Important Message for USA sellers who sell internationally RE: SHIPPING AND GLOBAL SHIPPING PROGRAM

[biggymbofan]

I have recently noticed that ever since sellers are automatically enrolled in the "global shipping program" (i.e. sellers get enrolled when sellers click "accept" to conditions I am sure they have never even read) for sale listings for anything shipped to Canada have changed for the worse. Now shipping is automatically priority which is often double the cost of first class and there is an "import charge" on top of that. This import  charge is applied regardless of where the item was made (American made products should not have duty if made in the USA- its called FREE TRADE!). Furthermore, I have no idea why there would be an import charge for preowned children's clothing (and neither do the sellers I have asked the question to). These shipping settings automatically show up without the sellers knowledge and are ridiculous. Sellers don't even know about these charges half the time. I have had to send a screen shot of the listing to make one seller finally understand what was happening on my end!!

If your sales have dropped off this might be why!!

As a buyer, at first I was happy to simply contact sellers before bidding. They would gladly change the settings and everything would be OK however it seems like I am doing this way too often and it is just not worth my time anymore. Especially when I have to educate sellers about how to opt out of the global shipping program which is not easy to figure out if the seller doesn't even know they are enrolled in the program in the first place.

If sellers don't get up to speed and opt out of the global shipping program (which is just a matter of a few clicks and easy to do) I won't buy from you. Luckily most big sellers and businesses have already done this. Its the smaller sellers who really need to hear this message.

[marnotom!]

A couple of things you might want to get straight before you repost your rant where U.S. sellers will actually see it: on one of the U.S. eBay boards:

1.  Free trade may eliminate duties, but it doesn't eliminate taxes.  All goods sent by mail with declared values of over C$20 can be assessed and charged GST/PST/HST/QST.  The job to collect these taxes for postal imports falls to the Canada Border Services Agency but they've become pretty lax about this.  When my wife and I started buying online in the late 90's, about three-quarters of the things we purchased from outside Canada got stopped and a tax bill was added to them.  It's now been a few years since we last had a qualifying item taxed by CBSA.

2.  My understanding is that many sellers who are using the Global Shipping Program without their knowledge have likely unwittingly blundered into it buy misunderstanding the instructions of a link or button on the new eBay User Agreement, thinking that it's something to click if they agree to the new eBay user agreement when, in fact, it's an agreement to opt into the GSP.

Here's a link from the Canada Border Services Agency on the taxing of item sent by mail (or commercial carrier).  You'll note that there's no exceptions for pre-owned items and that a ten dollar handling fee is charged on top of the taxes owed:

http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/import/postal-postale/duty-droits-eng.html

[biggymbofan]

Thanks for the information. marnotom!

I still have a few questions about the eBay import fees and eBay's global shipping program- GSP.

1. There are GST/HST "zero rated supplies" which are not taxable such as: drugs, medical devices, basic groceries, personal tangible property, and intellectual property. So does anyone know if used childrens clothing is considered a personal tangiable good? I know that if I privately purchase a used vehicle, legally I do NOT need to pay GST (I assume because it falls under personal property?). I would think this would also apply to private purchases of used children's' clothing so there should be no GST on used children's clothing. Is that correct?

2. Shouldn't  all purchases under $20 should be except from duty? If so why does eBay charge import fees for them?

3. Why does eBay charge import fees for books when they are except from duty?

[marnotom!]

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@biggymbofan wrote:

1. There are GST/HST "zero rated supplies" which are not taxable such as: drugs, medical devices, basic groceries, personal tangible property, and intellectual property. So does anyone know if used childrens clothing is considered a personal tangiable good? I know that if I privately purchase a used vehicle, legally I do NOT need to pay GST (I assume because it falls under personal property?). I would think this would also apply to private purchases of used children's' clothing so there should be no GST on used children's clothing. Is that correct?

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I'm in BC and the last time I purchased a vehicle privately I had to pay the tax owing on it before I could license and insure it.  It may be different in other provinces depending on if public or private insurance is used, as well as other factors.

Used clothing is subject to GST unless sold by a charity or, as you suggest, a private seller who is not registered to collect GST.

