eBay

kxeron · ‎11-16-2013

All,

I would just like to put forth my opinion about the automatic bidding feature: While it is indeed a useful feature to have and I acknowledge it is available to everyone, I feel that it removes the point of a time-based auction as in 90+% of auctions, any automatic bidding is performed within the last 1 minute of the auction.

The machine-based automatic bidding often creates an environment where an item sits at $0.99, where you bid say half way through $5 by hand, then at the 5-10 seconds to end mark, a machine bids $8 and wins — disallowing a counter-bid of $10. If this were to be an in-person auction with this technique, the auctioneer would then keep the auction going for a while longer permitting further counter-bids until people stop bidding to which the famous "Going once! Going twice! SOLD for ...!" or the sort. eBay doesn't facilitate this and creates an environment of:

A) Only machine-based bidding winning (where all the machines bid at the last second and you can't really scope out the other bidders where there's no curve.)

B) Only those who are willing to bid many magnitudes higher than the item's actual worth wins. (say bidding $25-100 on a $10 worth item)

eBay seems to not keep up with this auctioneering tradition of permitting people to get last second bids in to counter another's. To fix this, it would do eBay well if someone bids at say, the 10 second to mark, to extend the auction countdown until people stop bidding, this would permit people to use automated bidding but stop unfair sniping that the auctioneer tradition (see above quotation) works to counter.

The automated bidding system ALSO creates an environment where someone calls in a "secret bid" that only eBay knows about where nobody knows about it until the auction is over (almost everyone who uses them use them when human reflexes are impossible). IF the auctioneering tradition goes against eBay policy, then I feel these "secret bids" should be a matter of public record where people should be able to put in their own tenders in to counter them — otherwise it's akin to an auctioneering house holding an auction where the whole auction is a scam and someone's already won the item who wasn't even present.

ggsale27 · ‎11-16-2013

When the auction time is up on eBay, the time is up. Sorry , but your idea is not going to work.

kxeron · ‎11-16-2013

@ggsale27 wrote:
When the auction time is up on eBay, the time is up. Sorry , but your idea is not going to work.

I see so often on forums of so many organizations that ideas "are not going to work" simply because policy, structure or law is one specific way. Often refusals by organizations to adapt or change for the better are held back only by bureaucracy because change would be too expensive or require upsetting some ideals of people in high places or cause disruptions in an almighty process that "cannot be interfered with".

eBay is an organization created by people, the decisions of management are not the laws of the universe itself. The studies and research management has performed are subject to flaws just as any other human-performed research. That flaw is potential for omission of data points. All data points should be important, not just the ones that serve organization policy and bureaucracy.

Most times policy doesn't get changed because there is so many levels of bureaucracy required to implement even the most minor of changes, having to perform market research, having to perform cost analysis, having to create committees to determine if change is needed, having to review the information created by those committees, having to have meetings at every stage of everything, and IF the change is accepted in policy, there's the programming team having to create a development implementation of the changes and then testing those changes, then having to get those changes approved, then having to do a change request that has to be signed on by management, then and only then does the change functionally get pushed to the site itself.

So you are right, if the bureaucracy is followed to the 'T', such a change can be made impossible because the amount of bureaucracy will automatically cause the cost analysis to determine any such change to be too expensive and take too much time.

"It won't work" indeed.

marnotom! · ‎11-17-2013

Forget all that. The point of the auction structure on eBay is that the highest bid wins the item.

It doesn't matter when the bid is made as long as the bid entered is the highest.

You seem to be assuming that any machine bid made at the last moment will win an auction, and that's not the case.

kxeron · ‎11-17-2013

@marnotom! wrote:
Forget all that. The point of the auction structure on eBay is that the highest bid wins the item.

It doesn't matter when the bid is made as long as the bid entered is the highest.

You seem to be assuming that any machine bid made at the last moment will win an auction, and that's not the case.

