eBay

orthogon88 · ‎08-01-2019

I have been on Ebay for nearly 10 years, both buying and selling, and things generally went well for me as can be judged from the fact that it is my first attempt to seek community advice. I am sorry this is going to be long but please bear with me.

I looked into the used camera market to replace my broken film camera on Ebay and it is very confusing, since most sellers neglect to provide meaningful descriptions. Since I would like another system camera of the same brand, it is hard not to notice the highly represented Japanese segment of sellers. These are special in using the same words and constructs in their listings, and even the design seems to be coming from some sort of cloning machine. But the main problem is shipping. Many of these sellers say that they use ePacket in the following way: “I send a product by e-paket. I attach the tracking number. Please bid it without worrying.” Language aside, I decided to bite and purchased a camera body, only to find that when it appears to be shipped by e-packet, it is not trackable beyond Japanese borders. Now, after two weeks, no tracking service in the world, including Ebay or Canada Post, which is the intended recipient, had any online indication where the package is. So, I contacted the seller, and got the following reply: “We have been dealing with Canada many times so far. Canada is special. Although EMS can be tracked, it seems that e-paket can not be tracked. Thank you very much.” I then told the seller that I will be opening an INR case and got the following in reply: “Being not able to track is your country's specification as we mentioned. And we have dealt with Canada's buyer many time as we told. Most Canadian buyers know that.” Is something here “lost in translation” or the buyer implies that it is my fault not to be aware that “Canada is special”? The seller then gave a link where, with the help of Google translate from Japanese, I was able to find that the lack of ePacket tracking is a known problem (in Japan). I went ahead and at the two week mark from the shipping date opened an INR case. The seller keeps saying (to Ebay) that he provided tracking which shows that the item is on its way to me, while it actually only shows that it left Japan and vanished. After 48 hours of consideration Ebay puts my case on hold “pending more documentation”, while I am unable to find a link on the web site to provide more documentation. Now, as this is happening, the order page shows that the item with its tracking number is “on the way” with the projected delivery up to September 26, 2019. It is very tempting to say that such delivery standards remind me of Jules Verne novel “Around the world in 80 days” published in 1873. Search on the Canada Post web site returns “not in the system”. However, yesterday, exactly when I went out to buy groceries, I get carded by CP that I got a parcel, although it does not say anything about where it is from.

Now, the question is: could the seller’s behavior be called deceptive? Or, if the item most likely miraculously showed up, I have to shut up, keep it and close the case? Is this my only option? Thank you for your pieces of advice.

marnotom! · ‎08-01-2019

Not to put to fine a point on it, but why is this an issue? Tracking doesn't affect the speed of an item's passage in the mail, doesn't assure the item's delivery, and doesn't solve social problems.

I used to track my items obsessively until I realized that doing so doesn't make a whit of difference as to whether or not I receive them in the condition stated in the listing.

I don't know the ins and outs of ePackets off the top of my head, but it sounds as though there might be agreements in place between postal services for them to be scanned by the receiving country's postal service, and there may not be an agreement like this in place between Japan's postal service and Canada Post.

On eBay at least, tracking is much more for the seller's benefit than the buyer's. The seller needs tracking--or, more accurately, online evidence of delivery--in order to prevail in the event of a claim of non-delivery, such as the one you made.

reallynicestamps · ‎08-01-2019

White space is your friend. So is paragraphing.

Tracking is a Seller Protection.

If a seller does not track a shipment, she is accepting the risk that the buyer will dishonestly claim that the parcel did not arrive and will get a full refund from eBay or Paypal.

If a seller does not use Signature Confirmation on a tracked shipment valued over $750, she accepts the risk that a dishonest buyer will claim that the parcel did not arrive, even though tracking shows it did, and will get a full refund from eBay or Paypal.

EBay gave you a window for arrival.

Has the last day of that window passed?

If it has, go to the Resolution Centre at the bottom of this page and open an Item Not Received Dispute.

Ask eBay to step in and escalate to a Claim.

If the seller cannot prove delivery (not shipping, delivery) you will be refunded.

If the shipment turns up late, a more likely scenario that actual loss in transit, you can return the refund using Paypal's Send Money (Friends and Family) service.

orthogon88 · ‎08-01-2019

As I said, the INR case is already open. I also said that Ebay gave me a window of 72 days. Is this the new normal in the 21st century? In the 19th it was enough, with some effort, for a round the world trip. And finally, are you saying that since a good half of current Japanese sellers use this method of shipping, they are all a risk-loving bunch?

orthogon88 · ‎08-01-2019

I can explain why this is an issue. Having seen evasive behavior of the seller with regard to shipping, I looked at the listing again, and behind repetitive "appearance is beautiful", "optics -beautiful condition", "it works properly" there is not a single word about the light meter. Now, am I going to treated like "all Canadian buyers know that Olympus of this age is going to have a defective light meter"?

femmefan1946 · ‎08-01-2019

EBay's window is based on the shipping service the seller gave.

