Selling/Shipping Internationally

Hello :

 

Fairly new to selling on EBay. Right now I am limiting my sales to Canada and the US. Wanted to expand to International but looking for some advice when it comes to shipping. As I understand it without a tracking mechanism I am open to dishonest buyers and a host of other problems, but the tracking shipping options at least from Canada Post are very costly for any International buyer. The difference between Small Packet International Air and Tracked Packet International is almost 5X expensive. Seems a bit ridiculous as to the price difference

 

If I was selling low value items it would probably be worth the risk of a no tracking shipping option. I guess it all depends on how much one is willing to risk, but curious to others opinions or suggestions.

 

Cheers

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Re: Selling/Shipping Internationally


@ypdc_dennis wrote:

Both Paypal and the Canada Post website (using Solutions for Small Business) produce labels with the bar code. I think over-the-counter just sticks on a bar code (but I could be wrong).


I wonder if adding the bar code number (if 't s on the label) into the tracking number field on the "Add Tracking Number" button would make a buyer less likely to scam. The number won't show up on the tracking page, but maybe the buyer will think twice if they think there was tracking.

Message 21 of 44
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Re: Selling/Shipping Internationally

Attaching non-tracking numbers purporting to be tracking numbers can also cause the opposite problem.

Honest people may think you are trying to scam them by posting a fake tracking number and they may not react well to that which can cause other problems.

I'm not familiar with the relative honesty level in your category(s) but generally speaking there is a vast majority of honest buyers out there vs dis-honest.... too often sellers over-react from the rare dishonest folks in a way that dissuades honest people. One still has to protect oneself, but in a way that doesn't offend/put off the good buyers....

My thoughts at least....

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Re: Selling/Shipping Internationally

I agree. There are far fewer dishonest buyers than there are honest ones yet all it takes is one bad situation for a seller to ruin it for all buyers to come. (Much the same as it works for buyers who encounter a dishonest seller amidst the sea of honest ones.)

For my part, I use only Tracked Packet now in place of Small Packet for 85 per cent of items shipping internationally. While this has impacted sales numbers somewhat, I have no concerns whatsoever with inquiries about Items Not Received, or Late Shipment Defects. When I did use Small Packets, I always uploaded the barcode number to the place for tracking to show a postage label had been purchased and generated but explained it was a postage receipt for the buyer as opposed to a trackable service. That seemed to settle any tracking-related questions. It's also valid, as the barcode will be cited in any buyer-related bill for customs fees due prior to delivery. The buyer will know what parcel is being held at customs for payment of tariffs based on the barcode number. That number really is used to track the parcel to some extent, just not in ways available to us mere mortals.

Like I've said before, once Small Packets began to generate those bar codes on postage labels, my rates of INR dropped sharply. But that also coincided with me stopping drop-off at corner letter boxes in favor of the postal counter so I cannot be certain which factor made the biggest difference.
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Re: Selling/Shipping Internationally


@ricarmic wrote:
Attaching non-tracking numbers purporting to be tracking numbers can also cause the opposite problem.
Honest people may think you are trying to scam them by posting a fake tracking number and they may not react well to that which can cause other problems.


I agree, I think it's always better to honest with buyers from the outset.  Giving buyers a number that looks like tracking, and hoping it will be taken as such, could well backfire on the seller if there is a delivery issue.  This is just a little too disingenuous "pulling the wool over their eyes" for my comfort. 

 

Also, although Small Packet labels have bar codes, Light Packet labels don't (at least through Paypal).  So if the OP is planning to use Light Packet, the "faux" tracking number won't be available anyway. 

 

Lastly, for the OP's sake I'd like to point out that it's important to appreciate that although a tracked service such as Tracked Packet will prevent defects for non-shipment or late shipment (provided the seller gets an acceptance scan within his/her stated handling time), it will not be a guarantee against INR claims.  It may discourage buyers from filing INR claims (bona fide or not) in most cases, but only signature confirmation will protect a seller against an INR that could obligate the seller to refund.  

