A thief among us

[andrew181266]

To ebay and paypal

I am writing this letter in regards to the disappointment in a recent resolution and your inability to stem the ability of a thief. This stems from the incident involving one of your buyers. I completed my sale and sent the item just like any other time I have sold 46 watches with your company. After I sent the item the thief started to demand his money back, knowing that I showed the parcel paper and all information associated to it. The manner in which he spoke was ignorant, and rude and I felt that any further interaction would be not good for my nerves or any future conversation. I advised the thief that his product would be shipped in 6-10 business days and he would get his product. He immediately kept bothering as opposed to waiting if he would actually get the product. the thief said that without a tracking number he would not get the product. I advised him that as per Canada post, the product had the same chance arriving in South Africa as it did in a postal box in Canada. Our communication stop due to his rudeness and pushiness. At the time I did not know he was a thief, otherwise I would not have kept associating with him. He continued the process to get the his money back, even before the product had a chance of getting to his postal box. I am writing this letter for a variety of reasons:

• To prevent other sellers from dealing with this thief
• To get my product back from this thief, it was sent through pay pal utilizing the proper procedures that I have used in the past
• To have my good standing placed back on ebay, this thief after taking my product still put a bad feedback on my standing
• To ensure this thief knows he can’t do this again

I was advised by paypal that the matter had till the 21st of November to make a decision and to ask me additional information which they did not. If he is not a thief he will send my product back, which I hope you follow up for me. I was advised not to sell to south Africa because of this behaviour, it saddens me that you have allowed it to perpetuate.

This thief needs to stop and I ask that you do everything in your power to prevent him from doing it again. You can see by my history, that I have always been fair, and have always worked with buyers in the past. Sadly, it is very difficult to deal with a thief and I hope you see my frustration in dealing with a criminal, in a business like ebay and paypal that prides yourself in so much more.

Lastly if you cannot help me, point me to the next level of resolution, or if you have an ombudsman.

Thank You

Andrew MacDonald

[craftycanadianarts]

So trying to decode what you said....

Customer bought item and before you shipped asked for a refund.....Why did you not at that point just cancel the transaction?  No muss no fuss.

Then to make it worse you sent an item worth more then $100.00 off without tracking even though you knew the customer was a problem.  Why would you do that especially overseas? 

The buyer/seller protection works fine if you send a package with tracking.

It seems pretty obvious the buyer had an immediate oh oh moment and just did not want the item.  There is nothing there that suggests anything in this sale was handled correctly by you, you cannot blame ebay or paypal there are plenty of information pages on how to sell and ship an item that you have sold, as well on how to cancel a transaction.  Sorry you lost the item and the money but om this case to be honest the blame is all on you.

[craftycanadianarts]

And you have had two negatives regarding the same thing. on 6 sales this year, even one would have caused you rating and placing to fall.

[reallynicestamps]

You sold a watch

The buyer demanded a refund on the basis that he had not received the watch.

Which he hadn't because you had not shipped it.

Which is when you should have refunded because, rude or not, he did not have the watch he paid for nor had you shipped it.

And then -- you shipped it.

Without a tracking number?

Uh huh.

Not perhaps the wisest move?

He has opened a Paypal (?) dispute, since eBay's last estimated date for delivery has not passed.

PP is not completing the Dispute until that date.

If you used tracked shipping, you will win the Dispute with them and eBay will agree with them.

Although they are no longer the same company, they still cooperate.

But frankly, I'd head over to the ER and deal with that self-inflicted gunshot wound to your foot.

[5274646]

I don't post often but I can't help not to do so after reading replies other posters have left you...lol

Customer bought item and before you shipped asked for a refund.....Why did you not at that point just cancel the transaction?  No muss no fuss.

The buyer demanded a refund on the basis that he had not received the watch.

Which he hadn't because you had not shipped it.

From what I gathered, you completed your sale and "sent the item just like any other time" and then the buyer started demanding his money back AFTER you have sent out the item.  JUST WANTED TO CLEAR THAT FOR YOU (but of course, not like that was any help with your situation)

But I do have to agree, that it wasn't a wise move to have sent something of value to (was it?) South Africa...without tracking...or to anywhere else without it.  As a buyer, I'd like to have tracking for everything I purchase so I can be on the lookout for it...especially when it's of high value.  As a seller, its like another level of insurance.  Chances are if something you sent had no tracking number (and no insurance) attached to it and the recipient claims they did not receive it within the allotted time frame...eBay and PayPal will most likely side with the buyer.

