I assume EBAY is ABOVE the LAW then right?

-- There's NO such thing as a CONTRACT 
-- NO such thing as LAW 
-- NO JUSTICE!!! 
... bought an item off ebay - seller would not send the item - opened a case - seller sends my money back I argued that entering into an EBAY agreement is a LEGAL CONTRACT! Ebay said (quote) "we have our policies" oh I said, so you are above the law? regardless, the seller is OFF the HOOK SCOT FREE AND the SELLER RELISTED the SAME ITEM at DOUBLE the PRICE!!! Ebay rep also said, "When you buy online, you are taking a risk" I must have MISSED that NOTICE on their website!!!!l

well my company has "Policies" too but doesn't mean we can negate our LEGAL CONTRACTUAL OBLIGATIONS!

 

EBAY  says "its a legal contract" but then they do NOTHING to enforce that! There should be penalties against the seller, if not banned from the site, but they would just open again under a different name......

 

I was once selling things online... a buyer bought a folding shovel from my website but the wrong one was shipped. The guy called from Texas, said he was a collector of WWII stuff and wanted the "Authentic German WWII folding shovel" for his son for Christmas.. (this was a few days before Christmas). I found the shovel he wanted, bought it for him shipped it to him overnight courier and because of the shipping costs, it was not worth it for me to pay to have the original one returned so I let him keep that too. Cost me $150.00 but I MADE IT RIGHT!

 

---EBAY/PAYPAL is multi BILLION dollar company will not honour a legal contract.. Won't even penalize the CHINESE SELLER even though they REPOST the item at more than DOUBLE the price I bought it for!!! ---- in real estate for example, a buyer and a seller enter into a contract. The Deposit is held in TRUST. If one party wants OUT of that contract, the broker cannot simply decide to give the buyer the deposit back! No! its held in TRUST for a REASON! Maybe the other party DOES NOT want the other party released from the contract! It has to be by MUTUAL CONSENT!!! I'm REALLY **bleep**!

Message 1 of 25
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I assume EBAY is ABOVE the LAW then right?

Just to be clear.

What nation's law?

Canadian? The seller is not in Canada.

US? EBay is a US company, but the seller is not in the USA. And for what it's worth, they seem to do their financial stuff from Switzerland.

China? Since when has there been any law in China?

Message 2 of 25
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I assume EBAY is ABOVE the LAW then right?

The only thing your little rant there did is make me block you. You sound crazy.

Message 3 of 25
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I assume EBAY is ABOVE the LAW then right?

Block away and while you are at it,block me too,he is not saying anything different from what a lot ebay sellers are saying ,in situations  when a buyer bids /"buy it now" and does not want to pay,god knows how many time I have read sellers saying,"this is a legal and binding contract"that the buyer is breaking,and "ebay is always protecting the buyers" etc,etc.

 

Allow both buyers and seller to get upset when ebay does not enforce their own rules/policies or look the other way.

 

Message 4 of 25
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I assume EBAY is ABOVE the LAW then right?

I don't know what he is complaining (or going psycho) about. He got his money back. There are people on here who have paid and have never received their item or their money back. Whine about something that actually screwed you. Oh, and the blocking? DONE!

Message 5 of 25
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I assume EBAY is ABOVE the LAW then right?

Hi everyone.

Please remember to keep the boards friendly and welcoming for everyone by avoiding hostile comments and interpersonal disputes. If this continues, we will have to lock this thread.

Thank you for adhering to the guidelines.

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Help us keep the community friendly and fun for everyone, check out the Guidelines
Message 6 of 25
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I assume EBAY is ABOVE the LAW then right?

Please remember to keep the boards friendly and welcoming for everyone by avoiding hostile comments and interpersonal disputes

 

 

The discussion boards have hundreds of rants from both buyers and sellers as I'm sure you are fully aware of,many sellers roam the buyers central to find potential problem buyers and quietly block them simply to avoid potential problem/headaches,that is their right/ prerogative .after all they are protecting themselves and their business.

 

I also notice some take it further and and announce their intention to the poster ,this  act has nothing to do with protecting their business but everything to do with punishing an individual for ranting,it is useless,irrelevant,unproductive,and hostile.

