Nothing but dishonest buyers if you don't ship with tracking?

[nascence]

Hello all,

This is my first post here (I think), and may very well be my last. I have been using eBay since roughly 2004-05. I can't remember my original ID, but I made it when I was 14, so I can't remember the login details, let alone the e-mail I used to create the account with. I've since made two accounts since then, this being one of them.

Anyhow, in all my years using eBay, I have bought many things, have had many experiences with sellers on here. I've mostly had good experiences, aside from say 3-5 times where I had to open a claim and receive a refund, or have another item shipped out. I've had to leave negative feedback a total of one time, maybe twice in all my years. Overall I'd say a good kind experience. No greater thrill than opening mail. Like Christmas.

In 2015 I made this account, to start trying to sell on here a bit more since I had a friend who's been a long-time member, show me how to create my listings, etc. and got me into it.

Every sale I've made has been successful and I've had nothing but happy buyers, up until the end of 2016 and all throughout this year.

I usually only ship trading cards, like Pokemon (sleeve, toploader, inside a bubble mailer) and video games. I ship these via ground/economy because I live in Ontario, Canada. Way up North, 12 hours from Toronto. It's very rural. Any time I've inquired about tracking (even within Canada), they tell me it would cost anywhere from $10 - $20. I cannot afford this, and don't know any buyers who want to pay more for shipping than the actual item they are paying for.

The only negative I have is from an extremely sensitive buyer and I learned my lesson from that. Never put "mint" in a title again, if you're aren't a professional grader, even if high-quality pictures are provided. That's all.

I've been laid off from my job, so I've been listing more on eBay, to try and make ends meet. Like to do things like pay my hydro (thanks Ontario). So when I take a loss it's now a huge deal to me and it's so hard to stay ahead on here and not be discouraged.

I simply do not know how to handle dishonest buyers. Lately I have had so many people claim that they have not received their items. I am not a dishonest person. I would never not ship something someone has paid me for, or try to sell something in a misleading way, or what have you. If a day or two has gone by and I still haven't shipped the item, it's all I can think about it and will literally worry me and cause me to lose sleep until I get it posted. I'm that type of a person. I have no life.

I ask for receipts from the post office, which they give me. The few times buyers opened claims, they asked for tracking numbers, even though my listings show I ship economy. I respond by saying it does not include a tracking number because I ship economy (nearly for free imo). I charge $1.99 to Canada and $2.49 to the US. I include a sleeve, toploader and ship in an actual bubble mailer, not a white envelope like so many other sellers. Whenever I ask my friend for advice, he usually tells me that eBay/PayPal always sides with the buyer. I check my receipts, and sometimes they do not show the postal/zip code. I do not understand why. They will always show the postal code for Canada I notice and some from the States though.

All last year I had dishonest buyers from Italy and Greece. I had to stop shipping anywhere other than North America for this reason. I took hundreds of dollars in losses as well as lost cards from my own personal collection. This is when I had my job however, so it wasn't such a huge deal to me, I just bit my tongue and took the losses.

Today I signed on to reply to someone asking if I had shipped their game yet (they paid on the 6th of this month), to see someone else open a claim (no message, straight to claim), saying they never received an item they paid for on the 30th of December. They live in the US and I'm in Canada. They are a new eBayer and bought 2 items after the Dec 30th item. I do not know how to reply to this person. I am so upset because I know where this is all leading to again. Another loss. Three sealed video games I shipped to this person.

Can I be protected by my receipts of proof of shipment? Or do I simply have to quit eBay altogether unless I force buyers to pay for tracking? Should I give up? Any replies at all would be helpful. I just want to quit eBay when these things happen, and it's occurring way too frequently now. It has completely ruined my love for eBay.

[momcqueen]

First of all, please allow me to express my sympathy and empathy for the troubles you currently face. I think many of us are in the same kind of position of you; I don't know anyone who sells on ebay before they don't actually need the money for something.

As to the issue of dishonest buyers, you are selling in what is generally seen as a high-fraud category. 

