Buyers can now give you a defect without reason!

I`m currently experiencing an interesting problem, which others may find interesting.

 

I`m currently selling some antiques from the estate of a former collector client of mine who died in 2012.   I bought a number of pieces from the auction of his estate items following his death.

 

I then put many of them on ebay.    In the ebay listing, I stated that I had bought these from the estate of the above collector.    I gave the collector`s name, and the name of the collector`s collection, and mentioned he`had died in 2012, and I had purchased the subject item from his estate.

 

I`ve sold a number of these items to very happy clients via unreserved auction - some brought good prices, and some sold for much less than I expected - I figured thats the way auctions work, and I honored all the winning bids.    Then I had one oversea`s small time ebay reseller win three of my items.    He received them and I didn`t hear anything from the guy, so I assumed he was happy.    As it turned out he relisted the same items on ebay, with buy it now prices up to 5 times what he had won my auctions for.    Not surprisingly he was unsuccessful reselling the items.

 

After some time, and without warning, he opened 3 item not as described complaints.    He did not claim there was anything wrong with the items condition, or authenticity.     He claimed that I didn`t buy them from the person I said I did!   As a result I instantly got 3 defects.   He did this without asking to see the receipts I have.

 

Rather than risk negative feedback, I agreed to this guy returning my items.   

 

I also showed him the receipts.

 

This makes a mockery of auction sales.   For example, if I took my items back to the auction I bought them from, and said I wanted to return them because I didn`t like them, I`d get laughed out of the building. 

 

I`ve got receipts which clearly show I bought these items exactly where I said I did. 

 

I contacted ebay to see if I could get these three defects removed, on the grounds that the complaint is ridiculous.

 

Ebay told me the buyer does not need to support their claims - they can make a claim about anything they like - for example, the colour of the text in the font you use in your ebay lsiting, or they can simply say they don`t think the owner is the legal owner.   They don`t need to provide any evidence - all they have to do is make an allegation.     The seller will get a defect in each case.

 

Even though I have receipts to support the truth of my statement about where I bought my items.   And even though its obvious this buyer decided to return his purchase because he was unable to resell them on ebay for several times more than he paid me, ebay will not remove the 3 defects.


Ebay does not require the buyer to have any evidence to support his claim.

 

And to make it even worse, I now have to pay his return mail fees too.   Even though I have said I will not voluntarily pay the return mail cost, ebay is going to reimburse the buyer themselves, which means they will take the money from me against my wishes.

 

This means I can buy your item on ebay, and try to resell it on ebay.   If I am successful, I keep the profit.    If I am unsuccessful I can open a return claim on ebay, and return the item to you for a complete refund of everything I paid you - item cost, mail cost, and the return mail cost!

 

This is crazy! 

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Buyers can now give you a defect without reason!

smid338
Community Member

Ebays response is a little curious to say the least, I suppose the lesson is to only include minimum details in a listing so chancers have less to complain about. Thanks for posting that, another ebay oddity to keep in mind when selling.

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Buyers can now give you a defect without reason!

"Rather than risk negative feedback, I agreed to this guy returning my items.   "

 

I am sorry to say but that was a mistake. 

 

You were right and the buyer was wrong.  Why give in without a fight?

 

 

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Buyers can now give you a defect without reason!


@avionsunantiques wrote:

 Ebay told me the buyer does not need to support their claims

 

  They don`t need to provide any evidence - all they have to do is make an allegation.    

 

The seller will get a defect in each case.

 



I find this very curious to say the least. Flat out, everything in the above statement is patently FALSE.

 

I'm not sure what is going on here.

 

You need to contact Ebay again, get a supervisor on the phone and dig into this more deeply. I would keep calling, by the way, until you get a call center in the USA. This wouldn't be the first time some CSR in one of the Asian call centers(if in fact this is who was involved) told someone some ludicrous story and completely mishandled a situation. It happens all too frequently I'm afraid. I've had people in those Asian calll centers flat out lie to me, even had one give me a fake name and employee ID number (before I knew that no such thing existed or that if it did it is internal and would never be given to an outside person), and a ficticious reference number that, upon calling back, didn't exist.

 

There is definitely something rotten in the state of Denmark here.

 

thD

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Buyers can now give you a defect without reason!


@pierrelebel wrote:

 

You were right and the buyer was wrong.  Why give in without a fight?

 


With the MBG programme now in place, wouldn't this have resulted however in eBay refunding the buyer (unilaterally) in any event and the OP having no control over the return process?  Better a defect than a defect and an open case and negative FB.  I understand why the OP did what he did. 

 

This whole thing stinks.  Every time eBay comes up with a new programme, ostensibly to protect buyers, it opens new loopholes for irresponsible or nefarious behaviour.   As long as the MBG is in place, and a claim of "not as described" can mean virtually anything (and be unsubstantiated to boot), there isn't much a seller can do but swallow hard and try to minimize the damage.  