You are correct, however: in conventional in-person auctions, in order for their bid to count it must be public to the rest of the bidders present so that the other bidders may counter-bid. Last second machine bids aren't for all intents and purposes public until the auction is over. Most auction houses will keep an auction going as long as there are bids coming in for the item in question and not simply close an auction at a deadline until bids stop coming in. This method would actually make MORE for the seller as it means those who really want the item can keep upping each other until people don't think it's worth bidding anymore.

The problem with eBay's auction structure is that someone can schedule a bid that will only show up right at the deadline, so say the last bid is $20, you bid $25 — the machine bid bids $26 last second and you have no room to counter-bid $30, you can't even bid $1,000,000 (putting a point here).

The only way it seems to counter machine bids is to bid 2-4 times higher the item's worth and keeping my example going, bidding $50-75 (which by then you may as well not even participate in an auction and just purchase the item from a store).

The point of an auction is to get the highest bid, not create a structure that can be gamed with nickel and diming techniques. I wouldn't mind bidding more but I wouldn't bid $1,000,000 out of the gate on everything I want simply because there's unknown, un-counterable bids that will only appear at the last second.

kxeron · ‎11-17-2013

Apologies for the double post, however the edit system seems odd on these forums:

From my perspective, it seems eBay is more of a poker house where those who count don't show their hands until the last second, not an auction house (where the objective is to get the true highest bid for the item for the seller).

pierrelebel · ‎11-17-2013

"The point of an auction is to get the highest bid,"

???

That may be true if you are a seller. However, buyers generally look at it differently: they are looking for bargains. Otherwise they would go to a mall and buy at full retail price.

Online auctions - using eBay as an example - are not the same as public auctions where the bidding is not time limited. On eBay it is.

However, I think you make too much of last minute bidders - automated or not.

Reality of eBay is that most auction listings do not attract a single bid. That is correct: two listings in three do not attract a bid and end "unsold". On the one listing in three where at least one bid was received, take a closer look. You may notice that many of them only received one bid - the winning bid. There was no contest. Take a further look and check when that bid was actually placed. Once again you may be surprised by the result: very few winning bids were placed in the last few minutes.

In fact, if you take the time to make a statistically valid analysis (minimum 1,000 random completed listings) in any category of your choice, you will notice than less than 10% of all auction listings attract one or more bid in the ten minutes before the scheduled end of the listing.

Why? Because eBay is no longer the "auction" site it once was. The novelty where buyers determine the price has worn out to a large degree. The reality today - in 2013 - is that 90% of all listings on eBay offer immediate purchase at fixed price (price selected by the seller), not the auction format where the price is determined by the buyer. That is what online buyers want today: the ability to buy immediately without the uncertainty of the auction format.

For those who like to play with auction, looking for bargains, the rules are the same for everyone. If you want something, bid exactly whatever the maximum amount of money you are willing to spend for the item. If you get it for less, good for you. If someone else bids more, that is because that other buyer saw a greater value in the item.

And then move on to the next auction thrill.

pocomocomputing · ‎11-17-2013

Lots of numbers quoted in your posts. Where are you getting these "facts"?

pierrelebel · ‎11-17-2013

On eBay of course.

kxeron · ‎11-18-2013

@pierrelebel wrote:

[...]
Why? Because eBay is no longer the "auction" site it once was. The novelty where buyers determine the price has worn out to a large degree. The reality today - in 2013 - is that 90% of all listings on eBay offer immediate purchase at fixed price (price selected by the seller), not the auction format where the price is determined by the buyer. That is what online buyers want today: the ability to buy immediately without the uncertainty of the auction format.

I think the auction format eBay subscribes to has made most auctions that do pan out (if your data is verifiable) where there is a competitive amount of people involved to be what I have already stated. The amount of auctions that your data does state with "1 bid" would just add another option to my "How to win an eBay auction" list:

C) Be the only bidder

Which only quantifies 3 options thus far of how to win, the other two:

A) Bid with a machine so that you can bid "just above" what the curve of the auction itself prescribes at the last second.

