How would you handle this?

I'm wondering if any experienced sellers have ever set up a "swap" transaction on eBay, and how you would do it?

 

I've had a proposal presented to me by another seller, who wants to exchange a few items I'd be interested in for the same number of items of mine that she is interested in.  Value-wise it's a fair swap. 

 

I'm thinking that if each of us set up an auction for our items at a mutually agreed time, starting at, say $0.99 with a BIN of, say, $1.50, (and with free shipping), that, if necessary, we could each cancel any other bids that happened to occur.  The auctions would have to have the shortest possible timeframe -- 3 days is the shortest, I believe (I don't run many auctions).

 

The alternative would be for each of us to create a Fixed Price listing, of say, $1.00 with free shipping, the title consisting of the other's eBay ID, and just one generic picture.  The description would contain only a notice that the listing was for that particular eBayer.  The risk I can see with this is that if someone else picked up the item before the intended purchaser did, we'd have a big problem.  I have  used this approach for my custom listings, but not for a "swap".  BTW, I've been told by an eBay staffer that they no longer want ordinary sellers using "Exclusive" listings -- too bad, that used to be the easy answer years ago. 

 

I want to try to protect both of us from undue difficulties or trust issues.  My inclination at the moment is to use Plan "A" (mutual auctions).  Any other suggestions?  I don't really want to do this outside eBay, for various reasons.

 

   

Message 1 of 45
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Re: How would you handle this?


@jt-libra wrote:

@ack_thbbft wrote:
tsk tsk tsk. The regulars here advocating selling outside of ebay and showing members how to circumvent ebay rules.

 


Just hold on a half a second.  Rose-dee wants to do the right thing ... the discussion has revolved around whether or not this is a violation since no money is changing hands.  In her original post, she has outlined many different ways to achieve this exchange on eBay, all of which are very complex and many of us feel unnecessary since, again, in the end, there is no money involved.  To state that we're all advocating selling outside of eBay is simply not true.

 

A secondary issue here is the inability to include an e-mail address using the eBay messaging system.  There are countless reasons why one might want to do this and to assume that the reason is to conduct a transaction outside of eBay is absurd!  You meet a lot of nice people during the course of your transactions ... people with whom you have a lot in common and would like to pursue a dialogue.  Perhaps you have mutual friends; perhaps you want to discuss hobbies, travel or any number of things which are so much easier and convenient to do with through personal e-mail messaging.

 


Specifically it was mentioned on how to send your email to a member. This is blocked by Ebay. Circumventing that block is against ebay's policies.

 

Specifically it was mentioned that a seller 'delist'  items and then sell them outside of ebay. This is against ebay's policies.

 

Both of these can land the seller in hot water.

 

The reason for these suggestions was exactly to conduct a transaction outside of ebay. If the original poster said they just wanted to chat, then it would be more understandable, but they were actually soliciting advice on how to do a swap through ebay and others encouraged her to sell outside of ebay and even told her how.

 

 

It's very clear that people here are advocating selling outside of ebay and circumventing ebay's policies.

Message 21 of 45
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Re: How would you handle this?

The only legitimate way to do it and the simplest is to set up 2  sales and each other buy each other's items at fair market value. Fair market value does not have to be the retail price but an  adjusted price based on volume and it being a wholesale transaction.

 

Anything else is avoiding ebay's fees and since they only know each other through ebay, any way else is against ebay's policies.

 

If this was not true, then ebay would allow emails to be sent through their system so that people can conduct business or conversations outside of ebay, but this is against their policies.

Message 22 of 45
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Re: How would you handle this?

Regarding no money trading hands.

 

The intrinsic value of money is very low. It is because it is a medium of exchange that it has a much higher perceived value. Without going into the debt is money argument, at its simplest money is a store of value. This store of value is achieved at an individual level by producing something, or promising to produce something  that somebody else wants. They then trade their money which has their store of value in it, for those items they desire and then that person can use that money that now has their store of value in it to purchase other items.

 

So in it's simplest forms, money is used as a medium of exchange because it is a fungible store of value.

 

Trading directly without money does not decrease the store of value in the items traded.

 

This is recognized by the government, as well as ebay, and many other 'middlemen'.

 

Any middleman will not facilitate a trade without getting what they think is their fair share.

 

This amount is agreed to by the buyer and seller in ebay. If the buyer and seller only know each other because of the middleman, ebay, then all future business is a result of ebay introducing the two, and both agreed according to the terms of service that any transactions would be done within the ebay environment.