If you are shipping from a remote location, the Estimated Delivery Dates given by ebay are going to work very strongly against you. Those EDD are fine for me in Winnipeg but if I lived anywhere in a remote or northern part of my province, I would also be getting Items Not Received claims opened on my domestic lettermail and all kinds of Late Shipment Reports because those orders will naturally arrive well past ebay's estimate. Contrary to what our listing pages say, the delivery estimate does NOT take into actual consideration days of delivery between the buyer and seller postal codes, it only confirms the buyer is located within Canada and gives them the one-size-fits-all EDD which only works if the seller and buyer are located within or near major urban centres. This is a major pet peeve of mine and one that I complain about to ebay Canada whenever I have the opportunity to do so. 

As to tracking..... 

I switched to Tracked Packet from Small Packet Airmail for 85 per cent of my items mid-2016. I had only few INR claims in recently years but those that did really rankled and the last one was a clear case of fraud so much so that payal did not require me to refund the buyer although I had not, in fact, shipped with tracking. But I did ship it, they could see. Another time, a buyer in the UK filed an INR but sold it themselves and then mocked me for doing so in the feedback they left. 

Buyers really will pay for tracking. My sales to the USA have not suffered at all. My international sales have dropped somewhat but I sleep better at night. If you go directly to the Canada Post EST postage tool, you will find a better tracked packet discount with a Solutions for Small Business membership than you will with the discount from paypal shipping. That's for overseas only. USA is about the same.

Can you group your items into bundles where tracking makes sense for the buyer to pay, or add 'free shipping' to the item price and make it a nice big bundle? 

Or maybe if you add an extended handling time to your listings, it would give overseas buyers pause when they go to open a claim since they will know they have to wait longer. Maybe some of those INR are due to unrealistic expectations. Also know that the countries where buyers are always charged hefty import fees are the ones most likely to file INR claims eartlier in my experience because they're mad about the import fees or they simply don't get their item and leave it to languish at Customs because they won't pay the tariff.

I trust that other sellers will be here shortly to share their advice.

Hang in there. 

[momcqueen]

Oh and proof of shipment does NOT protect you from an INR. You may also consider third-party insurance like that which is available from places such as u-pic https://u-pic.com which I have used in the past and others such as shipinsure which I have not. 

[sylviebee]

I am of the opinion that when a buyer claims that the item didn’t arrive that most (not all) claims are false, but they’re also not random.

That is, if a buyer receives an item and he/she is thrilled with, then it’s extremely unlikely that the buyer will file a false claim that the item didn’t arrive.

However, when buyers aren’t thrilled with the interaction, they have a few options: suck it up, file a legitimate request to return the item, or falsely claim that the item didn’t arrive when/if there's no tracking.

Most probably suck it up or file an honest claim to return the item.

Both of those options are difficult for buyers and a PITA and so some make false claims.

So, the simple trick to keeping such claims to a minimum is to do as much as you can to ensure that buyers are thrilled with what they receive. That doesn’t mean that every buyer will be thrilled with every item, it just means that you do all you can to steer buyers in that direction, and there really are some simple tricks to accomplish that.

First and foremost, don’t hide damage. Make sure condition is in your face clear.
Make sure you ship on time.
Package well.
Add a little freebie if you’re so inclined. These little freebies have a lot of punch, can cost pennies. and are well worth the effort.

Always be pleasant and never argue with a buyer.  (Some sellers simply cannot pull that off.)

Also, keep in mind that your actual loss is what you paid for the item plus shipping and not the selling price, and also that these claims can be much easier to deal with than returns.

That said: There are a lot of sellers who cut corners. That is: They conceal damage, package haphazardly, ship late and basically offer a no frills service just to get as much stuff out there in as quickly as possible.
That’s another way of selling and I’m pretty sure that those sellers do very well and often better than others who fuss too much.
They also don’t get in a twist over every NFB and complaint. They more or less expect issues with buyers which they deal with quickly and methodically.

And I’m not being critical of that selling technique. IMO it’s a viable way to sell on eBay and suitable to some sellers.
In fact, they may be more profitable than those of us who are at the opposite end of the spectrum.

[momcqueen]

---

@sylviebee wrote:

I am of the opinion that when a buyer claims that the item didn’t arrive that most (not all) claims are false, but they’re also not random. That is, if a buyer receives an item and he/she is thrilled with, then it’s extremely unlikely that the buyer will file a false claim that the item didn’t arrive....