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@biggymbofan wrote:

2. Shouldn't  all purchases under $20 should be except from duty? If so why does eBay charge import fees for them?

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Don't fall into the trap of confusing duty with taxes; they're quite different things.

Having said that, most items imported by mail or commercial carrier with declared values of under C$20 are exempt from taxes and duties.  However, as defined by the GSP agreement for buyers, "import charges" are not just taxes and duties.  You're basically paying a service fee to the GSP administrator (Pitney Bowes) for a below-threshold purchase.  It used to be a separate line item in the listing, but it's now folded into the shipping charge.  It's all in the GSP terms and conditions for buyers:

http://pages.ebay.ca/shipping/globalshipping/buyer-tnc.html

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@biggymbofan wrote:

3. Why does eBay charge import fees for books when they are except from duty?

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Again, don't confuse duty with taxes.  Books are still subject to GST and, in fact, they're one of the exceptions to the "twenty dollar rule" in that none of them get off the hook (in theory).  Have another look at that link I posted in my first post.

[i*m-still-here]

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@marnotom! wrote:

A couple of things you might want to get straight before you repost your rant ...........................

[biggymbofan]

I am still a little foggy about the difference between duty and taxes but for the purpose of this discussion it is irrelevant since both are incuded in eBay's import fees. What is important is that it is unclear whether GSP has been set up to take into account duty/tax exceptions and items that are "zero tax" rated.

Thank you for clarifying that even when goods do not qualify for taxes and duty (i.e. they are except) the GSP Global shipping program  still charges "import fees" to cover eBay's "administrative" costs  for running the program. As an international buyer I have yet to see the benefit of paying these hidden fees and will not buy from sellers who are enrolled in this program.

[i*m-still-here]

Hi Biggy.

Don't worry about the tax vs. duty thing too much.

There are a lot of problems with the program and your first post was right on.  

I responded to marnotom with my post above (that was not directed at you BTW)  because telling you that you need to "get a couple of things straight before you continue your rant" is very offensive (at least to me).

You've got a pretty good understanding of the program.

 If you go to the buyer's board here just above  you'll see endless threads on the GSP from buyers upset with it.

You are not alone.

[pjcdn2005]

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@biggymbofan wrote:

I am still a little foggy about the difference between duty and taxes but for the purpose of this discussion it is irrelevant since both are incuded in eBay's import fees. What is important is that it is unclear whether GSP has been set up to take into account duty/tax exceptions and items that are "zero tax" rated.

Thank you for clarifying that even when goods do not qualify for taxes and duty (i.e. they are except) the GSP Global shipping program  still charges "import fees" to cover eBay's "administrative" costs  for running the program. As an international buyer I have yet to see the benefit of paying these hidden fees and will not buy from sellers who are enrolled in this program.

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I don't expect sellers to know which items are tax exempt or duty free but if they did any research into the program they would realize that it is not in their best interest or in their buyers best interest to use GSP for low cost items. Many sellers just use it either totally unaware or don't care about how it affects the buyers.

[pjcdn2005]

I responded to marnotom with my post above (that was not directed at you BTW)  because telling you that you need to "get a couple of things straight before you continue your rant" is very offensive (at least to me).

You've got a pretty good understanding of the program.

 If you go to the buyer's board here just above  you'll see endless threads on the GSP from buyers upset with it.

You are not alone.

You seem to object to any posts giving out the correct information about GSP regardless of the tone of the post. Do you really think that it is best just to ignore the misinformation that some post about the GSP?

[pierrelebel]

"for the purpose of this discussion it is irrelevant since both are incuded in eBay's import fees. What is important is that it is unclear whether GSP has been set up to take into account duty/tax exceptions and items that are "zero tax" rated."

Yes, Pitney Bowes does take into account zero-rated goods (basically non taxable such as basic groceries etc) IF properly described as such (*). However, you will find very few groceries items or other zero-rated imported on eBay.  PB is fully aware of the $20.00 exemption (with a few exceptions) for goods coming by mail.  One difference is that Pitney Bowes does charge a small administration fee ($4/$5) even if the shipment attracts no tax; on the other hand, their administration fee is smaller than Canada Post ($9.95) when tax is collected by Canada Post on relatively low value items ($50 for example).

