***eBay Workshop: New Item Not Received Process 3-4 PM ET, Wednesday, January 26, 2005***

[carly@ebay.com]

Topic: eBay Workshop: New Item Not Received Process
Host: eBay Staff
Date: Wednesday,January 26, 2005
Time: 3:00 PM – 4:00 PM ET
Location: Canada Town Square

Description: This January, buyers will be able to initiate the new Item Not Received process when they have not received an item they paid for or the item they’ve received is significantly different from what was described in the listing. During this online workshop, eBay staff will answer questions about how buyers and sellers will be able to use this new process.

You can also leave your questions here in advance if you are not able to attend, and then we can answer them during the workshop.

Hope to see you there!
Carly

[moira@ebay.com]

HI nickie*nine*doors,

The e*cheque process is different that the Interac Direct Payment process. The Interac Direct Payment (IDP) is a real-time, live transaction. If you buy something and key in your PIN number you would see it clear out of your bank account instantly. The reason it can be removed instantly: you, your card and your PIN are in the same place at the same time so the bank assumes you want the transaction to happen.

With e*cheque, it is really a cheque without paper. PayPal gets your permission electronically to send a "cheque", they give it to their bank electronically, they give it to your bank electronically and your bank looks at the agreement you signed with PayPal and says, ok, here's the money. The money goes back to PayPal's bank and back to PayPal and then into your account. And it only happens on weekdays. It is essentially like writing a paper cheque without sending it in the mail.

Moira

[crule@ebay.com]

*christmasangel* posted:

"What happens if the seller communicates with their buyer and the buyer is still not happy?" and "If you people were to read the various boards answering new buyers and their expectations, I think you might know why there are concerns."

*christmasangel*, you're absolutely right that sometimes you can do everything right and you still have a buyer who is not happy. I've had buyers where it seemed like nothing would make them happy, even if I went above and beyond any reasonable expectations they could have. The new INR process won't be able to fix that problem -- you still may have unreasonable buyers. However, this new process is an improvement over the old process in this regard: now if the buyer escalates to a claim, your communication with the buyer has been stored in the eBay system.

So by way of example, say your buyer receives an item they purchased from you and they file a significantly not as described complaint. You respond that you'd be willing to accept the item as a return, and you'd refund their money upon reciept. The buyer should be happy with that, but they aren't -- they threaten to escalate to a claim unless you send another item, and they want to keep the original. You refuse, so they escalate to a SPPP claim. As soon as they do so, the customer service rep that evaluates the claim will see the prior conversation, and most likely reject the claim without even notifying you, based on the prior discussion thread.

In the old process you'd have to put in a lot of work educating the customer service representative (CSR) about what emails had gone back and forth, the fact that you'd been reasonable and lived up to your obligations, and that the buyer had tried to extort undeserved value out of you by threatening to file a claim. In the new process, you won't need to do any of that -- the CSR will be able to see everything immediately at the time of filing, which better protects you and saves you a lot of time and stress. That's why sellers are better protected by the new process than what we had before.

Thanks for the postings!

Colin

[*christmasangel*]

Sounds reasonable to me. 🙂 Thank you!

[moira@ebay.com]

Thank you all for coming to this session on the Item Not Received process. We appreciate your participation. This thread will be kept open until Thursday morning (Jan 27th) in case you did not get a chance to post your questions and we will be back to answer it.

A special thanks to Pal, Crule and Vera_j for coming and answering questions with us. Thank you also to Carly for setting up this time.

If you get a chance, come to the Town Hall Meeting tomorrow with Rob Chesnut.

Kind regards,
Moira

[lilalligators]

I'm trying to file a claim - but it's requiring I go through paypal as that's how I paid, but I've since changed email addresses - thus accounts and I don't have access to my transaction number required for the claim - any ideas how I can proceed?

[moira@ebay.com]

Hi lilalligators,

Could you please send me the information to my email address so we can work with you? My email is moira@ebay.com and I will make sure you get an answer.

Cheers,
Moira
eBay

[catseye*]

Sorry, late again.

I've read thru everything, and still feel that we (as Canadian sellers) are still going to be faced with a lot of keyboard-happy Americans demanding their items in 3 days. It's just going to be easier for them to make a pest of themselves and waste sellers time giving them information they have already been given.

For instance, here is the communication my buyers get:

1. eBay EOA with all payment instructions.
2. my automated EOA with all payment instructions, immediately after auction ends.
3. a transaction receipt when they go thru my checkout.
4. an automated email thanking them for payment and telling them a further email will be sent once I've shipped.
5. the last email saying I've shipped, and CLEARLY stating shipping times to the US. And asking them to keep the email as reference.