 
Add a little freebie if you’re so inclined. These little freebies have a lot of punch and can cost pennies. and are well worth the effort....

---

I concur. I've always added something token and free to my order if I can squeeze it in without adding weight to the package that warrants a higher postage charge. 

[reallynicestamps]

I'm going to bang my tambourine again for Cookie Jar Insurance.

This is used in lieu of tracking.

Basically you add a tiny amount (usually less than a dime) to your selling or shipping price as a self-insurance premium.

Those virtual pennies go in a virtual Cookie Jar.

When you have a claim that an item was not delivered (or is Not As Described*) you pay the refund out of the Cookie Jar.

Many sellers actually make money on CJI, even more if they include in their calculation the money they don't spend on tracking.

Are all the unhappy buyers dishonest? No.

There may be more dishonesty in some categories (dolls, horse tack, and yes, sportscards) than in others (stamps, books, dress patterns). You have to use your knowledge of your customer base to set the insurance 'premium' you are adding to your prices.

I respond by saying it does not include a tracking number because I ship economy (nearly for free imo).

Hmm. You might try calling your shipping service by its actual name (LetterPost or Light Packet) when you reply to the buyer. Sounds more official.

Also politely add the estimated arrival date and any identifying information. Do you use an unusual package colour? Postage stamps rather than shipping labels**?

And always remind the buyer of the last estimated date for arrival, when it seems appropriate. Politely.

Yes, we are using smoke and mirrors here. But again, most unhappy buyers are honest, just impatient.

They live in the US ... and bought 2 items after the Dec 30th item.... Another loss. Three sealed video games I shipped to this person.

Those went parcel post, I would guess. Because the package would be more than 2 cm thick.

And all parcel services are at least bar coded.

Find your receipt and send the number of the bar code.

Don't claim it is a tracking number, although it might be.***

Again, this could be just smoke and mirrors, but it may also discourage a scammer who is unlikely to know the Canada Post system.

And about the buyer who gave a neg and a neutral. You can add a Response to any feedback, your own or the customer's, indefinitely.

Think about this carefully however. A Response draws a lot of attention to the FB. And the Response should be calm and factual. "Did not contact I accept returns for full refund." for example.

And, do have a Returns policy that allows returns, because No Returns does NOT mean no refunds. A policy of no returns can mean a buyer will go to the Dispute rather than working with the seller, and that's never good.

*Note that sellers can, and should, demand the return of items that are claimed to be Not As Described.

** If you are using postage stamps, you can buy mint stamps at substantial discounts from eBay sellers. (Drops hint on her foot, swears.)

*** Small Packet Air is not, but Tracked Packet is. The price however is a third higher.

Politely.-- Captain Malcolm Reynolds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZ3k2xA1Wcw

[maximus7001]

Dude, you are going to keep loosing those games to scammers if you keep sending them lettermail. PS vita games are in a category of really high theft. The buyers themselves are usually questionable to begin with. Most are messed up 40 year old virgins living in their mothers basements with no income so of course the games "never arrived". They know you are a noob by the look of your listings and therefore you are already a target.

We sell games from various consoles and handhelds and have never been ripped off in 12 years because we sell and ship smartly. A $35 US game is not going lettermail but a $8 US game is going lettermail, get it?

Buy your shipping from paypal through ebay.

Example: We sold a vita game for $35 US to a noob buyer in alabama and charged $7 US shipping. We shipped it for $8.61 CDN with a paypal small packet USA label. We had the scan in receipt stamped with the day stamp at the post office. Then went to www.insurepost.com and insured the item costing $1.60 US per $100 US in value.

This only works with small packet USA or small packet international AIR as there is a bar code and it gets scanned in at the post office. Do not leave the post office without a day stamped scan in receipt as it is required by insurepost. Never send anything by surface.

If you sell 3 of these semi expensive items to the same buyer then just send it all in one package by  canada post tracked packet usa for about $15 CDN.

How hard is that?

[Anonymous]

It is one of many reasons when I switched from cheaper mail services without tracking numbers to mail services with tracking numbers nearly 3 years now.  I get way too many "I didn't receive my items" &/or "where is my item?", every time I get those, I am being penalized by eBay each time, it is just not worth a hassle, losing items and $$.