Sounds as if he chose a cheap slow Surface service, rather than a more expensive, practically overnight Air Mail service.

EBay doesn't consider Disputes until that last estimated date for delivery passes. Only then you have 30 days to open a Dispute.

That 72 days may include the time from opening the Dispute to the last estimated delivery date. So your Dispute might, just might, be open but not yet actioned.

Are you sure the seller is shipping from Japan? The slow Surface shipping is hallmark of sketchey Chinese sellers. What does his negative and neutral feedback say?

are you saying that since a good half of current Japanese sellers use this method of shipping, they are all a risk-loving bunch?

Yep.

Not just the Japanese.

Many non-US sellers, including Canadians, don't use tracking because it is more expensive than going bare in categories where there is little fraud*.

Or where items are very cheap and the odd loss is easily absorbed by the seller.

We do the math.

Most sellers never see a Item Not Received Dispute from one year to another. Some have never had an INR in decades.

*Camera parts are a high fraud category.

orthogon88 · ‎08-02-2019

@femmefan1946 wrote:
EBay's window is based on the shipping service the seller gave.
Sounds as if he chose a cheap slow Surface service, rather than a more expensive, practically overnight Air Mail service.

EBay doesn't consider Disputes until that last estimated date for delivery passes. Only then you have 30 days to open a Dispute.
That 72 days may include the time from opening the Dispute to the last estimated delivery date. So your Dispute might, just might, be open but not yet actioned.

Are you sure the seller is shipping from Japan? The slow Surface shipping is hallmark of sketchey Chinese sellers. What does his negative and neutral feedback say?

are you saying that since a good half of current Japanese sellers use this method of shipping, they are all a risk-loving bunch?
Yep.
Not just the Japanese.
Many non-US sellers, including Canadians, don't use tracking because it is more expensive than going bare in categories where there is little fraud*.
Or where items are very cheap and the odd loss is easily absorbed by the seller.
We do the math.
Most sellers never see a Item Not Received Dispute from one year to another. Some have never had an INR in decades.

*Camera parts are a high fraud category.

Thank you, I think we are getting somewhere. But let us not get distracted. I am talking about a sophisticated camera priced at CAD 100 sent by what amounts to, AFAIK, lettermail. The whole issue of ePacket is confusing. It is praised on some web sites, but those sites also mention that it costs an equivalent of $2, while I was changed $20. In addition, as I was told by the seller, the Japanese sellers know it is problematic in some countries. Furthermore, it is also unclear if it is a Chinese service available via collaboration with Japan Post, or there are two different services with a similar name. Many Japanese sellers apparently mention it under different names. Anyway, in my case available tracking data follow the item only as long as it is within Japanese borders. Now, if this packet I was carded for, is what I think it is, it is as good as delivered, short of me picking it up, and there is still no data anywhere about its whereabouts.. The seller, on the other hand, keeps telling Ebay that he (according to the picture) provided (adequate) tracking. So, I repeat my question, does this look like deceptive behavior to you?

ypdc_dennis · ‎08-02-2019

@orthogon88 wrote:
.... said that Ebay gave me a window of 72 days. Is this the new normal in the 21st century? In the 19th it was enough, with some effort, for a round the world trip. ...

Cost for Jules Verne's 80 days was (after inflation) several million dollars.

72 days sounds like cheap surface shipping via ship for part of the journey. And don't forget that customs processing (duty/tax assessment) can also eat up part of the delivery time for items from outside Canada.

Japan Post gives 2 months for surface vs 2 weeks for packet by air to Canada.

They also say: There is currently a problem where the tracking results for a part of postal items addressed for Canada... This is a problem related to the system of the Canada Post. We have requested to fix this defect, but it may take some time until the problem is resolved.

marnotom! · ‎08-02-2019

@orthogon88 wrote:
I am talking about a sophisticated camera priced at CAD 100 sent by what amounts to, AFAIK, lettermail. The whole issue of ePacket is confusing. It is praised on some web sites, but those sites also mention that it costs an equivalent of $2, while I was changed $20. In addition, as I was told by the seller, the Japanese sellers know it is problematic in some countries. Furthermore, it is also unclear if it is a Chinese service available via collaboration with Japan Post, or there are two different services with a similar name. Many Japanese sellers apparently mention it under different names. Anyway, in my case available tracking data follow the item only as long as it is within Japanese borders. Now, if this packet I was carded for, is what I think it is, it is as good as delivered, short of me picking it up, and there is still no data anywhere about its whereabouts.. The seller, on the other hand, keeps telling Ebay that he (according to the picture) provided (adequate) tracking. So, I repeat my question, does this look like deceptive behavior to you?