 

 

 

Message 23 of 45
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Re: How would you handle this?


@ack_thbbft wrote:

 

If this was not true, then ebay would allow emails to be sent through their system so that people can conduct business or conversations outside of ebay, but this is against their policies.


We know that that's their policy; it doesn't mean we can't have an opinion on it.  I think it's absurd, unnecessary and paranoic and serves to make sellers feel that, without these tight reins, we'd all resort to deceptive, fraudulent and dishonest business practices.  It's offensive.

 

I don't know who you are ... I don't recognize your name.  If you're an eBay staffer, then you're not telling us anything we don't know, but one of the reasons sellers come to this board is to sort out situations they're unsure about.

 

If you're simply a seller, your self-righteous approach is not appreciated.

Message 24 of 45
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Re: How would you handle this?


@jt-libra wrote:

@ack_thbbft wrote:

 

If this was not true, then ebay would allow emails to be sent through their system so that people can conduct business or conversations outside of ebay, but this is against their policies.


We know that that's their policy; it doesn't mean we can't have an opinion on it.  I think it's absurd, unnecessary and paranoic and serves to make sellers feel that, without these tight reins, we'd all resort to deceptive, fraudulent and dishonest business practices.  It's offensive.

 

I don't know who you are ... I don't recognize your name.  If you're an eBay staffer, then you're not telling us anything we don't know, but one of the reasons sellers come to this board is to sort out situations they're unsure about.

 

If you're simply a seller, your self-righteous approach is not appreciated.


Everybody has opinions. Opinions are great. Opinions are what makes things interesting.

 

Advocating circumventing Ebay policies is not opinion.

 

It's not being self righteous pointing out clear violations of ebay policy that if the seller listens to can get them in trouble with ebay.

 

If you choose to go outside of those tight reins, you are being deceptive and dishonest. You specifically agree to allow ebay to be the middle man in transactions that are a result of using ebay. Going outside of that agreement is breaking the agreement and is dishonest.

 

Please refrain from ad hominem attacks because you don't like the message. Thank you!

Message 25 of 45
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Re: How would you handle this?

"advocating selling outside of ebay "

 

???

 

Did you read and understand the original post?

 

There is no selling involved here.  Just a straight exchange of goods with no money changing hands.

Message 26 of 45
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Re: How would you handle this?


@pierrelebel wrote:

"advocating selling outside of ebay "

 

???

 

Did you read and understand the original post?

 

There is no selling involved here.  Just a straight exchange of goods with no money changing hands.


I did read the post. Did you read mine?

 

I never said Rose-dee the original poster was trying to sell outside of ebay.

 

I did say that other responses provide specific recommendations on how to sell the items outside of Ebay and how to circumvent ebay's policy about exchanging email addresses  and how to circumvent paying fees to a transaction that was only possible due to ebay  being the facilitator.

 

Specifically, posters provided a method of how to circumvent Ebay's blocking of sharing email addresses. This is against ebay policy and guidelines and also against forum rules.

 

Another specifically suggested to delist items already on sale on ebay and send them to the buyer.  I did not suggest that Rose-dee was going to do that, but the poster volunteered that as a method to send listed items to a buyer.

 

Both of these are against ebay policy both in ebay and this forum.

 

What is not allowed:

 

Discussing ways of getting around eBay policies

 

Encouraging others to violate eBay policies or the eBay User Agreement

 

 

There is no such thing as a straight exchange of goods. The government, ebay and all middlemen would disagree with that statement. There is an exchange of stores of value, which is what every transaction is regardless of whether money is used as a medium of exchange or not.

 

Message 27 of 45
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Re: How would you handle this?

jt-libra

 

I totally agree with you.

Message 28 of 45
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Re: How would you handle this?

Well, I see my simple query has sparked a rather heated exchange.  I think it's time for me to step in and give my own opinion on this discussion. 

 

First, to respond to 'ack' -- While I understand your objections to some of the advice given, I think you are mistaken in your conclusions, and unfortunately the condescending lecture on economic theory didn't help (although it did make me smile).  You are ascribing much more to this situation and to the responses than is warranted, based on some wrong assumptions.  