B) Bid multiple times higher than the item is worth right at the last moment (to void automated, non-calculated bids).

You're right, people do come to eBay for bargains, but the auction format has essentially stymied people's willingness to participate in auctions. Given this, your data would make sense and makes even more sense on shifting away from the poker-game format "don't show your hand until the last moment" that eBay's auction structure (without the ability to counter last moment bids) seems to encourage. I don't blame people moving toward the "Buy it now" format and not wanting to partake in a poker game where instead of cards, you have dollar amounts and the one with the highest hand that shows it within the last 1 minute wins.

Bidding "the maximum you're willing to bid" by hand will just permit the robo-bidders time to adjust their tactics to undercut you, it's like a carrot on a stick. You bid $20, the robo-bidder bids $21.50 at the last moment. Bidding any other time than the last second is showing your hand in the poker games that are multi-person ebay auctions.

pjcdn2005 · ‎11-18-2013

You're right, people do come to eBay for bargains, but the auction format has essentially stymied people's willingness to participate in auctions. Given this, your data would make sense and makes even more sense on shifting away from the poker-game format "don't show your hand until the last moment" that eBay's auction structure (without the ability to counter last moment bids) seems to encourage. I don't blame people moving toward the "Buy it now" format and not wanting to partake in a poker game where instead of cards, you have dollar amounts and the one with the highest hand that shows it within the last 1 minute wins.

Auctions used to be very popular on ebay and as far as I know, the format has not changed in years. The ability to snipe has also been around for a long time so don't think that the format itself is why some people prefer to use the buy it now feature.

Bidding "the maximum you're willing to bid" by hand will just permit the robo-bidders time to adjust their tactics to undercut you, it's like a carrot on a stick. You bid $20, the robo-bidder bids $21.50 at the last moment. Bidding any other time than the last second is showing your hand in the poker games that are multi-person ebay auctions.

But if your bid was $22 and the other person had a preset maximum of $21.50, you would win. Just like in any auction, the person willing to pay the most is likely to win. Also, bidding before the last second is not necessarily showing your hand because the system will put up your bid only enough to beat the previous bid.

I'm not a big auction person simply because I tend to forgot to be around when they are ending. But my husband loves to bid on auctions and gets a thrill out of trying to beat the last bid before the auction ends. I guess we all have different reasons for liking or disliking something.

pierrelebel · ‎11-18-2013

"if your data is verifiable"

Please do not take my word for it. Why not take a few minutes and verify it yourself. It is relatively easy.

1) go to the investors link on eBay.com (of interest to eBay shareholders) and you will find lots of numbers confirming most of those numbers. Now they apply to eBay in general.

2) then go to the marketplace, select the sub-category of your choice, and test the results. First thing to do is click near the top of the page where eBay offers "All listings", "Auctions" and "Buy-it-Now". Click on all three and determine the percentages. Typically you will find

10,000 total, 1,000 auctions (10%) and 9,000 buy-it-now (90%)

3) then go the "completed" listings (panel at left). Select 200 per page (easier to assess). Select "auctions". Add up all items sold (green price) and unsold (red price). Work out the percentage. You will typically find sold (green) to represent 30% to 35% of all items listed (one in three). Now some sub-category may show a lot of $0.99 sold items. If you are interested in selling at $0.99, that may be for you. I usually ignore that stuff as there is no money to be made selling at $0.99.

4) Finally, check all sold items (green price) individually. Click on number of bids. That will give you the "time ended" and the "time of the winning bid". It is pretty easy to calculate if the winning bid was placed within minutes of "time ended". That will also highlight the few items where a bidding was develop in the last few minutes. It is always fun to watch even if there are few of them.

Results may vary by category. This is why I suggest you select the category or sub-category of interest to you so the result of the analysis are relevant to you.

pierrelebel · ‎11-18-2013

"gets a thrill out of trying to beat the last bid before the auction ends."