Since switching to mail services with tracking numbers, I may lose many potential buyers but to my surprise I got many International buyers willing to pay the hefty postage rates for Tracked Packet and XpressPost.  The only buyers that whine about having to pay for Tracket Packet is US buyers.

[momcqueen]

I haven't had the same problem with USA buyers with complaints about the cost of Tracked Packet. As a matter of fact (albeit possibly coincidence) after I switched to Tracked from Small Packers, sales increased to USA. I do, however, subsidize the cost of postage by a dollar or two.

[tobyshitzu]

"

We sold a vita game for $35 US to a noob buyer in alabama and charged $7 US shipping. We shipped it for $8.61 CDN with a paypal small packet USA label. We had the scan in receipt stamped with the day stamp at the post office. Then went to www.insurepost.com and insured the item costing $1.60 US per $100 US in value.

 "

Even with the huge increase in light packet closing the gap, I would send that for $6.84/no insurance and no going to the post office (my cost less using old stamps).  You are paying almost $4 extra for "protection", you'd have to lose 1 in 9 $35 games to break even (though the insurer would refuse to insure if you claimed anywhere clsoe to  that often).  No one is going to lose 1 in 9, or even close.  And I send $100 games the same way being one will always come out way ahead over time doing so.    

[maximus7001]

$35 US = $47.60 CDN on that example sale that day. That's alot to just give away to a crook. We are not talking about stamps and doilies here. The categories being talked about here is probably the highest risk items you can sell. Really?, obscure anime video games and pokemon cards. We sell these type of items as well with a difference. We don't give them away.

We have a colleague who sells the identical stuff we do to the same countries although without any tracking except when thicker than 2cm to Canada which makes it a parcel. He constantly whines about loses of like  5 items a month of semi high value items like we are discussing but somehow thinks he is saving money.

We have $70 CDN of uninsured loss for 1 item in 12 years that we could not prove to ebay or paypal. The scammer turned around and promptly resold it on ebay while the claim was live. We were too trusting and fell for that one and ebay was totally wrong on that one..

Lets see here... Categories with up to a 50% loss if sent lettermail. 5 x $47.6 = $238 losses per month plus loss of initial postage $6.84 x 5 = $34.20 for a total of $272.20 potential losses VS sending all 10 items insured.

10.75 small packet usa with 3rd party insurance minus 6.84 light packet = 3.91 more per item for zero loss $39.10/month for zero loss.

What about the negs that a scammer sometimes does to try to hide the scam.

Reminds me of the guy who payed $300 over 2 years to insure a $60 phone and after getting an iphone 7 recently he tried being a cheapo and did not pay the insurance anymore. Two days later a smashed phone with no recourse. No logic either way.

[tobyshitzu]

" We are not talking about stamps and doilies here. The categories being talked about here is probably the highest risk items you can sell. Really?, obscure anime video games"

I sell games on 4 ebay ids for many years, all mailed as cheap as possible. Loss rate is very very low. It HAS to be a losing proposition to buy insurance , or no one would offer the insurance

There is no "50% loss rate", every game seller in Canada doing any volume on ebay does the same. As do the UK sellers who have discovered they can undercut the market with the low pound by listing on .ca

[reallynicestamps]

We are not talking about stamps and doilies here.

I don't offer a lot of high value stamps under this ID, only about 25% are valued over $100US, but it is not unusual to see stamps with asking and selling prices over $10,000 (and even more collections asking that much).

This is the currently highest priced single stamp on eBay

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/1859-Switzerland-10C-Color-Error-Yellow-like-the-20c-Sc-21-Mi-14-/40112712606...

I probably wouldn't encourage anyone to buy it.

This is a better deal.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/121b-30-1869-INVERTED-FLAGS-ONLY-40-KNOWN-XF-WITH-PFC-EXT-RARE-WLM397-KEY-/14...

Oddly the American seller is willing to ship this $150 000 stamp for $7.00.

Now that's confidence in the buyer!

[ricarmic]

The first item is on sale now, 40% off so it's only 100K......

[momcqueen]

Now THAT is a steal of a deal.