If the camera was sent through Japan Post, it does indeed have an ePacket service and the Japan Post webpage devoted to it is pretty clear that it's trackable in "some" countries.

https://www.post.japanpost.jp/int/service/epacket_en.html

At this point, I have no reason to believe there's been subterfuge on the seller's part. Sales to Canada probably make up an extremely small part of most Asian sellers' sales, and I don't think most sellers would memorize every single country where ePackets are or are not trackable. In fact, I'm not even sure the Japan Post website has this information.

Tracking isn't nearly as important as proof of delivery, anyway, and the proof of delivery you require will be the item in your hands when you collect it.

reallynicestamps · ‎08-02-2019

You are basically asking the wrong question.

The question should be :

Has the window for arrival passed?

If it has not, there is not much to do but wait until the window closes.

If it has, open an Item Not Received Dispute in the Resolution Centre at the bottom of this page.

If the seller cannot prove delivery, you will be refunded.

If the purchase arrives after you are refunded, you can return the refund using Paypal's Send Money service.

orthogon88 · ‎08-02-2019

@marnotom! wrote:
@orthogon88 wrote:

If the camera was sent through Japan Post, it does indeed have an ePacket service and the Japan Post webpage devoted to it is pretty clear that it's trackable in "some" countries.

https://www.post.japanpost.jp/int/service/epacket_en.html

At this point, I have no reason to believe there's been subterfuge on the seller's part. Sales to Canada probably make up an extremely small part of most Asian sellers' sales, and I don't think most sellers would memorize every single country where ePackets are or are not trackable. In fact, I'm not even sure the Japan Post website has this information.

Tracking isn't nearly as important as proof of delivery, anyway, and the proof of delivery you require will be the item in your hands when you collect it.

I am sorry, but it does not appear that you read all of my original post. In the best case, the listing is inaccurate with regard to shipping, and there is no excuse of the language barrier, especially after the seller having sent me links to Japanese websites describing that tracking ePacket in Canada is a known problem in Japan.

orthogon88 · ‎08-02-2019

@ypdc_dennis wrote:
@orthogon88 wrote:
.... said that Ebay gave me a window of 72 days. Is this the new normal in the 21st century? In the 19th it was enough, with some effort, for a round the world trip. ...
Cost for Jules Verne's 80 days was (after inflation) several million dollars.

72 days sounds like cheap surface shipping via ship for part of the journey. And don't forget that customs processing (duty/tax assessment) can also eat up part of the delivery time for items from outside Canada.

Japan Post gives 2 months for surface vs 2 weeks for packet by air to Canada.
They also say: There is currently a problem where the tracking results for a part of postal items addressed for Canada... This is a problem related to the system of the Canada Post. We have requested to fix this defect, but it may take some time until the problem is resolved.

Thank you, this confirms what the seller could not answer, and that the shipping price charged to me was a daylight robbery. Do I find myself in the middle of some "misunderstanding" between Japanese and Canadian Post?

The relevance of the cost of worldwide trip of a team in the 19th century costing today several million dollars I, frankly, do not get. I was, however, charged $20 for a $2 service with a window of 72 days, which, obviously is still running. The interesting point is that the window of the delivered package sitting at a local post office is only 15 days. Suppose I send it back, so then another 72 days window and a risk of being lost?

reallynicestamps · ‎08-02-2019

That was dumb of the seller and I hope you will say so in your feedback.

BTW- You have only 60 days from purchase to leave FB, and while we usually encourage leaving it to the last minute, in this case the last minute should be Day 58 or 59.

Once upon a time eBay charged a fee on selling prices but not on shipping.

And this resulted in situations like yours, where the seller moved the value of the item to its shipping price avoiding fees.

EBay caught on and now charges a 10% fee on both selling price and shipping price. Your seller might have thought he was being smart.
Nope.

Has the last date for arrival passed yet?

orthogon88 · ‎08-06-2019

Here is some update. On July 31 the seller opened a case against me, insisting that the item is "on its way". On the next day I got carded by Canada Post and on August 3rd I picked the item up and signed for it. So, it took a little over two weeks, but even when I took delivery, no tracking info appeared anywhere. As I took the camera out, I got what appeared like black dye on my sweaty hands, so I used a tissue with a little rubbing alcohol to wipe the camera. Imagine how dirty the tissue immediately become, and it became obvious that multiple points of paint loss were carefully hidden, using a black felt pen aka "magic marker". The camera suddenly looks well used, and there are two large areas on the bottom where something like fine sandpaper was used. The camera works, but obviously cannot be trusted, and light seals need to be changed (doesn't everybody know that a camera of this age...etc, etc).