 

To be more specific about the situation I presented:

 

a)  This involves two sellers, not a seller attempting to sell goods to a buyer.  The other seller contacted me first;

b)  The specific goods proposed to be exchanged are not listed on eBay (I'm in the unusual situation of being my own designer/manufacturer, so I can produce as many duplicates of my copyrighted works as I wish);

c)  The 8 items (4 on each side) are more or less equivalent in value, and arguably have little or no intrinsic value, so we two sellers could assign any value we wish, or no value at all if that facilitates the exchange;

d)  The other seller is in the U.S., I am in Canada;

e)  These are not items, by their nature, that will ever be directly resold by either of us on eBay -- the other seller is barred by copyright from doing anything but using my design for her own personal purposes, and her items are virtually worthless to almost anybody but me.  (I would explain this in detail, but it has to do with the condition, the age and the type of item, and my skills to be able to interpret the information in them).

 

Accordingly I disagree with your conclusion that the posters who suggested a straight trade, with no money changing hands, were advocating something that is against eBay policy.  There is no exchange of value here, except the specific value to the two parties involved.  There is nothing being bought or sold. 

 

I had considered assigning a "fake" value to our items for the purpose of listing them, i.e. so that each of us could buy the items from the other, but why should we be paying fees to eBay for a seller-to-seller exchange of goods that have no inherent value, and that in any case is a zero value sum?  Simply because she contacted me through eBay?  EBay is worried about fee avoidance in seller-to-buyer sales of items with value.  It would not be an exaggeration to say that a $1.00 valuation of each of our group of items is an over-estimate, so fees are irrelevant in this case. 

 

Again, as I originally posted, I am still considering a $1.00 auction on each part, but as some posters pointed out, there is a risk to each of us in terms of DSRs, FB, etc. (or even non-delivery, heaven help me!).  We don't know each other -- although I doubt it, it's possible I'm dealing with a competitor who wants to use such a transaction to downgrade my seller status.  I'm not a paranoid, but it is a consideration. 

 

As for eBay's policies, I disagree with your interpretation.  This policy is intended to prevent sellers from making sales of their (valued) goods to buyers outside of eBay by using eBay contact.  This is clearly not the situation here.  

 

The question remains: how to deal with this matter?  I am still considering having each of us auction our items at a nominal value (say, $1.00), which would not be an unfair representation of true value -- and who is eBay to say what a seller decides is the value of his/her item in any event?  The problem with this procedure (auction) is that we don't know each other, and there is the risk, however small to my seller status, through DSRs, FB or (heaven help me!) an INR case.  Now, there is also the possibility I may be dealing with a competitor whose main purpose is to downgrade my seller status -- not likely, but a consideration.

 

All of the above taken into account, I will probably take Pierre's advice.  In any event, my correspondent was able to figure out how to contact me directly, so that option is open.  I used to be able to show my website (with its contact information) on my "Me" page on eBay, and direct any personal inquiries there, but eBay has now removed even that possibility. 

 

I do disagree with your opinion concerning circumventing eBay policy by contacting buyers directly.  This text (from the eBay policy page) is specific:  "Using member contact information obtained from eBay or using any eBay system to offer to sell any listed item outside of eBay" (my emphasis, as the salient word here is "listed").  This is not the case here, nor (as I said) are we dealing with anything that could have an assigned value. 

 

Strictly speaking, you may have a point about the posters who gave advice on how to make direct contact outside the eBay message system.  However, I think most of us with any experience understand the meaning and purpose of that policy, and how to recognize situations when it doesn't apply. 

 

As 'jt-libra' mentions, there are times I would like to be able to exchange conversations or send more than 5 photos to some of my customers that has nothing to do with selling an item.  Often it's so frustrating and difficult that I've had to give up (for example, type the wrong word and the email gets deleted in its entirety before being sent).  Most of us I would imagine have become very frustrated with the unreasonable restrictions and limitations eBay has imposed in this regard.  Incidentally, on a related subject, there is nothing to prevent a seller from contacting buyers later on, by using the email addresses shown on Paypal, etc.  EBay has no proprietary rights once a transaction is concluded.

 

This is a very unusual set of circumstances, which is why I posted the details on this board.  I want to say I do appreciate all opinions given here, whether I disagree or not.  However, I think I have sufficient experience on eBay and understanding of eBay's policies to be able to draw my own conclusions from the views given. 

Message 29 of 45
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Re: How would you handle this?

The Lithium editor had a hard time with my lengthy post above -- I apologize for the duplications and other errors.  They never provide enough editing time.

Message 30 of 45
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Re: How would you handle this?

... Lolll... Mr E that is a good one... 😉

Message 31 of 45
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Re: How would you handle this?


@rose-dee wrote:

Well, I see my simple query has sparked a rather heated exchange.  I think it's time for me to step in and give my own opinion on this discussion. 

