eBay

needsmorerobots · ‎10-14-2023

I sent off a CD to a customer in the Netherlands back in August.

In mid September, the customer received notice the package would be delivered soon. The customer was given a tracking number from Dutch Post.

The package never arrived. A look afterward by my customer on the Dutch Post tracking info shows the package does not exist.

The CD was returned to me. It arrived at my house yesterday. I have since contacted the customer.

After an investigation into what happened, it was revealed Canada Post made a mistake.

The address of the packing slip, order receipt and customs form all match what the customer provided as their address. The mistake was Canada Post who added a letter to the address making the address appear as a unit instead of a house.

As additional information, my customer never paid for tracked shipping through me. Even though I added the correct VAT paid code, Dutch Post charged my customer for it.

How do I go about getting reimbursement from Canada Post? My customer is out a CD and I'll be out retail and shipping cost for that CD.

pjcdn2005 · ‎10-14-2023

I have never heard of Canada Post adding to an address. Did you print a label online or did you pay for a label at the post office? What service did you use...small packet or tracked packet?

You can contact Canada Post and ask for a refund of the postage although I suspect that since you have the package back that they won't do much but I could be wrong.

needsmorerobots · ‎10-14-2023

I paid for the label at my local Canada Post.

The parcel was sent small packet international air with no tracking.

I forgot to mention the CD was returned for insufficient address.

And correction from the first post, for my customer through Dutch Post, it doesn't say package doesn't exist, it says "unknown parcel".

recped · ‎10-14-2023

Consider yourself extremely lucky that you got you cd back and at no cost (small packet returns usually incure return postage), you need to fully refund the buyer, have them open a Not Received request and then refund from that. You will at least get your fees refunded but the shipping you paid for is gone.

"unknown parcel" = tracking number not in the system

As additional information, my customer never paid for tracked shipping through me. Even though I added the correct VAT paid code, Dutch Post charged my customer for it.

I'm confused, how could Dutch Post charge your customer VAT if they never delivered it?

"What else could I do? I had no trade so I became a peddler" - Lazarus Greenberg 1915
- answering Trolls is voluntary, my policy is not to participate.

mrdutch1001 · ‎10-14-2023

If the Dutch Post "charged" the customer...doesn't that sound like an attempted delivery and refusal by customer for payment of VAT and customer did a "return to sender"???

needsmorerobots · ‎10-14-2023

@recped wrote:
I'm confused, how could Dutch Post charge your customer VAT if they never delivered it?

I'm unsure of that.

I know it's uncommon, but it has been done in the past.

I had a customer from Belgium last year who refused his CD because Belgium post was going to charge him nearly $25 in VAT. It was sold for $2 retail.

I received the CD at my address without charge. The parcel was clearly marked with the VAT paid code.

I refunded the customer in full.

needsmorerobots · ‎10-14-2023

@mrdutch1001 wrote:

If the Dutch Post "charged" the customer...doesn't that sound like an attempted delivery and refusal by customer for payment of VAT and customer did a "return to sender"???

Customer claims he paid it.

He said he wanted the CD because it's a rarity.

I can confirm the CD is out of print and Canada is the only place you can locate it. I've sold two CD of the same group to European countries before for those exact reasons.

valuestore · ‎10-14-2023

I go by the policy, if it surpases 30 days customer gets an automatic refund no matter what the circumstances. If the buyer contacts you, encourage them to file an 'item not recieved claim', that will refund all the applicable taxes and sets things right. To run a business you should have rock solid policies, learn as you go, take the loss or setup before hand.

needsmorerobots · ‎10-14-2023

@valuestore wrote:
I go by the policy, if it surpases 30 days customer gets an automatic refund no matter what the circumstances. If the buyer contacts you, encourage them to file an 'item not recieved claim', that will refund all the applicable taxes and sets things right. To run a business you should have rock solid policies, learn as you go, take the loss or setup before hand.

The customer would've got their money or the CD (they choose the CD this time). I was hoping to hold the Canada Post office accountable by getting them to cover. If I can't get Canada Post to pay, the CD gets shipped out Monday morning regardless.

fh991586 · ‎10-16-2023

@needsmorerobots wrote:

As additional information, my customer never paid for tracked shipping through me. Even though I added the correct VAT paid code, Dutch Post charged my customer for it.

Slightly off topic, but how can you pay the VAT in advance with Canada Post? I do not have that option with a Pitney Bowes stamp meter...

pjcdn2005 · ‎10-16-2023

EBay automatically adds the VAT to the buyers invoice when they are required to.

lotzofuniquegoodies · ‎10-16-2023

@pjcdn2005 wrote:
EBay automatically adds the VAT to the buyers invoice when they are required to.

