eBay Sellers Being Told They Must Accept Returns

[pierrelebel]

There's a report that eBay Customer Service Reps are telling sellers they must accept
returns, counter to eBay's Fall Seller Update announcement.

http://www.ecommercebytes.com/cab/abn/y14/m09/i23/s03

[reallynicestamps]

The sellers were welcome to have it back if they wanted it and I was prepared to pay hefty shipping fees to make that happen.

You aren't required to keep it. You can ship it back any time. Since the Dispute is over, you don't even have to use Confirmed Delivery.

And ethically, I don't think you should be keeping both the money and the trash  items.

[old.crows.nest]

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@holdmygold2 wrote:

You are missing the point.

I was unlucky to have a several of these in a short period of time but that's very unusual.  Returns are rare.

These items were significantly not as described and eBay found in favour of the sellers.

In all of these cases the sellers escalated the cases and argued that the items were as described and eBay bought it and denied the returns.

Those decisions came back in no time at all............ a few hours type of thing.

I didn't want the trash and keeping it is of no benefit to me.

The sellers were welcome to have it back if they wanted it and I was prepared to pay hefty shipping fees to make that happen.

The point is that eBay does not automatically find in favour of buyers.

I had to fight for my refunds.

This type of problem is at the heart of the decision to have sellers pay return shipping but they're not making it easy for buyers.

I am only one buyer and maybe it's not a trend but something tells me it might be.

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Curious, did you or were you able to include pictures when you filed the claim? Ones that clearly stated your case? Mostly I am talking about the damaged item including the packaging it arrived in? But also the others as well. A picture being worth a hundred words and all that? If you were allowed to attach an image and did not that would not have served you well. ebay not asking for pictures seems odd to me though.

[old.crows.nest]

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@reallynicestamps wrote:

In cases where a Seller has failed to ship the item with due care and it arrives damaged that should still be a SNAD Claim? Has that changed? Are Sellers no longer responsible for Shipping damage?

The seller is responsible for shipping damage for two reasons. First she packed the item. Poor packaging is the most common reason for damage in transit.

And by poor packaging I mean the ability to withstand a two foot drop (to the next conveyor belt in the terminal) and having a 50 lb parcel land on top of it (again, the next item on the same conveyor belt).*

The other reason is that the seller subcontracts shipping to a courier or the postal system. The subcontractor is responsible to its customer (the seller) but the seller is responsible to her customer (the buyer).

So any insurance payment goes to the seller, who reimburses the buyer.

Actually, normally the seller would reimburse the buyer and then go after the insurance, but you get the point.

Or has ebay also realized that some Buyers will deliberately damage items in order to get a refund?

While there are crazies out there, I suspect that this is a very very unusual happening. If the refund were refused, the buyer would have paid for a functional and saleable item that he then made unusable and unsaleable.

*That's the standard a Canada Post officer gave to an eBay seminar some years ago here in Ottawa.

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Thank you for responding to my questions.

Do you know if Light Packet is put into the same sorting line as Parcels? (My expectation is that it goes with Letters which means it is only subject to mutilation by machinery not the crushing force of 50 lb Parcels.)

A side note: I used to ship some larger items by Small Packet because insurance was included. Now that it is not I use Shipsurance /InsurePost to cover items from damage or being lost in transit. Mostly for peace of mind but it did come in handy recently when a shipment went missing. They now have an online Affidavit which means less hassle for both parties. I am waiting to submit my paperwork as I have a feeling the UK Buyer refused the Parcel and it may yet turn up (postage due.)

[holdmygold2]

Yes, I posted several very clear photos.

[old.crows.nest]

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@holdmygold2 wrote:

Yes, I posted several very clear photos.

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If you did when you initiated the claim than proves that a blind person or a bot must have handled the case. Sorry you had that experience.

[holdmygold2]

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@reallynicestamps wrote:

The sellers were welcome to have it back if they wanted it and I was prepared to pay hefty shipping fees to make that happen.

You aren't required to keep it. You can ship it back any time. Since the Dispute is over, you don't even have to use Confirmed Delivery.

And ethically, I don't think you should be keeping both the money and the trash  items.

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I've read some of your posts and most of the time you right on the money, but with this I disagree 110%.

Ethically, the sellers shouldn't have misrepresented their items.  

When sellers do that, expecting to be treated decently in turn is beyond reasonable.

Moreover, the sellers weren't out a dime.......... but even if the refunds had come out of their pockets.......

Why would I return items to them at my expense when I bought in good faith only to be disappointed?

These sellers wasted my precious time.  Why would I return items or cut them any slack in any way?