Just as useless and unproductive as if I contact a seller  who is selling a rock and ridicule her for the "heart shaped rock" she has for sale ,,,,,rather than just not buying it .to think someone is ugly is one thing,to tell to that person that he/she is ugly serves no purpose except gets rid of some you own frustration.

Message 7 of 25
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I assume EBAY is ABOVE the LAW then right?

"EBAY  says "its a legal contract" but then they do NOTHING to enforce that! "

 

Yes, when bidding on eBay a buyer enters into a contract.

 

If the buyer pays and the seller refuses to ship, the seller is in breach of contract.

 

Based on its buyer protection program, PayPal (owned by eBay) refunds the buyer in full.

 

eBay also keeps track of such infractions by sellers. Too many infractions and the seller loses selling privileges on eBay.

 

Now, as a venue - where sellers advertise their products - what else exactly would you like eBay to do?

 

If you feel you have suffered damages because the seller refused to honour the contract, you should consult a legal adviser and may claim damages in a court of law.  The onus is on you to prove damages.

Message 8 of 25
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I assume EBAY is ABOVE the LAW then right?

pierrelebel

 

problem is with the Procedure and the misleading marketing Ebay uses not the incident. 

 

As I found out, there IS NO LEGAL CONTRACT in EBAY! (moral AT BEST!)

 

Ebay needs to post on their MAIN PAGE, as I was told by a "Superintendent" who I had my case escalated to, she told me, 
"When you buy things online, you take your chances" and that bit about "EBAY Policies"

 

EBAY Main Page should read something to this effect:

 

"When buying things online, it is NOT a LEGAL CONTRACT. The seller may back out of the deal with ABSOLUTELY NO REPERCUSSIONS and the seller is Free to RElist the item at whatever price they feel.

 

THAT is a more accurate expectation. Why won't they put that on the main page? ... Or even in really small letters buried somewhere?

 

Of course they wouldn't because THAT would be BAD for business right?

 

What they SHOULD do is HOLD that money in escrow. If there is a complaint or problem, that money stays in Escrow until its RESOLVED by BOTH PARTIES.. not ONE sided!

 

Thankfully I learned my lesson on a small item.. what if it was a multi million dollar real estate deal or irreplaceable artifact that could not be duplicated?

 

the seller can just decide they want out of the "LEGAL CONTRACT" and give the deposit back!??? NO! Thats called "Specific Performance" in LAW.

 

Message 9 of 25
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I assume EBAY is ABOVE the LAW then right?

You are taking this WAY TOO seriously.

Message 10 of 25
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I assume EBAY is ABOVE the LAW then right?

On ebay France sales are in fact as you describe, not binding.

 

Everywhere else they are legally binding but since the law is for all practical purposes unenforceable, might as well not be.

 

Bilked buyers have feedback and detailed seller ratings to express their disapproval, a few bad DSRs and the seller will be kicked off, which is about all you can expect ebay to do.

Message 11 of 25
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I assume EBAY is ABOVE the LAW then right?

 
You can always close your account if you're unhappy with ebay. You're not forced to remain here.
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Non payers should get unpaid item strikes and be added to block bidders lists. Period.
Message 12 of 25
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I assume EBAY is ABOVE the LAW then right?

"Non payers should get unpaid item strikes"

 

They do.... if sellers take the time to report them.  Too many sellers do not (whatever their reasons).  And that is part of the problem.

Message 13 of 25
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I assume EBAY is ABOVE the LAW then right?

kxeron
Community Member


To bring additional perspective to this table,

I very much agree with the sentiments of the original post. On seller profiles, there are no signs posted saying "I/WE MAY REFUSE SERVICE AT MY/OUR SOLE DISCRETION" like brick and mortar stores often have, so a buyer is often mislead to believe that the seller has made their listings reasonably accurate without a doubt, setting reserve prices as the seller wishes, ensuring that the countries they'll ship to are marked correctly, so forth.