 

So if the OP is planning to sell reasonably valuable items overseas, the cost of purchasing signature confirmation on Xpresspost internationally (a much more expensive service), is another consideration to keep in mind.  Delivery Confirmation does not provide the same protection for a seller as Signature Confirmation.   Either that, or use Tracked Packet or Small/Light Packet and self-insure against the possibility of the occasional INR refund (for which you won't get a defect). 

 

In my view, selling internationally these days is a minefield, not because postal systems in most countries can't deliver, but because eBay's policies and seller punishments are based on what works best for U.S. sellers, who have access to the GSP, protecting them from most of the risks we Canadians have to deal with.  Which is not to say the GSP was a good idea for buyers!

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Re: Selling/Shipping Internationally

Please clarify:

"... but only signature confirmation will protect a seller against an INR that could obligate the seller to refund."

I'm looking for you to cite the policy where this is explicitly stated.
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Re: Selling/Shipping Internationally

That is the case only for items where $750 cad is met.
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Re: Selling/Shipping Internationally


@mjwl2006 wrote:
Please clarify:

"... but only signature confirmation will protect a seller against an INR that could obligate the seller to refund."

I'm looking for you to cite the policy where this is explicitly stated.

It's not a matter of policy, but of levels of seller risk.  Aside from Paypal's policy of signature confirmation on items over $750, there is no policy obligating sellers to protect themselves if they prefer not to. 

 

However, the fact is that INRs by buyers due to items which don't actually get into the seller's hands (e.g. doorstep theft or parcels otherwise going astray after delivery) can't be countered by the seller through ordinary tracking or delivery confirmation.  Despite Paypal's required level for SC of $750, I generally use SC for items over about $250, particularly if I see that the address is an apartment building or might be vulnerable to doorstep theft.  

 

When I lived in Victoria, B.C. I had the experience of my parcels being put in a neighbour's box in a community mailbox setting on more than one occasion.  Fortunately I had honest neighbours.  Signature confirmation would have prevented this, because only a pick-up card would be left at the community box.  The same thing applies to at-door deliveries if no one is home to personally receive and sign for the parcel.  

 

For similar reasons, SC will also prevent final destination damage of a tracked parcel successfully delivered to an address but left unattended, either on a doorstep or in a community box.  This could be a critical issue for valuable items that are sensitive to heat, freezing, or humidity.  I'm thinking I would not want to ship, for example, a valuable electronic gadget without SC in summer.   

 

Many of us have had the experience of a parcel showing "delivered" on the tracking information that never actually reached the intended recipient.  In the one case I had to deal with, it turned out a neighbour had picked up the item to get it out of the rain, and it luckily did get back to my buyer before I had to refund.  

 

A related risk of course is a fraudulent INR claim, i.e. buyers who hope to get their item for free by claiming they didn't actually receive it.  We've seen this sort of thing reported on the boards.  Unfortunately, without SC the seller has no positive proof the parcel got into the buyer's hands.  

 

Granted, most buyers won't be aware of these subtleties of seller risk, and may be deterred, certainly from bogus claims, by seeing tracking.  But a buyer who really hasn't receive his or her item due to mishap or theft is entitled to turn to the seller and/or eBay for reimbursement, tracking or not.  If the seller can't show a receipt (signature), the only way to avoid a defect (i.e. to resolve an INR claim) would be to provide a full refund. 

 

In the end, the choice of using SC or not is a matter of personal risk tolerance (as long as the value is under $750).  I would think the risk probably rises the more destinations a seller ships to.  

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Re: Selling/Shipping Internationally

Here's something else I've just noticed with respect to sigature confirmation.  If I'm reading the notice correctly, this will automatically increase the cost of any parcel within Canada with insured valued of $200 and up.  I suppose Canada Post is trying to reduce "non-delivery" claims by obligating senders to pay a premium to prevent it.  Is doorstep theft becoming such a problem?

 

See post #6 in this thread: http://community.ebay.ca/t5/Seller-Central/Canada-Post-Rates-2017/m-p/361668#U361668

 

"Additional Liability Coverage

 

Domestic: The purchase of the Signature option will be mandatory when the coverage value is $200 or more (Applicable Signature fee will be added to the Additional Liability Coverage feature)."

 

In other words, sorry, no choice! 