Now, I find that on July 31 my "misrepresented shipping" request was closed, because the seller opened the case against me, insisting that the item is trackable and is "on its way". I can now confirm that even when I received it, it is not reflected anywhere I looked. However, I am prevented by the Ebay system from opening an "not as described" case for the same item. So, what can I do short of patiently waiting for Ebay to react? I contacted the seller with the description of his "black magic", but somehow I do not expect much cooperation. on his side.

I attach a photo of the parcel's label with all detectable personal and location info erased. Could anybody help me locate where it states that it was "ePacket" and how much postage was paid? Thank you very much.

orthogon88 · ‎08-06-2019

No, I actually paid CAD 26 in shipping and the seller refuses to refund it in any event. So, I did see many cases of "free shipping" in the Japanese listings, but this it not it. It is a cheap shipping option which is only trackable within Japanese borders.

@reallynicestamps wrote:
That was dumb of the seller and I hope you will say so in your feedback.
BTW- You have only 60 days from purchase to leave FB, and while we usually encourage leaving it to the last minute, in this case the last minute should be Day 58 or 59.

Once upon a time eBay charged a fee on selling prices but not on shipping.
And this resulted in situations like yours, where the seller moved the value of the item to its shipping price avoiding fees.
EBay caught on and now charges a 10% fee on both selling price and shipping price. Your seller might have thought he was being smart.
Nope.

Has the last date for arrival passed yet?

femmefan1946 · ‎08-06-2019

On July 31 the seller opened a case against me,

Do you mean that you had opened an Item Not Received Dispute and the seller responded with proof of shipping, which then became Proof of Delivery on August first when the parcel was delivered?

That RX number at the top right looks like a tracking number to me, but it could be just a bookkeeping thing for the shipping company, like Canada Post's Small Packet USA number.

New problem:

The camera is Not As Described.

While you can call Trust and Safety and ask that the case be reopened and changed to NAD, you should know that you are also covered by Paypal and by the chargeback policy of the credit card you back your PP account with.

Start by calling eBay during the weekday business hours, because in spite of their awful accents, the Utah clerks have a little more authority to deal with complex problems than the overseas staff. Don't be afraid to ask that your complaint be escalated to a manager.

If that doesn't work, PP's Resolution Centre is at the top of your PP account page under Tools.

The drawback is that PP requires the unwanted item be returned to the seller at the buyer's expense. USE TRACKING. This is going to cost you over $40.

https://www.canadapost.ca/cpotools/apps/far/business/findARate?execution=e1s1

You have 180 days from Payment for this.

Finally, you can call the 1-800 number on your credit card and ask about their chargeback policy. Card policies differ.

orthogon88 · ‎08-07-2019

Thank you very much. This is very helpful. Further on your comments, the seller kept insisting to Ebay that he provided tracking, while the "RX" number is the one that only allows tracking within Japan. Now that the item is delivered, there is still no change in its status on Japanese and Canadian Post web sites, or at Ebay order page. It is still shown everywhere as being in transit. Since I presented the seller with my pictures of his camera as received in comparison with those on his listing, he keeps silence.

marnotom! · ‎08-07-2019

I'm going to hazard a guess that the "1685" on the franking mark is the postage paid in yen.

It appears that in Japan, ePackets are International Registered Air Small Packets that have had their postage purchased online.

https://www.post.japanpost.jp/int/service/epacket_en.html

International postage is much more expensive in Japan than in China. I don't think the seller was trying to rip you off on postage, at least.

pjcdn2005 · ‎08-07-2019

The camera was sent small packet registered mail which likely is what epacket is. International registered mail is not trackable in Canada and the website about epacket does say that the tracking is only valid in some countries. It's not uncommon for a seller to think that registered mail is trackable here as it is in many countries so I really doubt that your seller was intentionally dishonest. As far as the cost...I'm not certain but it looks as if $20-$25 is about right. Of course that is just postage and doesn't include packaging materials etc. Japan is expensive and I'm sure that the $2 for epacket that you refer to is from China, not Japan.

I'm a bit confused about what kind of case you opened as there no such thing as a misrepresented shipping case on ebay. If you opened an item not received case and it is now closed, you should still be able to open a return request and if you use a reason that the item was not as described, damaged etc. the seller should pay for return shipping. If you originally opened a return/not as described case than you can't open another one through ebay, you would have to go through PP but they require the buyer to pay for return postage. You could try joining their return shipping program although I don't know if that will be valid for an item already purchased. https://www.paypal.com/ca/webapps/mpp/returnshipping

femmefan1946 · ‎08-07-2019

Further -- if you do open a Paypal case and are told to return the NAD camera for a refund, first get a Solutions for Small Business account with Canada Post.

It's free and you can get your number from the PO counter immediately.

There are some small discounts on shipping labels that will help a little.

Canada Post doesn't much care if you are a "real" business.

The SfSB card also allows you to use Shippo, Paypal and SnapShip services for printing out your postage at home and reveals a couple of shipping services not offered over the counter by the PO.