 

First, to respond to 'ack' -- While I understand your objections to some of the advice given, I think you are mistaken in your conclusions, and unfortunately the condescending lecture on economic theory didn't help (although it did make me smile).  You are ascribing much more to this situation and to the responses than is warranted, based on some wrong assumptions.  

 

To be more specific about the situation I presented:

 

a)  This involves two sellers, not a seller attempting to sell goods to a buyer.  The other seller contacted me first;

b)  The specific goods proposed to be exchanged are not listed on eBay (I'm in the unusual situation of being my own designer/manufacturer, so I can produce as many duplicates of my copyrighted works as I wish);

c)  The 8 items (4 on each side) are more or less equivalent in value, and arguably have little or no intrinsic value, so we two sellers could assign any value we wish, or no value at all if that facilitates the exchange;

d)  The other seller is in the U.S., I am in Canada;

e)  These are not items, by their nature, that will ever be directly resold by either of us on eBay -- the other seller is barred by copyright from doing anything but using my design for her own personal purposes, and her items are virtually worthless to almost anybody but me.  (I would explain this in detail, but it has to do with the condition, the age and the type of item, and my skills to be able to interpret the information in them).

 

Accordingly I disagree with your conclusion that the posters who suggested a straight trade, with no money changing hands, were advocating something that is against eBay policy.  There is no exchange of value here, except the specific value to the two parties involved.  There is nothing being bought or sold. 

 

I had considered assigning a "fake" value to our items for the purpose of listing them, i.e. so that each of us could buy the items from the other, but why should we be paying fees to eBay for a seller-to-seller exchange of goods that have no inherent value, and that in any case is a zero value sum?  Simply because she contacted me through eBay?  EBay is worried about fee avoidance in seller-to-buyer sales of items with value.  It would not be an exaggeration to say that a $1.00 valuation of each of our group of items is an over-estimate, so fees are irrelevant in this case. 

 

Again, as I originally posted, I am still considering a $1.00 auction on each part, but as some posters pointed out, there is a risk to each of us in terms of DSRs, FB, etc. (or even non-delivery, heaven help me!).  We don't know each other -- although I doubt it, it's possible I'm dealing with a competitor who wants to use such a transaction to downgrade my seller status.  I'm not a paranoid, but it is a consideration. 

 

As for eBay's policies, I disagree with your interpretation.  This policy is intended to prevent sellers from making sales of their (valued) goods to buyers outside of eBay by using eBay contact.  This is clearly not the situation here.  

 

The question remains: how to deal with this matter?  I am still considering having each of us auction our items at a nominal value (say, $1.00), which would not be an unfair representation of true value -- and who is eBay to say what a seller decides is the value of his/her item in any event?  The problem with this procedure (auction) is that we don't know each other, and there is the risk, however small to my seller status, through DSRs, FB or (heaven help me!) an INR case.  Now, there is also the possibility I may be dealing with a competitor whose main purpose is to downgrade my seller status -- not likely, but a consideration.

 

All of the above taken into account, I will probably take Pierre's advice.  In any event, my correspondent was able to figure out how to contact me directly, so that option is open.  I used to be able to show my website (with its contact information) on my "Me" page on eBay, and direct any personal inquiries there, but eBay has now removed even that possibility. 

 

I do disagree with your opinion concerning circumventing eBay policy by contacting buyers directly.  This text (from the eBay policy page) is specific:  "Using member contact information obtained from eBay or using any eBay system to offer to sell any listed item outside of eBay" (my emphasis, as the salient word here is "listed").  This is not the case here, nor (as I said) are we dealing with anything that could have an assigned value. 

 

Strictly speaking, you may have a point about the posters who gave advice on how to make direct contact outside the eBay message system.  However, I think most of us with any experience understand the meaning and purpose of that policy, and how to recognize situations when it doesn't apply. 

 

As 'jt-libra' mentions, there are times I would like to be able to exchange conversations or send more than 5 photos to some of my customers that has nothing to do with selling an item.  Often it's so frustrating and difficult that I've had to give up (for example, type the wrong word and the email gets deleted in its entirety before being sent).  Most of us I would imagine have become very frustrated with the unreasonable restrictions and limitations eBay has imposed in this regard.  Incidentally, on a related subject, there is nothing to prevent a seller from contacting buyers later on, by using the email addresses shown on Paypal, etc.  EBay has no proprietary rights once a transaction is concluded.