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Re: Selling/Shipping Internationally

 

I'm having déjà-vu again.  But that's right, I think once a person wants to insure the parcel for a value of more than $200, they have to buy the signature.  Here is the old thread if anyone wants to see it.  There's the link in there from CP:

 

http://community.ebay.ca/t5/Seller-Central/2017-Canada-Post-parcel-rates-effective-Jan-16-2017/m-p/3...

 

Maybe CP should have to do the signing.  When a seller brings in a parcel valued over $200, CP pays the seller $1.50 promising not to leave it on a doorstep if no one is home.   😠  

 

 

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Re: Selling/Shipping Internationally


@rose-dee wrote:

@mjwl2006 wrote:
Please clarify:

"... but only signature confirmation will protect a seller against an INR that could obligate the seller to refund."

I'm looking for you to cite the policy where this is explicitly stated.

It's not a matter of policy, but of levels of seller risk.  Aside from Paypal's policy of signature confirmation on items over $750, there is no policy obligating sellers to protect themselves if they prefer not to. 

 

However, the fact is that INRs by buyers due to items which don't actually get into the seller's hands (e.g. doorstep theft or parcels otherwise going astray after delivery) can't be countered by the seller through ordinary tracking or delivery confirmation.  Despite Paypal's required level for SC of $750, I generally use SC for items over about $250, particularly if I see that the address is an apartment building or might be vulnerable to doorstep theft.  

 

When I lived in Victoria, B.C. I had the experience of my parcels being put in a neighbour's box in a community mailbox setting on more than one occasion.  Fortunately I had honest neighbours.  Signature confirmation would have prevented this, because only a pick-up card would be left at the community box.  The same thing applies to at-door deliveries if no one is home to personally receive and sign for the parcel.  

 

For similar reasons, SC will also prevent final destination damage of a tracked parcel successfully delivered to an address but left unattended, either on a doorstep or in a community box.  This could be a critical issue for valuable items that are sensitive to heat, freezing, or humidity.  I'm thinking I would not want to ship, for example, a valuable electronic gadget without SC in summer.   

 

Many of us have had the experience of a parcel showing "delivered" on the tracking information that never actually reached the intended recipient.  In the one case I had to deal with, it turned out a neighbour had picked up the item to get it out of the rain, and it luckily did get back to my buyer before I had to refund.  

 

A related risk of course is a fraudulent INR claim, i.e. buyers who hope to get their item for free by claiming they didn't actually receive it.  We've seen this sort of thing reported on the boards.  Unfortunately, without SC the seller has no positive proof the parcel got into the buyer's hands.  

 

Granted, most buyers won't be aware of these subtleties of seller risk, and may be deterred, certainly from bogus claims, by seeing tracking.  But a buyer who really hasn't receive his or her item due to mishap or theft is entitled to turn to the seller and/or eBay for reimbursement, tracking or not.  If the seller can't show a receipt (signature), the only way to avoid a defect (i.e. to resolve an INR claim) would be to provide a full refund. 

 

In the end, the choice of using SC or not is a matter of personal risk tolerance (as long as the value is under $750).  I would think the risk probably rises the more destinations a seller ships to.  


See boldfaced text. That is not a fact. That is your theory or presumption.

 

Tracking that shows Item Delivered absolves the seller of INR responsibility. Ask ebay and Paypal if you don't believe me because I have already done so.

 

If the parcel is stolen by 'porch shoppers' after delivery that is a matter for the buyer and local law enforcement. It is up to the buyer to request Do Not Safe Drop, or the sender if he or she is wary of the delivery location. But not required. The seller's responsibility for delivery ends at tracking showing delivered if the item is less than $750 Cad and with signature on delivery if it exceeded $750.

 

And nothing on earth will prevent a case of 'Box of Rocks' SNAD unless you decide as a seller for some reason to enclose a notarized legal letter as your packing slip. The latter is my presumption. As a legal document, I assume it would hold up in court against any fraud cases. 

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Re: Selling/Shipping Internationally

Since we are dealing with selling on eBay perhaps you could be more specific when you are stating your own opinion vs actual eBay/PayPal policy so as not to confuse newer sellers. 