But this isn't the case, on eBay there is no way a buyer can determine if a transaction will succeed or if the time they spent on that listing or searching in general is in vain or if the seller was lazy on the listing and didn't completely fill everything out (including setting reserve prices for auctions to ensure a minimum is had, it isn't the buyer's concern a seller is trying to dodge fees)

When you buy something at a brick and mortar store, the moment you hand the money over, it is accepted and the receipt is tendered ("the transaction"), the title for that item is transferred to you — thus why you can pay for a bottle of pop and open it right in the store. So if you say buy a piece of furniture but can't take it home immediately, the furniture may still be located at the store building, but the receipt is proof that your money was accepted and that the item belongs to you solely. When a transaction happens on eBay, eBay is acting as an agent of the seller and it is the seller's sole responsibility to ensure they provided eBay all information on expectations on how a transaction is to happen.

A seller's failure to plan for these eventualities where they "didn't get what they want" or something akin does not constitute a failure on the part of a buyer. Caveat Emptor is to be had, yes, but this is why laws and regulations exist to ensure consumers in general are protected and can pursue tangible action against a merchant that fails to perform and to seek damages and relief. A refund is a refund, it isn't relief as the consumer isn't given their time back nor anything that amounts to it they spent on searching, reviewing and finally making the transaction.

ENFORCEMENT:

As far as enforcement, it is indeed true that legally this is problematic due to the international nature of eBay. However there's ways indeed even within eBay's system.

If a seller wants to pull out, they should have to expressly indicate on the listing before any transaction attempts are made that the seller reserves the right to refuse service, to which a buyer should be unable to pay until the seller manually issues a Paypal invoice (this is the key feature here). This would mean that the transaction hasn't happened yet until the seller wants it. If they fail to enable this warning, the option to cancel the transaction should be unavailable to the seller and thus if they do not ship, the buyer can then seek an item no-show dispute.

If a seller is found to be refusing service without warning, they should have their listings suspended on an exponential scale for each infraction, starting with 1 day (2 days, 1 week, 2 weeks...). This would encourage sellers to be accurate on their listings and to ensure buyers are aware of the sellers who may cancel at any time. It would also financially impact sellers who refuse without warning as their other listings couldn't sell while suspended and also prevent them from immediately re-listing the item they just canceled on. It would grant the buyer relief as they know the seller has had concrete action taken against them.

If a seller DOES list with that warning, then a buyer should be capable of too walking away from the at any time, be able to cancel themselves right up until that invoice is issued (constituting acceptance of the transaction: "Go ahead, pay me, I accept", having their hand out at the cash register so-to-speak). Obviously a buyer would be penalized for every unilateral cancellation they could do, rate limiting them from rapidly buying on those listings to prevent abuse, then canceling, to which the first would be 1 hour until they can make their next purchase attempt, then exponentially again, 6 hours, 12 hours. Then when they get to 1 day they would have to contact eBay customer support to have their account unlocked and explain why they were rapidly canceling on those types of listings. Obviously in this mode, a seller would not be penalized if they provide this warning (which would be notable and be before the item description) and turn down a purchase from a buyer.

The point is, the current system provides buyers no tangible relief, just refunds which are little more than a spit in the face to sellers as if saying "Your money isn't good enough for me, go away".

Message 14 of 25
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I assume EBAY is ABOVE the LAW then right?

Edit time ran out, correcting this last line:


The point is, the current system provides buyers no tangible relief, just refunds which are little more than a spit in the face to buyers as if saying "Your money isn't good enough for me, go away".

Message 15 of 25
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I assume EBAY is ABOVE the LAW then right?

You make it much more complicated than need be.

 

Sellers have the option to use a reserve.  If they do not and refuse to ship because the auction closing price was too low, they are earning "defects" from eBay that will eventually affect their ability to list.

 

http://pages.ebay.ca/help/sell/sellinglimits.html

 

Not a perfect system but it is more that a "slap on the wrist" for sellers abusing the system.

Message 16 of 25
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I assume EBAY is ABOVE the LAW then right?


@pierrelebel wrote:

You make it much more complicated than need be.

 

Sellers have the option to use a reserve.  If they do not and refuse to ship because the auction closing price was too low, they are earning "defects" from eBay that will eventually affect their ability to list.