[jude1871]

Hello

I'm a buyer, never a seller. And let me tell you, I've made over 500 purchases throughout the years and have learned the hard way that dishonesty can work both ways. I've had to open up at least 10 claims in order to get a refund.

It's been my experience that when sellers don't provide a tracking number, it always seems to be those items that tend to go "missing" in the mail. No tracking number means no way of determining whether or not the item was ever sent out. If it's my fault for not reading the description well enough and I get something I didn't expect, then that's down to me and I eat the cost. Recently I purchased a book from Indiana - I live in Winnipeg - and the description clearly states that tracking information will be provided...seller claimed item was shipped, no tracking info was provided. I waited the entire stated shipment period, and surprise, surprise item did not arrive and seller claims item was sent out, and that I didn't pay for tracking (shipment cost 22.00 American), and that I should go searching for the item at the local post office...I love how some of these sellers pass on the responsibility of searching for the item onto the buyer. Opened up a claim and eBay immediately issued a refund. If I have to open up a claim in order to get a refund, the seller immediately gets negative feedback. If the seller issues the refund, then I leave neutral feedback. Now, if it clearly states economy shipping, then I take the risk.

It's been my experience that when Sellers are communicative then the experience tends to be good. Once they start avoiding my messages, then I know I've been taken.

For the most part, I've been very satisfied with the purchases I've made. I'd say 95 percent of sellers I've dealt with are honest and accommodating and I gladly would go back the them.

[ypdc_dennis]

ZOMBIE thread from 2017

[ilikehockeyjerseys]

It is very common for there to be no tracking number with Canadian sellers. It doesn't mean they are trying to rip you off. There is no economical service in Canada that offers tracking. Sellers of sports cards, video games, dvds, cds, etc, mostly all use lettermail. In typical times, lettermail is roughly as fast as regular parcel, and an item can be shipped for 2-4 dollars, not 15.

If sellers only sold with tracking in Canada, it would be bad for you as a buyer. You could then pretty much kiss goodbye any chance of anybody listing anything below a certain value on eBay, because it wouldn't be worth their time since the 15 dollar shipping cost would eat into so much of the margin.

I have given refunds to buyers without them having to open up cases, but why would you neg a buyer for asking you to open up a case? That seems harsh. That is how eBay works. Sellers have very little protection, especially if they are in a category where they ship untracked. One of the only forms of protection available is to ask a buyer to open up a claim, because buyers who intentionally scam as INR will be hesitant to open up claims with a high percentage of different sellers since eBay tracks that.

It's a two way street. Both buyers and sellers need to be understanding of the challenges both sides face. Tracking with every order would kill eBay in Canada, and you'd have significantly less options to buy from. I've sold 100's of untracked items, and in normal times, less than 1 percent don't arrive. I've bought 100's of untracked items, and I've only ever had one not arrive.

[jude1871]

Hello

I appreciate you responding.  Having never sold anything, I've very naive about the cost of tracking and how it can be prohibitive for inexpensive items.  You asked me why I would leave a seller negative feedback for requesting I open a claim.  Never, ever, has a seller ever asked me to open up a claim.  Should a seller be adamant about me opening up a claim that would lead me to believe that the item was indeed sent out and may have gotten lost is just late.  The only time I've ever opened up a claim is when the seller has refused to communicate with me, has completely cut me off, or has been abusive, uncooperative, or rude.  Then I won't hesitate to leave negative feedback.  I'm well aware of the fact that negative feedback can severely hurt sellers, and it isn't something I do lightly.  And I do recognize that for some, eBay represents much needed income. In fact, if a seller were to issue a refund, I leave no feedback.  I'm not heartless.  As I said before, I usually give sellers an additional two weeks after shipment deadline.  There have been times when an inexpensive item has never arrived and I've just eaten the cost because I just can't be bothered with opening up a claim.

As I said, having never sold anything, I can only imagine how many buyers out there "claim" the item never arrived because they know they can get away with it.

It can be frustrating on both ends.

Regards, 

Jude1871

[kh-leslie]

Hello Everyone,

Due to the age of the thread, it has been closed to further replies.  Please feel free to start a new thread if you wish to continue to discuss this topic.

Thanks for understanding!