 

This is a very unusual set of circumstances, which is why I posted the details on this board.  I want to say I do appreciate all opinions given here, whether I disagree or not.  However, I think I have sufficient experience on eBay and understanding of eBay's policies to be able to draw my own conclusions from the views given. 


I won't be bothering to answer again. It appears people like to gloss over statements and not really pay attention to what was said.

 

What I said was that posters were showing how to circumvent Ebay's blocks on sharing email addresses. This is against ebay policy and against these forum rules.

 

I also said that while you did not say the items were listed, that another posters specifically advised to delist listed items and sell them outside of ebay. That too is against ebay policy.

 

If you would like to address those 2 and only points I have made rather than attack me, feel free to do so.

 

I went on to say that anyone who follows this advice is going to get themselves in trouble eventually with ebay. Is this not true?

 

I am not going to argue with you about both being sellers. That is clearly impossible. If one is selliing, then one is buying. There is no way around that.

 

Regardless of the level of  value of the item, you both perceive value in the items.

 

You both were introduced via ebay and both wish to transact with each other. If you do want to then you have an obligation to do that transaction within the ebay evironment.

 

The fact that your actions are actively blocked by ebay are proof that that is how ebay perceives it.

 

I apologize if I was condescending but was just trying to explain things in a logical way as it appeared that people were giving advice that was against ebay policies.

 

I see from the responses that people aren't really interested in advice. Maybe I misunderstood this was  a public forum and not a private messaging system.

 

Good luck with your transactions.

 

 

Message 32 of 45
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Re: How would you handle this?

"I apologize if I was condescending but was just trying to explain things in a logical way as it appeared ...."

 

Apologies accepted.

Message 33 of 45
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Re: How would you handle this?


@pierrelebel wrote:

@jt-libra

 

I totally agree with you.


Pierre, you agree with the accusation that the poster may be an "eBay staffer"??? How many times does an eBay staff member post and not identify themselves?? I know it is impossible to tell but in this case but I think this is a wild pointless accusation.

 

jt-libra post that you agreed to:

 

We know that that's their policy; it doesn't mean we can't have an opinion on it.  I think it's absurd, unnecessary and panoramic and serves to make sellers feel that, without these tight reins, we'd all resort to deceptive, fraudulent and dishonest business practices.  It's offensive.

 

I don't know who you are ... I don't recognize your name.  If you're an eBay staffer, then you're not telling us anything we don't know, but one of the reasons sellers come to this board is to sort out situations they're unsure about.

 

If you're simply a seller, your self-righteous approach is not appreciated.

Message 34 of 45
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Re: How would you handle this?

"you agree with the accusation that the poster may be an "eBay staffer"??"

 

Of course not.  That was NOT in the post I responded to.

 

And, for the record, in the post you quote, it was a question, not an accusation as you suggest.

Message 35 of 45
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Re: How would you handle this?

Rather than accusations and sideways comments. How about someone addressing the 2 main points I have made repeatedly. It's easy to call names, be accusatory, but really, it looks like avoiding the questions to me.

 

I stand behind these statements and if anyone cares to make a logical reason why it's OK to offer this advice, I am all ears.

 

 

 

What I said was that posters were showing how to circumvent Ebay's blocks on sharing email addresses. This is against ebay policy and against these forum rules.

 

I also said that while you (rose-dee)  did not say the items were listed, that another posters specifically advised to delist listed items and sell them outside of ebay. That too is against ebay policy.

 

If you would like to address those 2 and only points I have made rather than attack me, feel free to do so.

 

I went on to say that anyone who follows this advice is going to get themselves in trouble eventually with ebay. Is this not true?

 

 

Message 36 of 45
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Re: How would you handle this?

Yesterday:

 

"I won't be bothering to answer again."

Message 37 of 45
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Re: How would you handle this?

Is anyone going to answer the questions?

Message 38 of 45
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Re: How would you handle this?


@pierrelebel wrote:

"you agree with the accusation that the poster may be an "eBay staffer"??"

 

Of course not.  That was NOT in the post I responded to.

 

And, for the record, in the post you quote, it was a question, not an accusation as you suggest.


If you go back to post 26, your post, the "in reply to" forum link is the post 22 your replied to which is the one I quoted. So you replied to that post based on the reply to link. You also said "I totally agree with you." which is everything in that post. Which is why I thought you agreed to that question/accusation.

Message 39 of 45
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Re: How would you handle this?

I see what you mean.  Post #26 was replying to post #18

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