@needsmorerobots

@fh991586

@mrdutch1001

Except that it only shows up on the packing slip which all shippers do not include a copy of with the ebay package label. Alternative method would be to add(paste) to notes section and customs "should" see when they can scan the label. If customs doesn't know (hand writing on a legal document is not acceptable) it has been collected they then try to re-collect. With Shippo there is an option to add a detailed customs invoice that can be filled in that makes it easier to relay the info to customs at the arriving end. In practice the VAT/Duties collected should automatically go to eBay labels when that is service being used. (Including a copy of the physical packing slip is standard with courier shipments.)

Below are some of the common terms for duty/taxes/insurance being paid etc. There are numerous other variations.

FOB, FREE ON BOARD FOB price, all costs and risks borne by the shipper before the cargo passes through the ship’s rail.

CIF, COST INSURANCE FREIGHT plus insurance, all costs of goods to the port of destination, the insurance is borne by the shipper.

C&F, CFR COST AND FRIEGHT have the same meaning. Compared with CIF, it just has no insurance.

DDP: What Is Delivered Duty Paid (DDP)?

Delivered duty paid (DDP) is a delivery agreement whereby the seller assumes all of the responsibility, risk, and costs associated with transporting goods until the buyer receives or transfers them at the destination port. ( With eBay they are the middle person for these transactions). This is the step where the ball is being dropped. Customs folks are not really happy when they need to play guessing games.

For Canada and many other countries to save the aggravation of the delivery driver to collect any fees owing, it is collected in advance where standard delivery is in play. If customer picks up they can also pay at that point. This is most likely what happened with the buyer paying twice. Because the delivery address was modified for some unknown reason the parcel ended up getting returned to the seller

As for UR tracking that is mostly used for CP purposes to confirm that the label was used only once. The tracking works in eBay's system for the USA and a few other random countries as an accessable number. In testing in the US mail system if you contact a depot they are able to physically see any tracking scans along the way along with current status. Imagine it works the same way with Scandanavia, Spain, Portugal and a few other random countries. (From my testing).

These are the kind of scenarios that can happen when customs is unable to know for certain if customs was collected in advance. 2nd VAT collection payment requests, refused orders followed by returns with either seller having to pay for return shipping/customs or if they get lucky....or not.

-Lotz

I had a situation a few years ago with a shipment to Cyprus. I included a copy of the packing slip for back up regarding VAT being paid plus noted it on the shippo bonus form. When it arrived in Cyprus it was being held for proof the customs had been collected. I forwarded a copy of my pdf of customs form to customer. They showed customs and parcel was released without a 2nd payment for taxes. On a hunch I checked UR tracking on eBay and it was detailed. Same with Cyprus mail service showing the customs hold and eventual delivery to receiver. This is why having email addresses on customs documentation is a REQUIRED standard.

marnotom! · ‎10-16-2023

@lotzofuniquegoodies wrote:
@pjcdn2005 wrote:
EBay automatically adds the VAT to the buyers invoice when they are required to.
@needsmorerobots
@fh991586
@mrdutch1001

Except that it only shows up on the packing slip which all shippers do not include a copy of with the ebay package label. Alternative method would be to add(paste) to notes section and customs "should" see when they can scan the label. If customs doesn't know (hand writing on a legal document is not acceptable) it has been collected they then try to re-collect.

@lotzofuniquegoodies , my understanding is that EU customs is supposed to "know" that VAT has been collected by the results of a scan of the item. The problem is, the information isn't always successfully transmitted to the appropriate country's customs bureau and that's when VAT gets charged to the importer again. This isn't a problem exclusive to items from Canada, by the way. The EU is aware of this problem but by the looks of things they expect the exporters or their agents to institute their workaround while it gets fixed.

lotzofuniquegoodies · ‎10-16-2023

@marnotom! wrote:
@lotzofuniquegoodies wrote:
@pjcdn2005 wrote:
EBay automatically adds the VAT to the buyers invoice when they are required to.
@needsmorerobots
@fh991586
@mrdutch1001

Except that it only shows up on the packing slip which all shippers do not include a copy of with the ebay package label. Alternative method would be to add(paste) to notes section and customs "should" see when they can scan the label. If customs doesn't know (hand writing on a legal document is not acceptable) it has been collected they then try to re-collect.
@lotzofuniquegoodies , my understanding is that EU customs is supposed to "know" that VAT has been collected by the results of a scan of the item. The problem is, the information isn't always successfully transmitted to the appropriate country's customs bureau and that's when VAT gets charged to the importer again. This isn't a problem exclusive to items from Canada, by the way. The EU is aware of this problem but by the looks of things they expect the exporters or their agents to institute their workaround while it gets fixed.

@marnotom!

It would be nice if they knew in advance but from their perspective it is just another shipment and sellers use all sorts of methods for shipping internationally. What would connect the shipment to the any data (payment).

-Lotz

dinomitesales · ‎10-16-2023

@needsmorerobots wrote:
The address of the packing slip, order receipt and customs form all match what the customer provided as their address. The mistake was Canada Post who added a letter to the address making the address appear as a unit instead of a house.