(*) We have seen a few instances of items that should have been tax exempt or zero-rated miscategoried on eBay, resulting in tax being charged.

Most shipments coming from the USA enter Canada duty-free although it has been noted that some items will attract duty depending where they were manufactured (guitars imported from the USA and made in Taiwan for example attract a higher duty rate than those manufactured in China - go figure!).

"As an international buyer I have yet to see the benefit of paying these hidden fees and will not buy from sellers who are enrolled in this program."

I totally agree with you.  The program is not suitable for most low value purchases by most Canadians.  Unfortunately, many American sellers use GSP despite eBay advising against it (eBay recommends GSP for parcels only (not lettermail stuff) with value averaging $50.  There are other technical problems with GSP such as PB not breaking down taxes and brokerage fees on their invoice nor indicating their GST/HST registration number.  These problems have been mentionned many times before to the management at eBay.ca but no action has been taken yet to correct the problems.  Words, words, words, but no action.

[i*m-still-here]

PJ......  when you say misinformation in the posts I've come to see that what is experienced as accurate by one poster is not by another.

What I see is that there's a lot of superfluous information handed out that really matters to no one other than the poster himself and those who agree with that viewpoint.

Posting that someone is ranting when one has an opposing view is very offensive, and posting that you are going to set that person striaight ........................ well, that is too.

[rose-dee]

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@i*m-still-here wrote:

Posting that someone is ranting when one has an opposing view is very offensive, and posting that you are going to set that person striaight ........................ well, that is too.

_____________________________________________________________________

I agree, and I believe you were quite right to point out the discourteous (at best) or offensive (at worst) tone.  

I understood completely what you were saying - sometimes on these boards the content can be spot on, but the manner in which it's delivered is really disrespectful.  It doesn't hurt for people to be reminded to stop and think about using ordinary politeness when posting.

Sometimes I think that the vitriole that goes on in the US discussion boards spills over here.  Perhaps people go there, get used to the nasty, sarcastic and unnecessarily insulting treatment, then come here and forget their Canadian manners. 

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[marnotom!]

When a good proportion of objections to the Global Shipping Program are in the form of the belief that the GSP is charging for duties that should have been eliminated by NAFTA,it's not irrelevant to point out that NAFTA's purpose is not to eliminate taxes.

Biggymbofan, if you're still confused about taxes and duty, see if this helps.  When you buy a Mexican-made cordless drill from Canadian Tire, you still have to pay whatever sales taxes your province and the feds charge on that purchase.

If you buy a Mexican-made cordless drill from a GSP seller, you won't have to pay duty on it, but you will have to pay the same taxes that Canadian Tire would make you pay, plus a fee to the GSP.

If you buy a cordless drill manufactured in Taiwan from a GSP seller, you'll probably have to pay a bit of duty on it plus the same taxes that Canadian Tire would make you pay if they sold it to you, plus a fee to the GSP.

Does that make things any clearer?

[marnotom!]

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I agree, and I believe you were quite right to point out the discourteous (at best) or offensive (at worst) tone.  

I understood completely what you were saying - sometimes on these boards the content can be spot on, but the manner in which it's delivered is really disrespectful.  It doesn't hurt for people to be reminded to stop and think about using ordinary politeness when posting.

Sometimes I think that the vitriole that goes on in the US discussion boards spills over here.  Perhaps people go there, get used to the nasty, sarcastic and unnecessarily insulting treatment, then come here and forget their Canadian manners. 

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I won't deny that the opening to my post was pretty toughly worded, but I don't see anybody pointing out exactly what rankled. 

Was the original post a rant?  I can't see it being construed as anything but.  It came straight from the gut without much in the way of supporting evidence, had some all-caps and underlined boldface in a single block of text that was a bit tricky to read.   Did the original post have some misinformation in it?  It certainly did.  Is the issue with the term "get straight"?  Toughly worded, sure, but why "offensive"?  Is it alienating the non-heterosexual community or something?  😄

Perhaps some of the attitudes of the U.S. boards has rubbed off on me a bit, but I can tell you that if that post made its way to the U.S. Seller Central board, it would likely be getting a lot worse than my opening remark.

