eBay

gspencer1014 · ‎02-26-2022

So I am a Canadian seller as a hobby for 5 plus years, and always been Top-rated with 100% feedback. I sold a jersey to a buyer in the US in early January. It was only worth $30 so I did not get tracking and sent it by Canada Post USA Small Packet. I know I am taking a chance by not sending with tracking, but considering I mostly sell smaller cheaper collectibles, I don't worry about it and once every few months have to refund an INR. I take it as the cost of doing business, as a $10 item probably isn't going to sell as easily, or at all, if it has $18 for tracked shipping, when I can ship it untracked for $3 and then make it sell faster.

Two or so weeks later the buyer said the jersey never arrived and immediately opened up an INR case as soon as he could. Which is fine, it happens every now and then. I immediatley message the buyer and tell him that Canada Post has been very slow recently, and that it will arrive, but it may take another two weeks. I asked in my message if the buyer could close the case, and just message me directly in a couple weeks if it didn't ever arrive. The buyer closes the case and all is well. Now I think that I believe I can refund him when I choose after a few weeks, as he has no further recourse with eBay.

About a week later I get a message from the buyer saying it still hasn't arrived. I tell him to kindly wait another week and then I would promptly refund him. Never heard another thing from him or eBay.

February 21st I check my Seller Standards as I always do after the 20th, and see that I have a defect for this transacation, as an escalated case on February 11th. I also see that the buyer has been refunded the entire cost of the item and shipping.

I contact eBay customer service, and they tell me that becasue I said in my message to the buyer that I would refund him, I had to and they did on my behalf. Which I don't believe is fair. They never sent me a message to tell me that it was being escalated, or never even told me afterwards. And as per my message to the buyer, I was fully willing to refund on my own once I had given up hope of it being lost (which I've only ever had happen once over thousnads of transactions. Always just slow.) I also didn't believe that anything said in an eBay mesage was binding. Ebay refunded him before my suggested added two weeks anyways. I got the defect removed, but they said they would not give me the cost of the item back.

I directly quoted the INR policy in my messages to CS, which says directly "It's important to make sure you're certain you want to cancel a request, as you won't be able to re-open a case once it's been closed." I told CS that a case can't be re-opened or appealed if it was closed by the buyer in the seller's favour. I directly quoted eBay policy as available on ebay.ca

Is this some new policy I wasn't aware of? Or is this just a blatant misinterpretaion/misuse of ebay policy by the CS rep who the buyer contacted? Any help is appreciated. I tried to explain my case on the phone and via email to multiple CS reps. One on the phone said that I would get refunded, but after I contacted the specialty team via email they said that I wouldn't. At this point I don't think I can ever get the money back, but I would just like to learn for the next time this happens.

byto253 · ‎02-26-2022

As you have no confirmation that the item was received I do not see how you would ever get refunded. The best would be to not have a strike on your account, as the buyer closed the initial case and you were not informed of the escalation.

The experienced vets on this board recommend that if it is an important matter to contact eBay by chat or social media as those are manned by eBay employees and the phones are contractors who do not have the authority or as much knowledge as the contract phone reps.

As an aside, have you looked into chitchats, as they opened in Ottawa last year. There in one on Collonnade Rd, and the closest branch to Russel would be on Blackwell St, Ottawa near Innes and St. Laurent. Probably about 20 to 25 minutes away from you but may be handy if you are going in to town or Costco, etc. or have enough packages to make it worth the trip. You can send light package for +- $6 tracked by their regular service and it gets there within a week most of the time.

reallynicestamps · ‎02-26-2022

I asked in my message if the buyer could close the case, and just message me directly in a couple weeks if it didn't ever arrive....message from the buyer saying it still hasn't arrived. I tell him to kindly wait another week and then I would promptly refund him.

I am sure you meant well, but those messages are the kind that would make me as a buyer be very suspicious.

Especially the second request for another wait.

The buyer expected two weeks for delivery. You were asking them to wait some five weeks.

I got the defect removed, but they said they would not give me the cost of the item back.

The defect removal was worth more than the lost payment.

I've had queries about slow delivery, and asked for a few more days (note weeks) usually until the next Friday or Monday. Most buyers are fine with a few days.

But when the buyer claims Undelivered, you are, as you said, taking a chance. You have to have enough insurance money in the Cookie Jar, to afford the odd loss.

Most retailers would put losses like this at one percent of sales. If you have had 10 sales and one loss, it really stings until the next 90 go smoothly.

Basically, the buyer was in the right.

The purchase did not get delivered in the window promised (by eBay not you) and the Money Back Guarantee promises her a refund, whether you volunteer it or eBay forces it.