I find it hard to believe that a single letter made it so that the package was undeliverable, but I don't know the intracacies of the Dutch postal system. Since you bought the postage at the Canada Post counter then this was just clerk error, as all they're doing is manually typing in the information from your package into their computer. Unfortunately, humans are prone to make mistakes, especially when it might be a Canada Post clerk who isn't super profficient at typing; has English as a second language; or who is in a rush to finish your transaction due to a line-up of people at the post office. Furthermore the clerk is unlikely to transcribe the VAT information onto the actual label (unless you told them to), and there isn't any way for a VAT Paid code to be included in the Electronic Advanced Data of a label purchased at the counter (Canada Post's expectation is that business transactions like this should be processed and printed online, where such functionality exists). The clerk also probably didn't put the buyer's phone number on the label (unless you specifically asked them to and gave them the phone number) - if the phone number was clearly visible on the shipping label then PostNL should have at least tried to ring the customer to get clarification on the address.

For all these reasons and more (higher discount when buying a label directly through eBay) it's always beneficial to print the postage online. The only time people should be purchasing postage at the counter is if they're using stamps, and in that case they should ensure the clerk is filling in all the pertinent details of the transaction (and they should also be crossing their fingers that nothing goes wrong at customs of the destination country since any tax/VAT information isn't being transmitted electronically).

As to your question of a refund - I wouldn't count on it. There's no reason for Canada Post themselves to refund this label, unless you get an exceptionally sympathetic customer service agent (but since you already spoke to them and they DIDN'T offer you a refund then it's unlikely). You could go and plead your case to the manager at the postal outlet in question, but there is no way for them refund a transaction like this on their computer, so you would be at the mercy of the manager manually taking money out of the till to give to you and then attempting to reconcile the numbers at a deficit at the end of the day (this is a lot to ask of a person probably making a dollar or two above minimum wage).

I would agree with recped that you should be lucky you even got the CD back. Chalk the cost of shipping as a loss/expense on your taxes and move on.

needsmorerobots · ‎10-28-2023

After some wrangling with Canada Post, I was able to establish their post office made the mistake that caused the customer's CD to be sent back (I kept all the paperwork to prove this).

Canada Post reimbursed me the shipping cost.

The CD is now on it's way back (with the correct address attached) to the customer.

My customer filed with his country's postal service to be refunded the VAT. Hopefully they will have the same result I did.

needsmorerobots · ‎10-28-2023

@dinomitesales wrote:
@needsmorerobots wrote:
The address of the packing slip, order receipt and customs form all match what the customer provided as their address. The mistake was Canada Post who added a letter to the address making the address appear as a unit instead of a house.
I find it hard to believe that a single letter made it so that the package was undeliverable, but I don't know the intracacies of the Dutch postal system. Since you bought the postage at the Canada Post counter then this was just clerk error, as all they're doing is manually typing in the information from your package into their computer. Unfortunately, humans are prone to make mistakes, especially when it might be a Canada Post clerk who isn't super profficient at typing; has English as a second language; or who is in a rush to finish your transaction due to a line-up of people at the post office. Furthermore the clerk is unlikely to transcribe the VAT information onto the actual label (unless you told them to), and there isn't any way for a VAT Paid code to be included in the Electronic Advanced Data of a label purchased at the counter (Canada Post's expectation is that business transactions like this should be processed and printed online, where such functionality exists). The clerk also probably didn't put the buyer's phone number on the label (unless you specifically asked them to and gave them the phone number) - if the phone number was clearly visible on the shipping label then PostNL should have at least tried to ring the customer to get clarification on the address.

For all these reasons and more (higher discount when buying a label directly through eBay) it's always beneficial to print the postage online. The only time people should be purchasing postage at the counter is if they're using stamps, and in that case they should ensure the clerk is filling in all the pertinent details of the transaction (and they should also be crossing their fingers that nothing goes wrong at customs of the destination country since any tax/VAT information isn't being transmitted electronically).

All customs paperwork is done on my computer at home.

The phone numbers get added to the customs paperwork in my home (if CP is adding it to the parcel I now have to question).

All the employee needs to do is scan it, but every now and again you'll get some new person who doesn't understand.

It's a lesson to myself to be more watchful in future.

And as for the VAT code labels, I create those too. I attach them seperately to the outgoing parcel, making sure they don't get covered when CP's shipping label is added.

If I had enough sales to afford staying home and making what I do full time, I would. As it stands I work a full time job and there's no one to pass off a parcel for pick-up at my place of residence.

The CP office I use is on my way to work every morning, but if I have to I can switch to the office a block from my workplace.

The difference is do I want to drop off parcels in the morning and not worry or use the one closest to my work over lunch and hope the line-up isn't too long.

I've looked at Ebay's discount program but from my last check, I'm getting better discount rates with my CP business card, especially for US shipping. My American customers benefit each time they buy.