eBay

art-in-the-making · ‎11-11-2013

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-brothers-suing-ebay-over-cancelled-sneaker-sale-1.2421...

The case hasn't progressed to the point of arguing the specific merits.

In dispute at present is the right of Quebec residents to sue eBay in Quebec, essentially in contravention of the eBay user agreement, which would have suits tried in California.

So far two Quebec rulings have confirmed that eBay sellers are considered "consumers" and therefore are covered by the consumer protection provided in the Quebec Civil code.

interesting.

rose-dee · ‎11-14-2013

@art-in-the-making wrote:
... (or in response to) this case (now that Rose-dee has explained that it isn't really a "case" I'm just calling it a "case" cause I already forgot what it actually is 🙂 )

Actually, in English Canada, an application of this type is sometimes loosely referred to by lawyers as a case, but what I was trying to explain is that it isn't a full-blown courtroom case in the way most people think of legal cases, courtrooms, lawyers, witnesses (live testimony) and a jury, and it wasn't a trial on the evidence or merits of the case, but a consideration by the court of the narrow legal question of jurisdiction, so that the case itself can proceed.

In fact it appears to me from reading the judgment in the Quebec Court of Appeal that the facts and evidence in this matter (if it does go ahead) will be heard as what we in English Canada call a long chambers application or summary trial, but that's getting too far too specific. A 90-minute hearing with a 20-page maximum written submission by each party isn't a full trial, although (at least in the rest of Canada), it's always possible a judge, after reviewing the submissions, can order a formal trial.

Don't worry about referring to it here generically as a "case" -- no problem -- we all know now what we're discussing.

rose-dee · ‎11-14-2013

Well, here's an interesting sequel for anybody who considers this an important issue:

I decided to compare the current .ca and .com user agreements on eBay - wow, what a difference! On eBay.ca, the user agreement is rather mild-mannered and fairly generic as such agreements go. The stipulated legal venue is Ontario. Arbitration is offered as a mutually-agreed option.

On eBay.com, the tone is harsh (lots of ALL-CAPS paragraphs!), and the user agreement is clearly drafted to curtail legal disputes of any significant kind. By "checking the box", users are agreeing to essentially waive any right to legal claims in court (aside from Small Claims), and to have agreed to eBay's stipulated arbitration procedure in any dispute over $15,000.

Also, as has been mentioned in other discussion threads, by checking the box, you are waiving any right to class action suits.

For what it's worth, the law of Utah is stated as being the applicable law. I didn't see California anywhere, so I presume the Moko case must have been brought under a previous version of the .com user agreement.

I can only conclude that the current user agreement on eBay.com has been drafted in response to a flurry of lawsuits being brought against eBay.

Really, a word of advice to anybody registered on eBay.com (or perhaps even listing on eBay.com) - read and understand the user agreement, as you're forfeiting legal rights by "checking the box". This is even more problematic than obligatory legal jurisdiction.

recped · ‎11-14-2013

I decided to compare the current .ca and .com user agreements on eBay - wow, what a difference! On eBay.ca, the user agreement is rather mild-mannered and fairly generic as such agreements go. The stipulated legal venue is Ontario. Arbitration is offered as a mutually-agreed option.

On eBay.com, the tone is harsh (lots of ALL-CAPS paragraphs!), and the user agreement is clearly drafted to curtail legal disputes of any significant kind. By "checking the box", users are agreeing to essentially waive any right to legal claims in court (aside from Small Claims), and to have agreed to eBay's stipulated arbitration procedure in any dispute over $15,000.

My guess would be that eBay feels they don't need so many legal roadblocks here in Canada where civil suits for damages are much more difficult to win and generally speaking when/if won result in dramatically lower awards to plaintiffs.

Frivolous suits in the US can cost millions in legal fees, similar attempts here in Canada would get tossed at the first hearing.

"What else could I do? I had no trade so I became a peddler" - Lazarus Greenberg 1915
- answering Trolls is voluntary, my policy is not to participate.

i*m-still-here · ‎11-14-2013

@rose-dee wrote:

Really, a word of advice to anybody registered on eBay.com (or perhaps even listing on eBay.com) - read and understand the user agreement, as you're forfeiting legal rights by "checking the box". This is even more problematic than obligatory legal jurisdiction.

Sure, and then what?

Don't agree to it?