Remember that in addition to eBay's MBG, the buyer is protected by Paypal's Buyer Protection policy (if PP was used) and the chargeback program of her credit card. Those start on Payment and can run for six months.

gspencer1014 · ‎02-26-2022

I am well aware of the eBay MBG, but I thought that ended when the buyer closed the case in my favour. So I thought after that point, eBay could no longer force a refund. And I would have issued the refund after the full 2 weeks. I didn’t think eBay could force a refund after the case was closed by the buyer. Yes PP or a CC could, but this was done entirely though eBay.

As a percentage of total sales, I have probably had less than 1% refunded for lost or damaged items. I do just consider that a cost of doing business. I have had good success with asking buyers to wait two weeks, because unfortunately as I’m sure you’re aware, Canada Post lettermail or small Packet air have been taking up to a month, sometimes 5 weeks, even though eBay says it takes 2. They have almost always gotten there, albeit late, except for this one.

And I know my message asking for another 2 weeks may make a buyer suspicious, but pretty much every buyer who’s enquired about late delivery has been understanding and agreed. And the item did arrive by then.

gspencer1014 · ‎02-26-2022

I know I don’t have confirmation of delivery, but I thought a buyer couldn’t appeal or escalate a case that they had already closed in the sellers favour. Perhaps I’m incorrect, but that’s what I have been told by eBay as a buyer, and all I could find in eBay Policy.

Also I am in Russell MB, not Ontario, so I almost always just use CP labels or regular counter service.

marnotom! · ‎02-27-2022

@gspencer1014 wrote:
I know I don’t have confirmation of delivery, but I thought a buyer couldn’t appeal or escalate a case that they had already closed in the sellers favour. Perhaps I’m incorrect, but that’s what I have been told by eBay as a buyer, and all I could find in eBay Policy.

Maybe this is part of it. eBay didn't close the case in the seller's favour. The buyer supposedly closed the case but there wasn't anything found in the seller's favour because of the absence of confirmation of delivery.

Your initial post doesn't give us much idea of what happened when. You said that documentation showed that the case was escalated February 11. When did the buyer "close" the case?

gspencer1014 · ‎02-27-2022

The case was opened by the buyer on Jan 29th. After I messaged him, he closed it in my favour the same day. I got the typical message from eBay saying “Thank you for working with the buyer to resolve the issue”. I told him to wait two weeks.

He messages a week later saying it doesn’t arrive. I asked kindly to wait the full two weeks. Never hear anything back

Feb 21st I check my seller standards and see that the case was escalated on Feb 11, buyer got refunded and I got a defect. EBay never messaged to say that it was escalated or that I got a defect. Ever. My issue is that I didn’t think a buyer could appeal or escalate a case that THEY had closed. EBay didn’t close it, they did. It clearly says on the MBG policy that you can’t do that. That a case can’t be reopened if the buyer closes it.

Am I missing something or did the buyer work with CS to go above and beyond policy to get a refund?

marnotom! · ‎02-27-2022

Hmm. Okay, let's try this hypothesis, then.

Perhaps a request and a case are different things? When it's only the seller and the buyer hashing things out, it's considered to be a "request." When a request is escalated and eBay has to "step in," as they put it, it becomes a case. Your buyer cancelled their request; it hadn't reached the case stage. Perhaps requests can be resurrected in order to become cases? Cases can't be reopened, but requests can be revisited?

I've checked the .com boards to see if there's any discussion about a possible distinction, and it wasn't very edifying.

gspencer1014 · ‎02-27-2022

As far as I know they’re the same thing. On the buyers end they call it a request, but the seller sees it as a case

marnotom! · ‎02-27-2022

Aha. Found this ancient seller update. If things haven’t changed since 2014, a “request” and a “case” are part of the same process, but different. See the section that starts with “Language in the New Experience”:

https://pages.ebay.com/sellerinformation/news/fallupdate2014/after-sale-experience-details.html

byto253 · ‎02-27-2022

As the buyer did not receive it I guess eBay agreed that there was a case still ongoing. I actually agree with that decision. You are being honest in wanting the item to get there, but some sellers would push to have INR cases closed and if the door was shut permanently and the item did not arrive, then the buyer has no recourse. There are a lot of newbie/infrequent buyers, and buyers that have no idea and no interest in how the system works, while most sellers are much more knowledgable and sophisticated. This would be a loophole for the shysters. There are crooked buyers as well, but they would never close a case without a refund in any case.