Keep us posted...but we pretty much have an idea how it will end.  Good luck Andrew!

[ypdc_dennis]

---

@andrew181266 wrote:

To ebay and paypal

---

These are buyer and seller forums -- you are not talking to either eBay or to PayPal.

...

One other option: Go to the sales transaction information there should be is a Report buyer option in the More actions menu.

...

Thieves have been using the online marketplace websites since day one (both as buyers and sellers).

-..-

[pjcdn2005]

Which Canada Post service did you use to send the watch?   You said that the buyer was upset that you didn’t give them a tracking number so does that mean the service didnt have tracking?   Many of us in Canada will send some items without tracking without ant problems but we realize that there is a risk when we do that because the only way that eBay can know that a buyer has received an item is if delivery confirmation shows the package was delivered to that address. If that package did not have tracking then how do you or eBay know whether or not the watch was received?  It’s possible that the buyer is lying but it’s also possible that the package got lost.  You expect that ebay should consider the buyer as a thief yet but what proof do you have that he has the watch? The MBG is quite clear that a buyer will win an item not received claim if there is no proof of delivery. 

I realize that if the buyer was abrasive early on that it could indicate they are going to cause trouble later on and perhaps that’s true.  I do know that the SA Post office does not have a good reputation so it’s entirely possible that non tracked packages are less likely to arrive and that the buyer was concerned because of past experiences. I really don’t know what happened  I am just trying to show that there may be another side to the story

[femmefan1946]

I checked the Canada Post International Packages site

https://www.canadapost.ca/cpotools/apps/far/business/findARate?execution=e1s2

and the only service that gives tracking to South Africa is Priority Worldwide at over $150.

There are two solutions that I can see, for future use.

• Don't ship worldwide. Sellers can Block bidders from individual countries, right on the Sell Your Item form.
• Use Priority Worldwide with Calculated Shipping and let the customer decide whether the total price (selling+shipping) is worthwhile.

If the OP sent anything to the buyer, without tracking he will lose an Item Not Received Dispute with either eBay or Paypal.

While self-insurance covers most problems that arise, it must be used appropriately.

In this case, with a low number of sales, high fraud category, a questionable FB record, and frankly a short fuse, it is not appropriate for this seller.

I wonder if any of the third party insurers, like shipinsurance cover mailing to RSA? I've heard posters who use the service note that if shipinsurance won't insure shipments to a country they Block them as purchasers.

[5274646]

Lol..I've thought about that too...that maybe the buyer was genuinely concerned that they won't get their untracked package because they are familiar with how their postal system works in South Africa.

But as a buyer...if I have had past experiences where my expected package have toured off course...I would do my best to make sure and ask if tracking comes with shipping and if it didn't...definitely request for it...even if it means paying extra...just for the piece of mind...it just didn't seem fair to have opened a case before the estimated delivery time frame has passed...if it even started lol

Like you said....there may be another side to the story...that I agree...maybe not fair to call the buyer a thief from the get-go...

...but I also understand the seller's frustration...because in the end...regardless of the buyer's real intentions...the seller is pretty much screwed if they send a package off without tracking and the buyer claims they didn't receive it...that I agree too.

Kudos to you for standing neutral...

[amcdc79]

Please do yourself a favour and block all the countries where shipping w/tracking is expensive. Since your products are pricey, please start using tracking for every order. There are reasons why many of us do not ship to every country, as there are buyers out there who know the cost for us to ship, and take advantage of the situation.

Good luck selling, I hope you have learned a lesson, and may your future sales be successful.

[Anonymous]

ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS use tracking number!!

[rander3127]

Many Ebay sellers exclude swaths of the World because of rampant scams and thievery. This is unfortunate for the honest buyers in those feral places, but it's up to them to help develop cultures who don't steal as a way of life. Additionally, some countries have terrible custom's processing (Israel,for example) that can add a month to delivery times.