And I STILL get nasty emails a few days later wanting to know if I've sent their package, where the heck it is etc, etc.

I think this is just going to make things worse because they'll be able to file and make a further pain out of themselves...even tho they've had AMPLE communication!!

Lainey
(sorry to be so grumpy, it's not a good day...)

[cornerstone*]

Response to #31

cornerstone* posted:
"All it is designed for is to make sellers HAVE to accept paypal."

I can't see how the new INR process makes sellers have to accept PayPal. In fact, this whole process is only applicable to non-PayPal transactions! If the thought is that this process is so onerous that people will use PayPal to avoid it, I must respectfully disagree.

I can see it. Wanna know how? I can see sellers being practically forced to accepting PayPal because under a 10 day window they are not even able to wait for a payment from a buyer. Regular mail is not that fast and that is assuming that the buyer puts the payment in the mail that night so it is picked up in the morning! 10 days is 8 mail days. A seller will HAVE to take PayPal in order to meet the 10 day window. Especially since the 10 days is not 10 business days but 10 calendar days.

"eBay has no right to interfere with a sellers customers."

The INR process is simply a communications process for buyers and sellers, nothing more. It imposes no new terms on sellers/buyers, and it puts no new requirements on sellers. How do you feel it interferes?

A sellers customers are a sellers customer. eBay’s one and ONLY customer is the seller. The buyers relationship to eBay is only, and ONLY patrons in this global online flea market. eBay has no right to interfere with a sellers customers, just like a Flea Market Manager has no right to interfere with his Vendors customers

"How does eBay plan to prevent a buyer who takes 9 days to pay via Cheque from filing a INR?"

eBay doesn't know when payments are made and received, so we have to base the timelines off of the item close. When a buyer files an INR dispute the process asks them when they paid, and if the payment date is close to the filing date the buyer sees a special page telling them that they might want to wait longer, because sellers don't ship until payment clears, and it can take time for payment to clear. We don't block them from filing, but we do present them additional information to educate them in the case that they file right after they pay.

eBay doesn't know when payments are made and received That sentence alone tells me that eBay has no idea what they are doing in reguards to this. If eBay doesn’t know what the delivery times are then eBay should not be limiting the payment timeframe to 10 days. This entire system is revolving around a honor system and people lie. They can simply say when they sent in payment, wheter or not it is true, they can say it.

"How does eBay account for the postage delays?"

The process specifically addresses delays due to shipping, particularly in cross-border transactions. In all cross-border transactions the buyer sees a special page explaining that shipping, customs, and payment can all cause delays in item delivery, and that buyers should be prepared to wait longer in international transactions.

The buyer should be prepared but they wont. If they have not in the past with out INR then they absolutely wont with INR.

"Where does eBay have the time to look after INR complaints when it doesn't have time to answer valid ones through customer service?"

Well, I can't speak to the customer service delays, but I know this is something we work very hard on. This new INR process is an automated process, so it doesn't require any more time from customer service representatives. The SPPP claims process is managed by customer service representatives, but the new INR process doesn't change the SPPP process... it will continue to work as it has for the past several years.

So this is automated? Ah isn’t that beautiful!

"Buyers are the Sellers customers eBay. Your customers are the sellers. This does not help the sellers or the buyers this will just cause an uneasy trust between them."

eBay has an obligation to both buyers and sellers. If all sellers were completely responsible, responsive, and ethical, then it might work for eBay to interact only with sellers. Unfortunately, that's not always the case. *cornerstone, based on your feedback (99.6% positive) I'm sure you take care of your buyers. I'd wager that you'll never even see an INR dispute, or just a couple per year, because your buyers will never have a need for the process. But for those buyers who find themselves in a transaction with a seller who is non-responsive or even unethical, this process will be important for them.

My feedback percentage is not 100% because I ran across buyers you can not please no matter what I did for them, they used feedback to try to extort me, they threatened me and I still was willing to work with them, however there was almost no way to avoid these people and most of them were because I filed a NPB against them. Oh but INR will be different, it will make it easier for this absolute scum factor on eBay to extort, threaten and get even with their sellers. Thank you!

