Understanding the VeRO Infringement Policy

I had a new listing removed this morning for this item, for this reason:

My own photo, and it's products in my own personal makeup collection:

185124593440 - New MAKE UP FOR EVER Hydra Booster Primer Lot of 3 Step 1 Mini 5ml / .16 fl oz

Reason:

Your listing was reported by LVMH Fashion Group for violating their intellectual property rights. eBay’s Verified Rights Owner (VeRO) program offers intellectual property owner(s) a way to report listings that they believe infringe on their rights
- Infringing intellectual property rights is not allowed

There's THOUSANDS of listings by that brand. What gives? Do competing sellers sabotage their competition by reporting other sellers? How is this fair?

I don't use brand's photos and I don't drop ship, so I'm not sure what else I can do to stay safe as a seller of brand name items...???
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Re: Understanding the VeRO Infringement Policy

It wasn't another seller who reported you it was the rights owner (Louis Vuitton) who told ebsy to take it down and eBay had to comply.  There should be an email address that you can contact the company to ask what the problem was.   

Other than on the product, did you have any type of logo in the listing?

Was the item a sample?  I know cosmetic samples are sold all the time but perhaps they have a problem with that?  

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Re: Understanding the VeRO Infringement Policy

Yeah, it was makeup samples, and the product logo is shown in my photo, on the product. Not much I can do about that. Admittedly, I don't sell much by this brand, so if it's just this one, that's fine. But it scares me into thinking it's going to start happening with the rest of my stock! Over half of my inventory is samples, and a good chunk of them are by brands also owned by LVMH! I do select "sample size" in a lot of my listings for product size and/or put the word "Sample" in the title... I wonder if that's what they scan for...?

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Re: Understanding the VeRO Infringement Policy

Is it possible it was because they were "Samples"?  Those often come with "Not for Resale" type verbage, maybe the rights holder is just cracking down on that?

 

Ian

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Re: Understanding the VeRO Infringement Policy

I'm really not sure but if you send an email to the email in the takedown notice they 'may' be able to give you an answer.

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Re: Understanding the VeRO Infringement Policy

Hi. My appology for this being lengthy. This is a complex subject. There is no easy fast answer to any Vero question.

 

I received something similar about a month ago. The item in question was a $5.00 early 90's vintage music equipment sticker with a brand name on it. My situation was complicated because it was 1 item in a lot of 4 items listed for $24.99. All four vintage stickers were from different and unrelated brands.  I recently sold some to an American museum.

 

The letter from eBay didn't disclose which item or brand was being questioned. They simply pulled down the listing. They told me not to put it up again but still wouldn't clarify what item it was because 
eBay didn't seem to know.   I was left sitting on a dozen unlisted items I can't list as I had to be sure which brand was vero.  The parent company had a completely different name. I researched the company and connected them to one of the stickers. They bought the company cheap after the owner committed suicide.  I assume I know what the product is but that's about it.  Listing the other items would be like playing Russian Roulette. 

 

eBay would not tell me which item was being accused of being counterfeit. In my case they accused of counterfeiting the sticker. This was ridiculous because they were all obtained by myself and a friend attending the Namm show in the early 90's directly from the exhibition booth of the manufacturer.  Ironically I was a music dealer for the very brand in question. They accused me of counterfeiting them but they did not know I was previously their own dealer. 🙂

 

The stickers had been obtained by myself and friends while attenting a trade show in Los Angeles. I sent a letter of appeal to the company as per eBays instructions. After a month there's been no response. I took my case to eBay For Business. They wouldn't do anything except suggest I contact the Vero team.  I haven't yet done this.  First I wanted to know what is really going on. I did a month's research with Sellers who have also had vero issues. It's too complicated to get into as every case is different. 

 

I found out that due to the system for companies to report items and remove them that there is a lot of abuse of the program. Any company for any reason can pull your items if they are the parent company. The reasons for doing so that eBay offersw them do not cover many bases. You can read the Vero policy to find out more.  There have been companies that pull items to eliminate competition which is governed by different laws in different countries. some companies abuse the program by simply pulling ALL references to their products whichg in the USA is illegal. A court case to go after them can cost more that $00K so they get away with it. 

 

In my case the sticker in question was printed on Fassoon "Crack N Peel" vintage paper which was a patented item and it has the ID  on it. The stationary company Avery bought Fassoon and the entire history of the company is recorded so my item is as real and easily verifiable as any bank note. I could go after them. The trouble and money is not worth it. Neverthe less this makor company is abusing the eBay Vero program. As the company didn't even reply to my appeal I will report them as a program abuser. That is about all you can do. What really hurts was I used to represent the company as a dealer. I used to employ there products on big music festival stages. What I did to is report them to the music industry where people talk. apparently their reputaion was tainted a long time ago. 

 

Ebay's approach unfortunately is to look the other way.  What I learned from doing a lot of research was when it comes to a vero claim there is absolutely no seller protection. all you can do is hope enough sellers report the same company for abuse of the program. 