 

Some of your posts give the impression that if a buyer puts in an inr claim for a package the seller will have to refund if there is no signature confirmation even if there is delivery confirmation.  As mj pointed out, that is not policy unless the transaction is US$750+.   If a seller wants to refund because the buyer said the item must have been taken off of their porch that is obviously allowed but the seller would not be forced to refund. Your statements seem to suggest otherwise. 

 

Obviously signature confirmation has its place but it is certainly not a guarantee of any thing for buyer or seller.  Ive heard of parcels being signed for and delivered to a wrong address.

 

Edit...geez mj. get out of my thoughts lol

 

Mj, a notarized statement 'might' help in a court of law but I suspect that eBay might not take one into account.

 

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Re: Selling/Shipping Internationally

If extra insurance is necessary, it would be less expensive to use a different company to insure. CP was too expensive before and that extra cost for a signature makes it even more expensive.

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Re: Selling/Shipping Internationally


@pjcdn2005 wrote:

Since we are dealing with selling on eBay perhaps you could be more specific when you are stating your own opinion vs actual eBay/PayPal policy so as not to confuse newer sellers. 

 

Some of your posts give the impression that if a buyer puts in an inr claim for a package the seller will have to refund if there is no signature confirmation even if there is delivery confirmation.  

 


Excuse me, but I said nothing about policy in my earlier posts.  It seems I'm being pilloried for someone else's suggestion of what I might have said.   

 

I consider it an obligation to my buyers to refund if they don't receive a parcel.  Many sellers have become so focused on policy that they've forgotten about the common sense of good customer service.  

 

Still, I'm not going to unnecessarily risk a loss of a valuable item, even if it isn't worth $750 or more.  If I send a $400 item with tracking but no signature confirmation and the buyer files a bona fide INR, it is my responsibility to refund, whether eBay requires it or not.  It is also my responsibility to insure the item if I want to avoid a total loss.

 

Perhaps I tend to look at these questions from a buyer's viewpoint, not just to save my own skin based on eBay's policies.  I believe wholeheartedly that it's the seller's place to ensure the item paid for gets into the buyer's hands.  If it doesn't, it's the seller's problem to solve. 

 

That is all I was saying, nothing more.  It's a matter of perceived responsibility and acceptable risk. 

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Re: Selling/Shipping Internationally


@rose-dee wrote:

@pjcdn2005 wrote:

Since we are dealing with selling on eBay perhaps you could be more specific when you are stating your own opinion vs actual eBay/PayPal policy so as not to confuse newer sellers. 

 

Some of your posts give the impression that if a buyer puts in an inr claim for a package the seller will have to refund if there is no signature confirmation even if there is delivery confirmation.  

 


Excuse me, but I said nothing about policy in my earlier posts.  It seems I'm being pilloried for someone else's suggestion of what I might have said.   

 

I consider it an obligation to my buyers to refund if they don't receive a parcel.  Many sellers have become so focused on policy that they've forgotten about the common sense of good customer service.  

 

Still, I'm not going to unnecessarily risk a loss of a valuable item, even if it isn't worth $750 or more.  If I send a $400 item with tracking but no signature confirmation and the buyer files a bona fide INR, it is my responsibility to refund, whether eBay requires it or not.  It is also my responsibility to insure the item if I want to avoid a total loss.

 

Perhaps I tend to look at these questions from a buyer's viewpoint, not just to save my own skin based on eBay's policies.  I believe wholeheartedly that it's the seller's place to ensure the item paid for gets into the buyer's hands.  If it doesn't, it's the seller's problem to solve. 

 

That is all I was saying, nothing more.  It's a matter of perceived responsibility and acceptable risk. 


Someone else's suggestion??  When I read your post it certainly sounded like you were stating policy, not what you would do for the sake of good customer service.  That is especially true In the quote below when you refer to a seller getting a defect. Perhaps you consider it your responsibility to refund when a buyer files an inr even if delivery confirmation shows that the item was delivered but your statement that a signature is the only way to avoid a defect in that situation is incorrect.  If I was a new seller and read what you wrote,  I would probably think that I always needed delivery confirmation AND a signature to win an inr.  