All the new INR process provides is a clear action path for buyers who find themselves faced with a transaction problem. Instead of leaping to conclusions, filing negatives, or doing chargebacks, this process educates buyers about reasonable expectations, opens a line of communication between the buyer and the seller, and provides a clear and reasonable path to problem resolution or redress in the form of an SPPP claim. There are no new burdens or requirements put upon sellers by the INR process, though we do believe that sellers will want to respond to INRs filed by their buyers so as to address their concerns and avoid escalation to a more complex and time consuming situation.

Sorry but nope, in theory it would be a good idea, in reality it will be a terrible nightmare. This should be an opt out program for those with 99.0% or higher feedback and a mandatory opt in for 89.9% or less feedback. Buyers are free to contact me anytime (oh yeah thanks for removing the email address in contact eBay, that doesn’t waste any of my time having to look up user IDs, NO it “sure” doesn’t) but this INR is not what you are selling.

Is it a coincidence that when you released this you also allowed sellers to block nonPayPal users? No way and I think you know what I am talking about. INR is simply a lie you are telling eBay sellers that really is a way to force buyers and sellers to use PayPal exclusively.

The coincidence is not enough evidence in itself, but when you include the time frame of 10 days into it, it becomes evidence that this is just a way to force sellers/buyers to use only PayPal and this is very wrong and it will back fire on eBay. Which is too bad, eBay was the best until about mid 2003, since then it has been a slowly sinking ship. This INR will just act as a Iceberg and all the positive thinking and worshiping by anyone wont change this.

Thanks for the questions, *cornerstone!

Colin

Thank you Colin, know that when I am talking to you I am actually voicing to eBay and not you personally, I don’t know you and I know you are only an employee. Have a nice day.

[mnkcollectables]

Ebay is far from perfect. A few questions,that you problay can't answer. What about the charge back scam, that sometimes happen's. Wow i got my item. What i can get my money back to, and keep my item. Just have to say that I did not get it. I read this in feedback. This buyer even left him pos feedback. He said recieve item, great seller, then he did charge back. What is up with that. What about seller's protection. There are none. We sold a sportscard to someone, from the States. He paid with paypal. A weak later he was wanting a refund. He said,that he did not get it. we asked him to give it some time. So there i knew it was a scam. We have had only one in about 800 transaction. And if there is one more big amount we will be no longer accept paypal.When we have a problem. We contact ebay. We just get leave me alone email back.

[cornerstone*]

We sold a sportscard to someone, from the States. He paid with paypal. A weak later he was wanting a refund. He said,that he did not get it. we asked him to give it some time. So there i knew it was a scam. We have had only one in about 800 transaction.

Been there, done that many times myself. Problem with these buyers is that they pull this more than once, and on most things they buy are under $10 and they know that almost all sellers will give into their scam because it is cheaper than a chargeback or a negative feedback.

It seems that this INR is another example of eBay not listening to its customers. The only real positive encouragement eBay is getting for this INR are those bribed by eBay as in Voices.com. Which their voice is in a conflict of complete interest since they are basically paid by eBay in free trips to SJ and eBay shirts.

No real eBayers, in the real world seem to support this INR. Why? Because we know that eBay is not perfect and that there are nightmare buyers out there, and most of us have dealt with them.

(No nondisclosure agreement for me, so I am able to voice my opinions and voice my thoughts about eBay and give them honest feedback.)

[nickiproton]

I'm an avid seller , and have been for some time and the problem which im having just recently due to this new program is that my paypal account is getting my funds locked due the impatience of buyers who cant seem to wait for their items to arrive. Payments made and items shipping takes time more so than this supposed 10 day complaint filing. I have this clearly stated in my auctions on how long shipping takes and before I receive any emails or any phone calls my account is frozen on another impatient buyer. This said has cost me numerous headaches as certain items sent through Canada Postal Service don't have tracking numbers as they are considered small packages. Small packages do not have tracking numbers therefore other than a receipt that the item was shipped I cant rebuttal the fact I sent the item to the buyer and if he/she receives it and says nothing to paypal... they receive the item without paying for it!
Tell me how is this program supposed to work for the SELLER because it seems I'm getting screwed every way!
Nick P
www.gotstyle.ca
www.dynamicnetworks.ca
cashcrx@homail.com

[catseye*]

those bribed by eBay as in Voices.com. Which their voice is in a conflict of complete interest since they are basically paid by eBay in free trips to SJ and eBay shirts.

Yup, that free lunch sure was one heck of a bribe!! I think you're way out of line with that comment!!

[cornerstone*]

Oh am I way out of line? I appologise for that because my intention was to be way of the line, it was to be so far from the line that I no longer see it.