 

If you do the research you can obtain a list of many companies to avoid. One thing to remember is the USA laws are different. The companies act ruthlessly  towards Canadians because they don't care. They don't expect a lawsauit.  In my case it may have merely been a "bot" that scanned eBay for logos and automatically files a vero if ANYTHING with their logo pops up.  In my mind and those of hundreds of sellers the vero program needs a major overhaul. 

 

For those who feel the Vero is unjustified I recommend appealling to the company at the address provided by eBay (some sellers win those appeals and get an apology), you notify Ebay for Business and you file a complaint with eBays vero team as I am about to. 

 

ITWM

PS After a month I still could not get a clarification from eBay on which item in the lot of 4 items was in question.  The company which was completely unrelated to the other 3 items did not even have to say which item in the lot of 4 had their logo on it. That should illustrate how poorly the program is administrated. 

 

 

 

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Re: Understanding the VeRO Infringement Policy


@teenytrinkets wrote:
I had a new listing removed this morning for this item, for this reason:

My own photo, and it's products in my own personal makeup collection:

185124593440 - New MAKE UP FOR EVER Hydra Booster Primer Lot of 3 Step 1 Mini 5ml / .16 fl oz

Reason:

Your listing was reported by LVMH Fashion Group for violating their intellectual property rights. eBay’s Verified Rights Owner (VeRO) program offers intellectual property owner(s) a way to report listings that they believe infringe on their rights
- Infringing intellectual property rights is not allowed

There's THOUSANDS of listings by that brand. What gives? Do competing sellers sabotage their competition by reporting other sellers? How is this fair?

I don't use brand's photos and I don't drop ship, so I'm not sure what else I can do to stay safe as a seller of brand name items...???

 I realized I could offer something more relevant to your own personal vero. Your statement about the other listings stands out. It's possible someone reported you.  Sometimes a competitor will report an infringement to eliminate competition. This is common with retail arbitrage where there are multiples.  There's lots of reasons why only one seller in a bunch gets targetted. 

 

When I spoke to Ebay For Business I found out even a warning gets registered against your account. If you feel it was justified then do your due dilligence to avoid it. If the warning was unjustified protect your account by appealing it to the complainant and notify the eBay Vero team.  

 

I soon became overwhelmed with sellers and articles. One of the more recent vero sources is on YouTube. "Rockstar Flipper"  is the channel name.  2021 Videos are dated Jan 21 and Sept 8. I think he has more. He's an accountant and explains it nicely. I don't put links up but his channel is easy to find.  Search for the channel Rockstarflipper. Go to his list of videos and find the dates of his videos I've suggested. He covers the various vero issues which are valid and some are not. He talks about Louis Viton in the Jan 21 video.  I recommend that one first. 

 

Hope that helps a bit!

 

IT

 

 

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Re: Understanding the VeRO Infringement Policy

Thanks for all that information. I've had two listings pulled by the same parent company, but others that remain. I think it was a BOT scanning for logos on samples I'm selling. I don't get too bent out of shape about it because I have other selling platforms I can switch to. And if ebay lets it get that out of control, we'll all have nothing left to sell!!!

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Re: Understanding the VeRO Infringement Policy

Hi. Thank you for opening this topic. I think it's worth a read particularly for newer Sellers.  I hope my research may save someone else a bit of time and frustration. 

 

   As I said this is a complex topic. Every case is different. They  involve the Rights owners,  the Seller, the nature of the product, the listing itself  and Ebay.

 

   Ebay seems to force all the variances for take down reasons through a narrow funnel of check boxes. In other words Ebay doesn't allow very many "take down" reasons for rights owners to select and individualize their accusations. Let's say "A policeman pulls you over while driving.  You went through a traffic light. On the constable's form there's no box for him to check for someone going through a red light. Instead he checks the next closest reason. "Went through a stop sign".  Of course you didn't go through a stop sign. Easy to fight that through LOCAL jurisdictions. 

 

   In my case the charge on the notice was selling a supposed "counterfeit" sticker from Canada that was made in the USA.  The parent company is in California. Either they didn't look at the photo of the back of it or maybe they didn't care it was authentic the charge could easily be dissproven. but there is no local jurisdiction.

   

   To be clear the companies that file a take down request to Ebay have only a few check boxes to choose from. I'm not sure but it may only be two reasons in the USA due to their law that grants owners of legal items to legally sell them. I don't want to mislead anyone. If you want to clarify that go to the Ebay Vero pages and look it up for Canada.

 

      The only reason I could guess they wanted my item gone was because as it was their own promotional sticker that they gave me themselves in the 90s it had a picture of their logo on it. This is still speculation as no one yet from the parent company or Ebay will tell me which item was the problem in my lot of 4 items that came from different manufacturers.  Sort of like the police officer saying " You went through a red light and I can't say where it was." I can see why Ebay doesn't know. there is no place for a company or a "bot" to specifically describe an item in a check box.