 

You said..

"Granted, most buyers won't be aware of these subtleties of seller risk, and may be deterred, certainly from bogus claims, by seeing tracking. But a buyer who really hasn't receive his or her item due to mishap or theft is entitled to turn to the seller and/or eBay for reimbursement, tracking or not. If the seller can't show a receipt (signature), the only way to avoid a defect (i.e. to resolve an INR claim) would be to provide a full refund."

 

 

All I am saying that it is easy to make an opinion sound like a fact to someone who is not familiar with the rules. 

 

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Re: Selling/Shipping Internationally

Thank you, pj. That was also my concern with the statement which is the reason I asked for clarification on it.
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Re: Selling/Shipping Internationally


@ricarmic wrote:
Attaching non-tracking numbers purporting to be tracking numbers can also cause the opposite problem.

Honest people may think you are trying to scam them by posting a fake tracking number and they may not react well to that which can cause other problems.

I'm not familiar with the relative honesty level in your category(s) but generally speaking there is a vast majority of honest buyers out there vs dis-honest.... too often sellers over-react from the rare dishonest folks in a way that dissuades honest people. One still has to protect oneself, but in a way that doesn't offend/put off the good buyers....

My thoughts at least....


Yes, you are right, too much overthinking and in the end if someone wants to stick it to a buyer they will find a way.

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Re: Selling/Shipping Internationally


@pjcdn2005 wrote:
All I am saying that it is easy to make an opinion sound like a fact to someone who is not familiar with the rules.  

Yes, and I was feeling particularly unwell yesterday and not thinking or writing very clearly.  I apologize to anyone who may have been confused.  You are right, of course, that eBay policy will absolve a seller from an INR case if a tracked item was sent within the seller's handling time.  That wasn't exactly the point I was trying to make about my own preferences, but in terms of policy, that is correct.  

 

Although this is getting a bit into the weeds, here for others' sake is the relevant wording on the MBG: 

 

  • Protection when shipping within your stated time: if a buyer claims that they did not receive an item, the related eBay Money Back Guarantee case will be found in your favor if you shipped within your stated handling time and provided tracking information (with signature confirmation for transactions of $750 or more) before the case was escalated to eBay.
  • To be protected, the tracking information will need to show proof of delivery from a shipping company that clearly displays the delivery status of the item as “delivered”, the date of delivery (which reflects that you shipped within the stated handling time), and the recipient’s address.
  • Any buyer feedback (positive, neutral, and negative) along with detailed seller ratings (DSRs) will be removed promptly from transactions in which an eBay Money Back Guarantee case is resolved in your favor by eBay.
  • eBay monitors transactions proactively to identify, warn, and restrict buyers who file an unusually high number of cases. You can track the number of times eBay Money Back Guarantee cases have been removed from your account as a result of these actions in your Seller Dashboard.
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Re: Selling/Shipping Internationally

Thank you, rose-dee, this is the clarification that I was hoping to see. I'm sorry to hear you were unwell. Feel better soon. 

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Re: Selling/Shipping Internationally

Thank you for your thoughts.  I had the usual horrid post-Christmas 'flu, and was really struggling yesterday.  I should probably have been in bed, but there's always so much to do.  

 

There is no true holiday when you're selling online, it's a 24/7 concern.  It used to be -- especially prior to 2014 -- that I could do quite nicely selling on eBay alone, but that is no longer possible.  Now I'm spread around and do much better, but it means that every day I have to monitor 3 different selling venues, 4 different email accounts, my Facebook and other online pages, and still try to get some of my regular design work done.  

 

It's actually more work to temporarily shut it all down appropriately than to just pick away and do what I can if I'm not in the best of shape.  And then I get embroiled here on the eBay seller board when I should be doing all of that.  I've actually decided to stay off the boards for quite some time, possibly permanently, especially after the unsettling and rather ugly experience yesterday.  I suppose I just don't have the fortitude for it anymore.  

 

 

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Re: Selling/Shipping Internationally

For over the counter, the label that prints with the postage value also has a barcode with a number similar to the one that prints via Paypal shipping. 

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