipping in all cases. 

Even if it was more blatant that a buyer had to escalate in order to receive paid return shipping, how many sellers are going to want the buyers to escalate and take the chance on having an unresolved case?

The whole subject makes my head hurt!

[73rhc]

Confusing to say the least. In the instance, in the photo, it would seem to say that the seller pay for shipping when snad. But then it goes further and gives reasons for who pays for return shipping. Ex. Item wrong size, shipping paid as per return policy?

[73rhc]

I'm starting to think that the less you describe your item, the better off you'll be under the MBG. It would be hard for a buyer to say item not as describe, when there is no description. Lol

[pjcdn2005]

They are just showing reasons for a return. The first 3 choices are reasons just for a return, not for a nad case. If a seller doesn't have a return policy and they request a return using one of those 3 choices, the seller can refuse the return.

If the buyer checks off one of the last 4 reasons for a return, then it is considered a nad return.

[pjcdn2005]

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@73rhc wrote:
I'm starting to think that the less you describe your item, the better off you'll be under the MBG. It would be hard for a buyer to say item not as describe, when there is no description. Lol

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lol...I know you're joking but I do think that a good description lessens the chance of a buyer filing a nad case because they know what they are getting. Also, if the description is detailed, the buyer might hesitate to out and out lie about a detail that is specified in the listing.  Plus, if the seller does want to fight it, information in the title and in the item specifics are supposedly taken into account.

[73rhc]

This is what I've been trying to say on another thread. I believe that the buyer cannot claim NAD just because the item doesn't fit. Or if he can, then it's the return seller's policy that takes precedence. And if the seller doesn't accept returns than it's up to the buyer to pay for return shipping, if a return is agreed upon.

[kotonline]

Wow, thank you everyone for some great feedback and links. It is a very technical mine field as a seller to try to satisfy all angles of an issue. This is a quick update :

I did contact buyer and was able to walk through how to verify the serial number of the guitar did in fact match the description and was made in the USA (Gibsons website)

I was able to show the case was what was in fact made in Canada and not the Guitar (a non issue for him)

The underlying issue is the combo to the lock - I asked him if the lock was in fact locked when he received it how was it able to be opened (I was polite and non condescending )

Ends up he forgot what the the combo was after he closed it, the good thing is the guitar was out of it .

My solution is I have offered to cover the cost of getting the lock reset at a locksmith which will be between $20-$30, much cheaper than all the alternatives and will hopefully pay dividends in customer service.

One thing I will be changing on all my listings is to offer refunds but have policy and process in place, I didnt realize my listings all had no refunds. I will at anytime accept full responsibility for my  errors and would never allow a Customer to pay for my error.

Thanks for everyone's suggestions