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Buyers can now give you a defect without reason!

"there isn't much a seller can do but swallow hard and try to minimize the damage.  "

 

I am sorry but do not see it that way.

 

http://pages.ebay.ca/help/sell/item-not-as-described.html

 

Provide documentation that the item was properly described

 

If you or the buyer has asked us to step in and help with a return request for the reason that the item wasn't as described in the listing, and you can show that you properly described an item, the return request can be closed. For example: 

  • The buyer states that the item is used, not new, and the listing clearly describes the item as used.

  • You correctly described a flaw in the item.

  • The listing properly describes the item, but the buyer didn't want the item after receiving it.

  • The listing properly describes the item, but the item didn't meet the buyer's expectations.

  • The item has minor scratches and you listed it as used.

Message 6 of 40
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Buyers can now give you a defect without reason!

I sold a radio to a guy in Texas - he emailed me and said the volume was low. He sent it back and I refunded him including the postage. This was all done between the two of us outside of eBay. He did not use the dispute process and even bought another radio.

 

I applied to eBay to get my fees back and was immediately issued a defect.

 

This is unfair and crazy.

 

When I called eBay customer service about it - the guy on the other end of the line could care less. He said the computer was programed to do it and he could not change it. I told him I figured he could it - was just that he was not going to do it. His responce was - a very smug - "Yep"

 

This is the was eBay treats it's customers. We sellers are the customers - you know the ones that pay eBay money. The buyers don't - we do. But eBay still thinks the buyers are the customers.

 

Go figure.

__________________________________________________________

Old enough to know better. Young enough to do it again. Crazy enough to try
Message 7 of 40
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Buyers can now give you a defect without reason!

I suggest you send details of this transaction and the "default" to raphael@ebay.com

 

Give him a few days (in addition to the weekend) to look into it and fix the problem.

 

Good Luck

Message 8 of 40
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Buyers can now give you a defect without reason!

Thanks Pierre I did that - it will be interesting to see what if anything happens.

 

__________________________________________________________

Old enough to know better. Young enough to do it again. Crazy enough to try
Message 9 of 40
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Buyers can now give you a defect without reason!

I`d like to thank everyone for their thoughts.

 

I have called Ebay on this matter - I want to tell you how many times, but it is so many I can`t tell with any reliability.    I phoned 3 times on the first day and got three different Ebay representatives.

 

I`ve called multiiple times over the subsequent days.

 

In each case I called for guidance as to how I should proceed after each new piece of this story became known to me.

 

In each case I got the US call center (No uninformed Asian CSR`s in this case)

 

The first advise was to contact the buyer and see what I could give him to address his concerns about where I bought the items.     In that case it has the inventory sticker of a well known dealer (name not included here in case it causes ebay to pull this post).    There were a number of items in the estate auction from this dealer, and I contacted the dealer personally to confirm the authenticity of his inventory labels before I bought them at the estate auction (this dealer also uses ebay, and has been a member for 16 years and 6 months - my communication with him was via the ebay message system).    The buyer claimed there was no evidence in the listing to confirm the authenticity of the dealer`s inventory sticker or where I bought the items.     So I contacted the buyer and asked him what he would like to address his concerns.     He said he diidn`t want anything, other than to return the items. 

 

I then called ebay again for guidance.

 

This time I was advised not to escalate it - I`ve made that mistake previously, and know their reaction is most likely to be automatic (probably made in Asia) return, rather than reasoned.    

 

I was also told that how I handled this complaint, would determine if the defects could be removed, and I was told if I kindly accepted the items back for a full refund I would be more likely to get the defects removed  later.     I followed that advice.

 

I told the buyer he could return the items (I note it was well after the 7 day no questions asked return period required by ebay).

 

He then told me he had mailed the items back.   Then he also demanded the return mail cost.   I felt that was going too far, so I said if I had done anything wrong, i would pay the return cost, but in this case, there was no error.    He refused that argument.    I then gave him the contact information for the dealer who`se inventory sticker is on the base of this item so he could confirm the authenticiy of the inventory sticker (remember there is no dispute about the authenticity or condition of the item itself),    I also gave him a copy of my auction purchase receipt (which also confirms the provenance of the dealer just mentioned).

 

He then stated that if I did not pay his return mail cost he would give me negative feedback.    This has not happened yet, as the item is still in the return mail phase.    I again phoned ebay for advise, and was told that such negative feedback would be removed if given (time will tell on that one).

 

After wondering why the buyer wouldn`t accept the proof I`d provided, I decided to look into his prior activity on ebay, and found that following his purchase from me, he`d had these items listed on his own ebay site for sale at much higher prices.