 

   In my last comment I suggested some public sources (YouTube) to illustrate to sellers how other sellers handle these situations.  One of them ("Profit Monsters" video dated Jan 27, 2020) since directed me to the best information which is actually on  Ebay USA. You can go through the list of the wishes of verified rights owners. and see what they expect. Ican tell you every single one has different requests from Ebay sellers regarding their products.  Unfortunately the one that abused the policy saying I was counterfeiting is not on this list.    You can also see why other sellers may report you to the verified rights owner and how Ebay encourages them to do that

 

     In my case I tried to learn from others and I  did what needed to be done to avoid this happening again. I agree with "Rockstar Flipper". Just do whatever you have to do to make it go away. Try to avoid it in the future through self knowledge.  Don't blame Ebay. The legal complexities are too complicated for Ebay to try and regulate. The problem is multiplatform. It's  and not restricted to Ebay. As a seller you are on your own. It's a poorly managed loophole and just not worth taking personally. 

 

  Companies can contact you outside of Ebay. via email, letters to your business or even phone calls. They can buy your stuff and thus get your contact info. Scams can happen this way. Other sellers have even been known to act as rights holders. If the notice comes through Ebay it's actually good because it's easy enough to verify if the request is bonified. 

 

  Here is the Ebay USA link to the list of companies. It has many FAQs. One for example shows how Ebay itself encourages sellers to report rights violtaions directly to the rights owners. another explains how other sellers may have similar listings to yours that are not affected. Click on some companies that catch your eye. Each includes a PDF on why that specific company will take your item down.

 

   Then go to Ebay Canada's Veros page. You will notice the checkboxs Ebay provides to companies may not have much to do (if anything) with the actual reason they outline in their "what sellers can and can't do" PDF.   Lots of companies simply don't want any products bearing their namesake (even if authentic) to be resold.  One such company is Otterbox but there are lots. Just a photo of the logo is enough for a takedown beit a legal one or not. Some companies have good reasons such as warrantees and licensed seller protections. Some say selling used is OK but not new. In that case sometimes Sellers with brand new items choose to list them as "used".  Theres  a question of legality but a legal dispute can cost plenty.

 

   In my mind knowledge is the best defense. Please correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure it's OK to post an Ebay link so here it is. 

 

https://pages.ebay.com/seller-center/listing-and-marketing/verified-rights-owner-program.html#m17-1-...

ITWM

 

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Re: Understanding the VeRO Infringement Policy

Lots of companies simply don't want any products bearing their namesake (even if authentic) to be resold. One such company is Otterbox but there are lots. Just a photo of the logo is enough for a takedown beit a legal one or not. Some companies have good reasons such as warrantees and licensed seller protections. Some say selling used is OK but not new.

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Just to expand on that.  Vero is supposed to be for companies to report when their intellectual property rights have been infringed upon.  They are not supposed to report a seller because the company doesn't want their  items sold here, or because they require them to do be sold for a specific price or because they only want licensed retailers to sell their products.  Obviously some companies will report something as 'counterfeit' even though it isn't  because they want the listing taken down and they don't have a legitimate reason to request it.  There are also companies who report listings for rights holders and they don't seem to always follow the rules.

 

Usually as long as items are authentic, you use your own pictures and do not use someone else's logo (a logo on the item or packaging is allowed if the item is authentic) the listing should be fine.  Those are the main reasons that I've seen that have caused listings to be taken down by VERO.  Obviously there are always exceptions but just because someone is on the VERO list doesn't mean that their items shouldn't be sold.  

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Re: Understanding the VeRO Infringement Policy

Thanks for your input. I think most of us would agree. I found it interesting to read the expectation pdf s of many companies. It seems many are fine with the general terms you point out.  Besides them there are a lot that write impractical and, in some cases, illegal guidelines. For example it would be a bad idea to sell an item bearing the Hell's Angels logo.  Theirs is pretty short. Don't sell anything! Some of the manufacturer guidelines such as Playboy Enterprises aren't even written in the English language. 

 

This maker by maker mayhem is what I was reffering to when I said the program was poorly administered. I think if a seller goes to the effort of trying to understand the demands of the maker those demands should at least be displayed in English on Ebay USA & in Canada. 

 

Within many of the pdf s there's a lot left to the sellers discression and imagination. For example the company that makes "Radio Flyer" wagons says it's OK to sell used ones as long as they are not modified. So does that mean you can't sell one with a new paint job or possibly one fitted with a harness for a dog? In their case it's OK to photograph and sell the box it came in but it's not OK to put any of the details printed on the box in your listing. 

 

It appears  anything written up by a maker to describe an item on its packaging, in an advertisement or in a catalog is "Intellectual Property" and most makers say it cannot be used in a listing. 

 

Some of the pdf s are 2 very vague paragraphs while others are pages of details. I think you are right in developing a generalization. There are just too many limitations to remember.  Its also easier if you sell used vintage authentic items that aren't subject to as much scrutiny. 

 

Something I found researching sellers who've been penalized was many weren't even contacted by Ebay until 2-4 weeks after they sold the item.  No one wants their store closed by some rogue company due to an accident in a listing of an item that is gone. You can't undo that.  It's an undefendable situation.

 

One thing is for certain. As online sales grow, unless some sort of "Company Rights Regulating Body"  is employed in Canada and the other site locations this problem will grow with it. 

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