Voices is a useless program of eBay’s. They are bribed. The only ones who do not see it are either voice members or friends of a voice member. I have heard many of them speak and they always talk about their perks of being in a voice program, trips to SJ or eBay Live, and other things. If they are ever seriously questioned by anyone they hide behind their “Nondisclosure agreement”.

Voice members are not representatives of anyone, they are not elected. In simple terms, they are eBay yes men and if they say no, they are ignored anyways. Voices is around so eBay can say they get user imput. So if my opinion of voices is way out of line, what do I care? I am entitled to my opinion and until I (and many others) see otherwise that they are more then what I just mentioned I will continue to voice my opinion on them. Out of line in your opinion or not, doesn't matter to me.

[catseye*]

Since your knowledge of the Voices program is nil, how could you possibly have an informed opinion of it!

[cornerstone*]

Who said it is nil? I have been talking to enough Voice members on the boards for years to be able to base an opinion on.

[moira@ebay.com]

*cornerstone, I'm sorry but you are incorrect in your depiction of the Voices program. It is very representative of the cross section of buyers and sellers, high volume, low volume, from different provinces and states, in different businesses, Powersellers and not. We select people because we want them to contribute. We don't bring in "yes" people. We want to hear their opinion on products we are creating and to challenge us to make better products. Voices is taken very seriously by this company. You are misinformed.

Regarding INR, you are stuck on the idea that someone can file a claim after 10 days. THEY CANNOT FILE A CLAIM AFTER 10 DAYS. INR allows the buyer to initiate conversation with the seller. That is all. The fraud claim process begins at 30 days as always.

Think of it from the buyer side: if have not received an email or phonecall from your seller acknowledging that your payment was received and your order was shipped -- you are left hanging out there wondering if there is a problem with the transaction. You have to wait 30 days in silence before you can file a claim for your money back via eBay or PayPal. You file a claim after 30 days and the seller suddenly responds to you and says the item is in the mail but they had not got any emails about the transaction.

With the INR process, the only real change is an added area of the My eBay dashboard that allows for discussion between the buyer and seller. At 10 days, it is not a fraud claim. It is an alternative method of communication between buyers and sellers. Instead of email, you post to each other within eBay. What if a seller overlooked one order, wouldn't it be better to get the communication at 10 days rather than a fraud claim in 30 days and negative feedback?

10 days is NOT the length of time it takes to get the package - it is the length of time a buyer may spend waiting to hear news of their package and it has not yet arrived.

Regards,
Moira

[moira@ebay.com]

catseye*,

I cannot see you getting an increase in emails because of the new process. You have a great process. This was designed to help out when a seller does not have a good process. I've dealt with sellers who are either doing too many other things to be accurate or too many sales to remember mine. I email them and hear nothing for days. Then I call them if they are nearby and not a fortune in long distance fees. I would certainly use the INR process for a couple of purchases I had for Christmas. I heard NOTHING, NADA, BUBKIS from two sellers. I had no idea if the items were ever coming so I bought replacement gifts in order to get something under the tree.

eBay will not be modertaing the conversation and picking a side. It is just between you and the buyer. I think your process looks great and you should notice no change in your business. It does not solve that all buyers and all sellers are not as good as the other... but who can solve the nature of humans?

Regards,
Moira

[harley2951]

Two years back 2002 I was suspended from E.bay through no fault of my own. My son-in-law tried to list some items (comic books) through my computer and using my credit card. (I had no knowledge) then when something sold. He did not send the article. I was forever banned - have sent many explanations, forms ID copies,
but as soon as I enter Maryd1953ca@yahoo.ca to attempt a purchase on E-bay. I am under suspension. Could you help me or direct me to someone who could. Thanks in advance.
PS> he now owns his own computer, address, and credit card. and buys and sells freely, but I am left out in the cold

[catseye*]

If you're banned, how did you manage to resurrect yourself with a new ID?

[cornerstone*]

Moira, you are the first pink in all of eBay that I have seen actually say this THEY CANNOT FILE A CLAIM AFTER 10 DAYS. everyone who sells on eBay, that is their main concern that I am reading. If eBay pinks would just talk common sense language (like you do) instead some secret wink-wink language they would confuse a whole lot less people. Thank you for clearing that up.



harley2951, that is too bad to hear, if that is the honest truth you should be given a second chance. If your ID was Maryd1953ca@yahoo.ca it was changed by eBay more then one year ago when they rid eBay of email address IDs. Your ID would now be a member1234567. You could email any pink and ask them for their help but their hands might be tied. If that's the truth it is most unfortunate.