 

At that time it all made sense, the buyer filed a fraudulent item not as described complaint to enable him to return items he had been unable to resell at a profit.

 

I then phoned ebay again to see what my options were.    At that time I felt I had a strong case for defect removal (at the very least).   The CSR was in the US (is not an Asian Call Center).   He heard everything I said, and told me the defects would not be removed.   He said it doesn`t matter what evidence I produce to prove statements about where I bought the item or who owned it before me.   He told me the buyer does not need to provided any proof to support their allegation.   The buyer can make any unsupported allegation he or she chooses, and you will get a defect that can not be removed!    The only allegation the buyer can make that will be unsuccessful is if he claims the same thing you said.   For example is you said the item is used, and the buyers complains it is used, then that defect can be removed.   However if you say the item is new (and it is new), but the buyer says is it used.   The buyer will win, without evidence, and despite any evidence you may have to prove it is new, and the defect will stand.

 

The defect issue is the main problem for me as I am top rated and the 20% discount is important to me, as my ebay costs are usually about $2000 per month.    Thats $4000 per year in saving, so I will sometimes accept items back when there is no reason, just to protect that $4000 annual figure.

 

When you add in the return selling fees part, this defect policy becomes something really bad for sellers.

Message 10 of 40
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Buyers can now give you a defect without reason!

Hi, in reply to the idea of providing documents to win a properly described case, my experience is there is some sort of dollar threshold to get an actual person to look at the dispute, otherwise its just automatic for ebay to rule on a return.

 

 

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Buyers can now give you a defect without reason!

smid338
Community Member

Looked back to see if any resolution had been reached and realised i'm being logged into Canada's ebay, probably also explains why none of my items are showing and the user id's are so unfamiliar. Only seems to happen with my forum id as seller id logs on to UK, yet another ebay quirk.

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Buyers can now give you a defect without reason!

"But eBay still thinks the buyers are the customers."

 

Sellers and Buyers are both ebay customers.

 

Without buyers, neither sellers, nor ebay make money.

 

 

"This was all done between the two of us outside of eBay."

 

How does ebay know you are not just trying to scam them if you did it outside the system?

Message 13 of 40
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Buyers can now give you a defect without reason!

Your first question - how do you figure buyers are eBays customers when the only money eBay receives is from sellers. Customers are those people who give you money directly.

 

Second question - because I fully refunded all of his money using PayPal which eBay can check and further, eBay can contact the buyer any time they please.

__________________________________________________________

Old enough to know better. Young enough to do it again. Crazy enough to try
Message 14 of 40
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Buyers can now give you a defect without reason!

First point - Who do Buyers set up an account with - sellers, or ebay?

 

Of course ebay is going to take care of buyers - if they don't, the buyers will go elsewhere.

 

 

Second point - Your case is diminished when you don't follow the established protocols. 

 

 

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Buyers can now give you a defect without reason!

ross, what reason did you check off when you did the cancellation?

Message 16 of 40
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Buyers can now give you a defect without reason!

You need to report this buyer immediately for misuse of the MBG. He was PO'd he could not sell them for mega bucks. Put that in your report to Ebay as well.  Also report the buyer for extortion.

 

Keep all the emails from the buyer.

Message 17 of 40
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Buyers can now give you a defect without reason!

I checked off mutal cancellation. Then what I think happened is that they sent something to the buyer and he checked off not as described and he told me that was the only option that he had available.

__________________________________________________________

Old enough to know better. Young enough to do it again. Crazy enough to try
Message 18 of 40
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Buyers can now give you a defect without reason!

 


@mater721 wrote:

First point - Who do Buyers set up an account with - sellers, or ebay?

 

Of course ebay is going to take care of buyers - if they don't, the buyers will go elsewhere.

 

 

Second point - Your case is diminished when you don't follow the established protocols. 

 

 


 

1. - Yr off the point - of course the buyers are important but they are noteBays customers. Customers are those who give the seller either money or service for a product. Sellers give eBay money for provding a third party service thus they are eBays customers.

 

2 - It is not a case - that's the point of the second part. They buyer and I wrapped up the return and refund without eBay - exactly where does it say we have do it through eBay? If I had not requested the return of fees, I would not have got the defect. So I ask for my fees back and the computer kicks me out a defect. Do you really think that is fair?

 

It's the ghost in the machine. They can't program for all scenarios.

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Old enough to know better. Young enough to do it again. Crazy enough to try
Message 19 of 40
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Buyers can now give you a defect without reason!

I wonder if that's new. I didn't know that the buyer would indicate the reason in a mutual.  Anyway, you got a defect because he said it wasn't as described even though he didn't file a dispute. If you hadn't asked for a cancellation, the refund by itself would still have ended up in a defect.  That can be frustrating.

 

 

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