[rose-dee]

I'm just curious -- were these items that were damaged in transit, or were significantly different in quality, size, colour, etc. from the photos and description(s) in the original listings? 

Could you give us some idea of what general category of items these were?  Jewellery, collectibles/antiques, furniture, china/glass, electronics, clothing, etc.? 

I'm trying to understand why eBay would find a SNAD case in favour of the seller -- and so quickly.  I don't think this is the experience of most sellers.  Is it possible that "old-crow's-nest" is correct that eBay thought the item specifics and condition did match the condition of the item? 

Again, it would help to understand whether this was a disconnect between expected condition/quality and the reality, or whether it was damaged in transit (or perhaps both). 

The reason I'm asking these questions is to understand what seems to me to be a troubling inconsistency on the part of eBay.  They should be able to determine these issues correctly the first time, based on the seller's information and the buyer's report.  Perhaps the Money Back Guarantee did apply in this instance.  

In any event, it's a very strange occurrence, and I would hope -- certainly from a seller's point of view -- that buyers are not being routinely treated this way if there is a clear discrepancy between condition/quality received and condition/quality advertised (listed). 

As a seller, I take great care to try to properly disclose any flaws or condition issues, and would expect eBay to intervene on behalf of a buyer if I didn't.  Only if eBay applies its SNAD rules appropriately will buyers have confidence in all of us sellers.

[holdmygold2]

No offense, but I'm really tired of explaining what happened.

[rose-dee]

I'm sorry you feel that way, as it would be helpful I think for sellers to understand more of the details. 

[old.crows.nest]

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@holdmygold2 wrote:

No offense, but I'm really tired of explaining what happened.

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I can understand it is frustrating to have people ask after your complaints.

Did you start a Thread where we can go to learn in more detail what happened? Maybe see the pictures and examine the listings?

Myself, I am mostly a Seller and would like to know how the Sellers mislead you and how the system failed. I certainly do not want to make so grievous an oversight as appears to have happened in your case.

[brandeentertainment]

just so you know ... IF you know all the rules and regs it is almost impossible for a buyer to be ripped off... Sellers well there is 100 ways to rip sellers off .... Remember most sellers understand the buyer side not only because most of us are buyers but because it is our jobs to know all the rules and regs .... I couldn't tell you how many times buyers blame everything that has nothing to do with seller on the seller ... Personally in over 2000 purchases on ebay I have never had 1 issue not 1 that I could not take care of with a few messages or click of a mouse...

[holdmygold2]

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@brandeentertainment wrote:
just so you know ... IF you know all the rules and regs it is almost impossible for a buyer to be ripped off... Sellers well there is 100 ways to rip sellers off ....

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Sorry, but I strongly disagree with that statement.

Buyers are ripped off all the time.  I don't have to go into detail because you just have to read the Buyers' board for that.

Sellers get ripped off too, but no more than buyers.

Keep in mind that what you read here reflects the sellers side of things and that's even true on the buyers' board.

Most buyers just take the hit quietly while sellers post here.

In other words, you just see the tip of the iceberg when you read the problems buyers have because they don't post.

For sellers you're seeing the whole iceberg because they post here and they're vocal about it.

[old.crows.nest]

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@holdmygold2 wrote:

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@brandeentertainment wrote:
just so you know ... IF you know all the rules and regs it is almost impossible for a buyer to be ripped off... Sellers well there is 100 ways to rip sellers off ....

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Sorry, but I strongly disagree with that statement.

Buyers are ripped off all the time.  I don't have to go into detail because you just have to read the Buyers' board for that.

Sellers get ripped off too, but no more than buyers.

Keep in mind that what you read here reflects the sellers side of things and that's even true on the buyers' board.

Most buyers just take the hit quietly while sellers post here.

In other words, you just see the tip of the iceberg when you read the problems buyers have because they don't post.

For sellers you're seeing the whole iceberg because they post here and they're vocal about it.

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Might be true but only because some Buyers refuse to accept help. Sometimes I think it is because they embarrassed. They may well know they were played /participated in a con or because they were naive. Well the only way for them to get over it is to come out and allow themselves and others to learn.

May Sellers are more vocal but that is because the system is stacked against us to start with! They unite in a common purpose!

[holdmygold2]

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@old.crows.nest wrote:

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Might be true but only because some Buyers refuse to accept help. Sometimes I think it is because they embarrassed. They may well know they were played /participated in a con or because they were naive. Well the only way for them to get over it is to come out and allow themselves and others to learn.