Is that even an option if you want to sell here?

rose-dee · ‎11-14-2013

@i*m-still-here wrote:
@rose-dee wrote:

Really, a word of advice to anybody registered on eBay.com (or perhaps even listing on eBay.com) - read and understand the user agreement, as you're forfeiting legal rights by "checking the box". This is even more problematic than obligatory legal jurisdiction.
Sure, and then what?

Don't agree to it?

Is that even an option if you want to sell here?

No, of course not -- just be aware of what you're agreeing to if you're on eBay.com (basically you're agreeing never to sue eBay for anything over $15K).

If you're registered on .ca, the user agreement really isn't a problem, but I don't know if the .com user agreement applies solely on the basis of where the listing is posted. Anybody know for sure?

'recped' is right in his conclusions about the reasons for the difference between the user agreements on eBay.ca and .com -- this seemed obvious to me, even though I didn't say it. Americans are litigation-happy, and they get truckloads of money if they win. Courts here take a dim view of any suit that doesn't have a strong reason to be brought before them.

cumos55 · ‎11-14-2013

Something happened over the past 12 months with respect to class action suits in the US.... and their relevance... or whether they be allowed. This was discussed on eBay.com

It was at that time that eBay very directly changed its User Agreement... with the understanding that if there is a problem... no more class action suits... and only a single person filing suit against eBay...

That is when eBay stated everything was to be filed through Utah

This what I remember... an may be only partly correct.

cumos55 · ‎11-14-2013

From an Ina Steiner report on eCommerce Bytes -----

eBay has faced its share of class action lawsuits, but it's now trying to prohibit its users from filing such lawsuits. eBay updated its User Agreement and Privacy Policy, which are effective immediately for new users and take effect on October 10, 2012 for current users. And in the new agreement that users must adhere to in order to continue using the site, eBay requires them to submit to arbitration and only allows users to pursue claims and seek relief on an individual basis.

In a post on the eBay Announcement board, eBay outlined the key updates to the eBay User Agreement, including provisions relating to eBay's contacts with its members; cross border trade and fees; as well as updates to the Limitations of Liability Section.

eBay also updated provisions governing how disputes between eBay and its users are resolved.

----------

This was not extended to Canada.....

anguscoinshop · ‎11-15-2013

at the end it just does not matter what ebay puts into there user agreement. the law of the land will always prevail.

it is the only way to have fair justice for all.

reallynicestamps · ‎11-15-2013

angus:

Well, yes. But the law of the land for civil contracts allows a lot of very quirky agreements that may not be the norm.

rose-dee as a paralegal would probably have some tales to tell, if she were not constrained by confidentiality considerations.

Hey, Rose, you, me, a couple of bottles of pino grigio, let's dish, girlfriend!

rose-dee · ‎11-15-2013

@reallynicestamps wrote:
1) rose-dee as a paralegal would probably have some tales to tell, if she were not constrained by confidentiality considerations.

2) Hey, Rose, you, me, a couple of bottles of pino grigio, let's dish, girlfriend!

1) I have no such constraints, since I was never a member of the bar, and am now retired from that nonsense a few years ago. However, I avoid actually naming names. The only constraint I have now is a certain respect for propriety. There are tales, believe me...but I spent nearly 15 years of my working life in the arts, which I considered my true métier. Just got tired of eating spaghetti and living in dumps.

2) Love to!! Too bad you'll have missed me in Victoria -- I left 2 years ago and have never looked back. I don't mean to denigrate the place, it has its charms (mostly scenery-related), but it was a tough place to make friends, an expensive place to live, and I really didn't like the weather (I'm an Ontario girl originally). I never did fully adapt to the idea of having rain for a month at a time, although OMG, Victoria is better than Vancouver.

I found that people who had lived in Victoria for a few years tended to be rather xenophobic about 'outsiders' moving in, even if almost everybody does come from somewhere else. There's a real snob set there. The only people I found really welcoming were aboriginal people I met. I was never able to account for the weird vibes of the place, although I do admit I enjoyed the outdoors. What do I miss? Maybe the big fir trees, I used to love those, and seeing the mountain peaks. But everything else (and then some) I have here in Nova Scotia -- huge old deciduous trees (oaks all over the place), the ocean, reasonably-sized mountains, fresh air, space to roam, exceptionally friendly people, and lots of history everywhere. We live in a lovely, quirky 200-year old house on 3 acres in a zone 6b next to an ocean bay - something we couldn't have dreamed of having anywhere else. Yes, I did say zone 6b (just one below where we lived on Vancouver Island). Apples, peaches, pears and plums grow beautifully here -- not too shabby.

Now I'm way off topic, sorry!