What is very wrong is the lack of communication with you as the seller and you had to go through calls, hassle and stress for not reason. I am happy that the defect was removed, as that was totally unwarranted and IMHO an autobot move. There is disconnect between CRs and the autobot algorithms.

marnotom! · ‎02-27-2022

I do have to say that I'm really confused about the US shipping information for the jersey. The options are Letter-post USA for $18 and Small Packet Surface USA for $60. Is Small Packet Surface USA still even a thing? And even if the jersey weighed as much as 2 kg, it would still be far cheaper than $60 to send it by Tracked Packet USA.

And while we know now that sending the jersey by Letter-post could be problematic, it also shouldn't cost as much as $18 to send a 499 gram letter to the United States.

gspencer1014 · ‎02-27-2022

Was sent by CP USA small packet air. Cost about $15 or so. Tracked packet would have been about $25.

Can’t go by lettermail cause it’s a jersey.

$60 surface parcel would be for international orders

pjcdn2005 · ‎02-27-2022

The op stated that the item was sold in early January and that it was a $30 jersey so my guess is that it is the Minnesota Wild Zach jersey. Delivery to the US was advertised as small packet air.

I don't know why the other jersey suggests that it will be sent lettermail as it would be difficult to send it in a package that would work with the dimensions but they may have just clicked on lettermail by mistake and meant another method. The other method that you see says small packet international (non US) ground.

That is for international countries outside of the US. It shows as US option because the US is an international location and that is the way the calculator shows it in some circumstances. I won't go into when it shows it that way as it isn't really important to the conversation.

pjcdn2005 · ‎02-27-2022

I didn't realize that ebay would escalate a closed inr case either but I guess we know now that they will do so in some cases. As others have mentioned that may do that now in some circumstances because some sellers will ask a buyer to close a case and then just ignore the buyer after that.

When you are not using tracking it is a tough situation once an inr has been opened. If the inr was left open chances were good that ebay would have stepped in on their own without buyer input and refunded the buyer a few business days after the request was open. I have a problem with that since some buyers are willing to wait longer and I don't think that ebay should automatically decide to refund when the buyer is willing to wait. So..I can understand why a seller would want the request closed though I would be hesitant to ask a buyer to do that simply because it can be misconstrued by some.

marnotom! · ‎02-27-2022

@pjcdn2005 wrote:

I don't know why the other jersey suggests that it will be sent lettermail as it would be difficult to send it in a package that would work with the dimensions but they may have just clicked on lettermail by mistake and meant another method. The other method that you see says small packet international (non US) ground.

That is for international countries outside of the US. It shows as US option because the US is an international location and that is the way the calculator shows it in some circumstances. I won't go into when it shows it that way as it isn't really important to the conversation.

As I said, I was confused, and I would imagine that a US eBayer unfamiliar with the workings of Canada Post would be even more so when looking at the shipping information for the Sharks jersey.

marnotom! · ‎02-27-2022

@pjcdn2005 wrote:

I didn't realize that ebay would escalate a closed inr case either but I guess we know now that they will do so in some cases. As others have mentioned that may do that now in some circumstances because some sellers will ask a buyer to close a case and then just ignore the buyer after that.

If I'm interpreting that old seller update from the .com site correctly, it's not a "case" until it's escalated and eBay gets involved. Until then, it's a "request."

My guess is that as the request was closed without resolution (i.e. tracking confirming delivery, no refund at that point from the seller), it was allowed to fester until the buyer contacted eBay.

dinomitesales · ‎02-27-2022

I can't comment on the specifics of this particular case (although if I had to hazard a guess as to what happened, I'd say the buyer just called eBay on or around Feb. 11 complaining the package hadn't arrived and they just automatically refunded them), but a few suggestions to avoid situations like this in the future:

Even though Small Packet Air to the U.S. is advertised as an untracked service, it still does actually track within eBay. There is a barcode on the Small Packet Air labels and an associated "tracking number" that begins with UR. As the parcel makes it's way through the mail stream that barcode is going to get automatically scanned anyway and those scans are recorded by USPS. Even though the tracking updates won't show on Canada Post or USPS websites, they do show up on eBay because eBay has some sort of backdoor access to that tracking information. I don't know the specifics, but I can confirm that eBay shows tracking updates for all of my Small Packet Air shipments up to and including delivery. So the next time you ship Small Packet Air, just enter that UR number as the tracking number.

Also, I would suggest switching to Flat Rate shipping (if you aren't already) and selecting one of the generic options such as "Economy International Shipping" instead of "Canada Post Small Packet Air USA". This will provide a longer delivery timeframe and would be helpful if you notice that your Small Packet shipments are taking longer than the estimate provided by eBay for that particular service.