Does he ever regret overpaying when involved in a last minute "bidding war'?

femmefan1946 · ‎11-18-2013

C) Be the only bidder

Which only quantifies 3 options thus far of how to win, the other two:

A) Bid with a machine so that you can bid "just above" what the curve of the auction itself prescribes at the last second.

B) Bid multiple times higher than the item is worth right at the last moment (to void automated, non-calculated bids).

Or.

Bid once, early or late is unimportant.

Bid the maximum you are willing to pay.

If some sucker bids more than you did, he paid too much. Silly bidder.

kxeron · ‎11-19-2013

@femmefan1946 wrote:

[snip]
Or.
Bid once, early or late is unimportant.
Bid the maximum you are willing to pay.

If some sucker bids more than you did, he paid too much. Silly bidder.

Thing is,

There are people not interested in "gaming the system",

There are people not interested in being a prude and dropping a huge price tag on somebody else,

There are people not interested in overpaying,

Most people (I hope), however are interested in the item being sold.

If the point central of an auction on eBay is to play a financial game where having a fancy number of how many auctions you've won beside your name is everything and the item(s) are just game pieces, then it does it well.

Despite the low number beside my name (which I don't care about, I care more about being a good buyer and being pleasant in transactions individually than I do that number), I'm here on eBay for the items, not for the games people apparently play to which the only way to definitively win is overpay much higher than the item's worth. (There are ALWAYS people who will bid only $1 higher than you at the last second).

The time limit mechanics on eBay combined with the automated bid facility have turned me off with auctions on this site because there's no way to test the waters and see what others are willing to bid to outbid them unlike in-person auctions, thus the only way is to overpay. I wager as such I will stick to "Buy it now" items to stay away from this rigged game and to enjoy the items I purchase, not enjoy an "auction thrill".

pjcdn2005 · ‎11-21-2013

@pierrelebel wrote:
"gets a thrill out of trying to beat the last bid before the auction ends."

Does he ever regret overpaying when involved in a last minute "bidding war'?

No. He's not usually compulsive when it comes to spending money. That's a good thing since I'm quite good at spending money. lol

reallynicestamps · ‎11-21-2013

There are people not interested in overpaying,

Exactly.

If you bid once and bid your maximum, you will never pay more than your maximum.

briaames · ‎01-23-2014

I didn't even know there was automatic bidding lol,

I was super upset the other day when I put a bid on an item that for 3 days had no bids. I even checked 20 minutes before the bidding was up...

One minute left on the bid I receive and email saying that someone out bidded me. It totally throws me off bidding. I put my bid 3 days earlier obviously some thought he would wait until the last second to place his bid. At least I now know this guy may actually have a life and didn't sit and wait there to mess up my auction.

I will never bid on anything again I would rather pay 1 or 2 dollars more and not wait 3 days to find out someone is lame like that to save maybe a buck.

I have a lot to learn about ebay it seems but it makes me happy to know that just because someone bidded on my item 1 minute before it was up doesn't mean they are sitting in front of the auction all day waiting until 1 minute is up. It is so stupid you can automatically bid at the last second may as well be bidding against robots but at least I know.

Thanks for the info and thanks for letting me rant a bit.

maggiebvintage2010 · ‎01-23-2014

Both you and the OP may want to review this:

http://pages.ebay.ca/help/buy/automatic-bidding.html

There is a big difference between automatic bidding and auction sniping. The following may clarify this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auction_sniping

Live auctions have long employed reserve bids, sometimes the auctioneer will state the maximum reserve and ask if anyone wants to bid higher, most often the auctioneer or another employee will place bids on behalf of the reserve bidder as the bidding proceeds. In this case you are not told what the maximum bid is. And of course at high-end auctions, bids come from both the auction attendees and bidders or their agents by computer or telephone.

Everyone runs their auction the way they want to, and eBay is no exception.

eBay is a huge global marketplace. Never assume that you are the only consumer looking at a listing. By the way, I usually wait until the last possible second to place my bid, both online and in person, and as far as I'm aware, I do have a life, I'm not lame nor am I a robot.