May Sellers are more vocal but that is because the system is stacked against us to start with! They unite in a common purpose!

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I don't think buyers are embarrassed when they get taken for a ride and it has nothing at all o do with being naive.  (Is trusting a seller naive?)

I think that many or even most are just too busy with their lives to pursue "issues" and so they take the hit(s).

I see my friends do that every day even though they have me to help them if they want it. 

Sellers are more vocal because it's their business and not because the cards are stacked against them.

They aren't.

They do unite in a common purpose.  That part is true, but that's not necessarily a good thing.

[old.crows.nest]

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@holdmygold2 wrote:

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@old.crows.nest wrote:

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Might be true but only because some Buyers refuse to accept help. Sometimes I think it is because they embarrassed. They may well know they were played /participated in a con or because they were naive. Well the only way for them to get over it is to come out and allow themselves and others to learn.

May Sellers are more vocal but that is because the system is stacked against us to start with! They unite in a common purpose!

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I don't think buyers are embarrassed when they get taken for a ride and it has nothing at all o do with being naive.  (Is trusting a seller naive?)

I think that many or even most are just too busy with their lives to pursue "issues" and so they take the hit(s).

I see my friends do that every day even though they have me to help them if they want it. 

Sellers are more vocal because it's their business and not because the cards are stacked against them.

They aren't.

They do unite in a common purpose.  That part is true, but that's not necessarily a good thing.

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Naive is not just about trusting anyone it is about having a limited awareness of how a system functions.

:start vent: No disrespect intended but in my eyes Sellers are the worst offenders when it comes to knowing how to work the system. I have just had the unfortunate opportunity to deal with one and my prize for playing, 3 defects. With that said there must be a club to join were naive is defined as not knowing how to rip others off. :end vent:

[holdmygold2]

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@old.crows.nest wrote:

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Sellers are the worst offenders when it comes to knowing how to work the system. 

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That is exactly my point.

Sellers know how to work the system and many many many do just that.

Buyers are just here to buy stuff.

Inexperienced buyers take the most hits, but experienced buyers get nailed too.  For example:  My posts above.   I am not experienced and I just scraped by more than once and consider myself lucky to have done so.  

I don't expect to be as lucky next time.

[holdmygold2]

Typo:  That should have said I am not "inexperienced" and yet I just scraped by.

[rose-dee]

You did say you were tired of explaining, but you've spent a fair amount of space explaining your views on the relative integrity of sellers vs. buyers. 

Care to devote as much space to giving us better details about exactly what happened in your transaction and what sort of item(s) were involved so that we can draw some meaningful conclusions? 

It's easy to make generalized statements about all buyers and sellers based on a vague claim that one was ripped off.  However, that doesn't help any of us -- buyers or sellers -- to understand where problems lie and how to avoid them.  Provide us with specific details and we may learn something useful.

(See my Post #27 for the kind of specifics that would be helpful to understand this situation).

[old.crows.nest]

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@holdmygold2 wrote:

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@old.crows.nest wrote:

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Sellers are the worst offenders when it comes to knowing how to work the system. 

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That is exactly my point.

Sellers know how to work the system and many many many do just that.

Buyers are just here to buy stuff.

Inexperienced buyers take the most hits, but experienced buyers get nailed too.  For example:  My posts above.   I am not experienced and I just scraped by more than once and consider myself lucky to have done so.  

I don't expect to be as lucky next time.

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You say you are not inexperienced yet you knew the system better than most and do not appear to have just scraped by.  I have a feeling you are right about not expecting to be lucky next time. Could be ebay keeps track of Members and the number of cases or monies they pay out to that person.

The Seller that was my Buyer also knew how to work it successfully. Hopefully I will not be so naive the next time.

[old.crows.nest]

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@rose-dee wrote:

You did say you were tired of explaining, but you've spent a fair amount of space explaining your views on the relative integrity of sellers vs. buyers. 

Care to devote as much space to giving us better details about exactly what happened in your transaction and what sort of item(s) were involved so that we can draw some meaningful conclusions? 

It's easy to make generalized statements about all buyers and sellers based on a vague claim that one was ripped off.  However, that doesn't help any of us -- buyers or sellers -- to understand where problems lie and how to avoid them.  Provide us with specific details and we may learn something useful.

(See my Post #27 for the kind of specifics that would be helpful to understand this situation).

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It took some time digging through their post for ones they started but I found this Topic on the Buyer Forum. This might be one of the items alluded to?

http://community.ebay.ca/t5/Buyer-Central/Question-for-Afantiques-or-Someone-Who-Understands-UK-Post...