[i*m-still-here]

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@marnotom! wrote:

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Was the original post a rant?  I can't see it being construed as anything but.  It came straight from the gut without much in the way of supporting evidence, had some all-caps and underlined boldface in a single block of text that was a bit tricky to read.   Did the original post have some misinformation in it?  It certainly did.  Is the issue with the term "get straight"?  Toughly worded, sure, but why "offensive"?  Is it alienating the non-heterosexual community or something?  😄

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ARE YOU KIDDING ME????

Everything you post just tops your last post.

IS IT ALIENATING THE NON-HETEROSEXUAL COMMUNITY OR SOMETHING? 

THAT IS HANDS DOWN THE MOST OFFENSIVE POST I'VE READ ON THESE BOARDS TO DATE...................Are you so totally unaware????

Is this your Tough Love in action?

[marnotom!]

I'm taking that to read that you object to my use of supporting details when making an argument and injecting my arguments with a dash of absurdist humour.  🙂

I think most people who read that statement in context will figure out that I'm deliberately bungling two different meanings of the word "straight".

[lizzier-ca]

I'd like to remind everyone to keep things civil and not to get into interpersonal disputes.  Let's get back on the topic of USA sellers who sell internationally.

Regards,

LizzieR-CA

[chimera148]

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marnotom! wrote

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Perhaps some of the attitudes of the U.S. boards has rubbed off on me a bit, but I can tell you that if that post made its way to the U.S. Seller Central board, it would likely be getting a lot worse than my opening remark.

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Not unless it came from you.

[biggymbofan]

marmtom,

WOW! You make it difficult for me to keep ignoring your so called "toughly worded" post. The thing that rankles (in reference to your post) is that you were rude and condescending. In terms of misinformation, you are certainly correct preowned children clothing is not on the exception list but I have yet to hear of a case when Canada Border Services has actually charged duty on it. I agree I made a mistake, but that does not justify your poor manners.

I also want to point out that I never said free trade eliminates taxes, and yet you went on and on about that in more than one post. In respect to my free trade comment, I now see how my first post could have certainly been more clear and could even be viewed as bit misleading. But I guess it isn’t any more misleading than eBay’s claims to sellers that the GSP will increase sales, is more safe, and under (certain conditions) even reduces shipping costs for buyers. The reality is buyers end up paying SIGNIFICANTLY more for shipping and fees so they won’t bid as high and sellers will make less of a profit. Its simple. none of the other "facts" you seem to care so deeply about matter.

Again, thank you for clarifying that even when goods do not qualify for taxes and duty (i.e. they are exempt) the GSP Global shipping program still charges "import fees" to cover eBay's "administrative" costs for running the program. As an international buyer I have yet to see the benefit of paying these hidden fees and will not buy from sellers who are enrolled in this program.

[i*m-still-here]

biggy............ I think that when marnotom first responded to you that you may have thought that this is the way we respond to posters on this board and took it in stride.

It was arrogant and condescending and not the norm here.

I saw nothing in your original post that was blatantly incorrect and many are complaining about the same issues you touched on.

You are right on that the cost of shipping is increased and that sellers are getting opted in without their consent.

There are a myriad of addition complaints regarding the GSP (shipping time is increased, difficult refunds, suspected opening of parcels to name but a few).

Most complaints also focus on the fact that the GSP charges taxes on ALL items over $20 while the Canadian government has chosen not to tax its citizens that way.

marnotom and few others defend the program on the grounds that it works for some items.

I see the program as bad news for Canadian buyers and indefensible.

It MAY work out for a small percentage of items, but that does not even come close to justifying the program's existence as being in the best interests of Canadian buyers.

What is the service that the GSP is providing in exchange for our money?:  In most cases, what get in return for our money is that our transactions are made more difficult.   

I'm befuddled at the way the program is defended so passionately by some, but to each his own.