 

http://pages.ebay.ca/help/sell/sellinglimits.html

 

Not a perfect system but it is more that a "slap on the wrist" for sellers abusing the system.


The problem is that that kind of approach is only on the "larger picture", it doesn't grant any one specific person relief from a seller who partakes in the kinds of activities this thread describes. "Eventually" cannot come soon enough for a buyer who has been deprived of an item by a seller who refused to cede and take a loss when they didn't set a reserve cost or didn't set their "Ships to:" countries correctly.

 

At the minimum, a seller should be incapable of listing anything new under that category for a week afterwards to immediately penalize the seller for refusing to admit fault for not completing their listing correctly and setting reserves or other details. This too would have an effect of preventing them from immediately re-listing that item as it was originally.

 

eBay's system seems to be designed so sellers can opt not to take financial losses through bad business or through lack of due diligence. All they have to be willing is to take a defect in their account and they can move forward, a seller sufficiently large with high limits can therefore be very picky and choosy after a sale happens. Look at how the items can and have been immediately re-listed after the cancellation and refund, that is not penalization, that is indeed a slap on the wrist.

Message 17 of 25
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I assume EBAY is ABOVE the LAW then right?

Always beware of what you wish for.

 

More complications usually equals worse for everybody to little or no perceptible advantage for anybody.

Message 18 of 25
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I assume EBAY is ABOVE the LAW then right?


@afantiques wrote:

Always beware of what you wish for.

 

More complications usually equals worse for everybody to little or no perceptible advantage for anybody.


Most of the "Complications" are the result of eBay applying oversight or additional process in the incorrect places:

 

  • Look at how shipping costs are really not accurate on the site with sellers fraudulently bundling the retail costs of an item while running a 99 cent start auction, yet eBay has spawned forth complex programmes surrounding shipping.
  • Look at how many foreign sellers can list completely different items as "variants" without them being taken down while more local sellers rack up all kinds of defects for doing things like entering a phone number into one's listings.
  • Look at how eBay is alleging that they're cracking down on piracy and illegitimate items through VeRO meanwhile pirated software may be preinstalled on a computer that is being sold and eBay will not take action.
  • Look at how eBay has complex software on their servers to check if the item is restricted or if there's something wrong with the item description but do not program that software to ensure sellers are providing all of the required information to ensure a transaction is 95 percentile accurate.

and in this case:

 

  • Look at how sellers can proceed to refuse service for their own errors yet eBay has placed advanced processes in place to drill buyers on theirs.

 

Currently a lot of eBay's processes place an unfair onus upon the buyer and lack sufficient visible controls from an outsider perspective. Sellers who peruse this forum may know the ins and outs of "defects" and so forth, but buyers ultimately need more visible support to help place eBay at a more neutral position in transactions, rather than being "eBay and the seller" as one party and "the buyer" as the other.

 

The Buyer Protection Programme isn't what it should be.

Message 19 of 25
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I assume EBAY is ABOVE the LAW then right?

 on eBay there is no way a buyer can determine if a transaction will succeed

 

Except by reading feedback and Detailed Seller Ratings

 

And, using your furniture store analogy, it is not uncommon for a Real World purchase to fall through after the customer has paid..

The store may not be able to deliver the chosen item in the chosen finish. (Most furniture stores order in custom finishes - not all are like IKEA)

The store may refuse to deliver to a difficult address, although this is a labour question really. The store is responsible for the safety and security of its workers.

In such cases, there is not a willing buyer and a willing seller, a part of contract law that seems to have been overlooked.

The normal way of ending the transaction is a full refund and an apology.

And. 

The store may go bankrupt and all layaway items lost (This happened to some friends of mine, in the days when credit cards were unusual. They got neither furniture nor the money they had already paid).

 

 

Look at how shipping costs are really not accurate on the site

This is happening less and less, now that the monetary advantage has been removed. In any case, which is cheaper: A $5 item with $10 shipping or a $10 item with $5 shipping?

Several posters have mentioned that they 'subsidize' shipping by including it in the asking price. This is particularly done with Free Shipping, where the entire shipping cost is 'hidden' in the asking price.

 

Message 20 of 25
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