Return Shipping - Buyer jumped the gun!

[velvetfinch]

I sold a Christmas decoration.  Buyer received the decoration and was upset that the prop in the background used to hang said item on was not included (now this was very obvious both from the second picture of the item alone and the description).  Anyway the buyer filed on ebay to return it as it was 'not as described'.

I agreed to the return after politely explaining that the listing was very clear as to what the item was.  I also offered the option of a partial refund if buyer wanted to keep item.  Buyer declined and wanted to return. Buyer asked me to send a shipping label and I said that was not possible as I am in Canada and they are in the US.  Buyer says she'll figure things out and let me know.  Later today she sends me a scan of a USPS shipping receipt for $20.

To sum it up.  The item cost $10, her original shipping cost was $7 (total $17).  She ended up paying  $20 JUST for return mailing and sent me the receipt, obviously expecting me to pay for this!  There was no discussion at all of what, if anything, I was willing to pay for return shipping she just went ahead and paid an exhorbitant price to ship it back. Please let me know how you would proceed on this.

[sylviebee]

Sounds like you're really in a pickle.

I'm sorry to say this, but this is a very good example of how "not" to handle a return.  The only worse outcome might have been to allow the case to be escalated and have eBay issue a return label via courier.

Pointing out that you are in the right because the item was exactly as described (which implies that the buyer is wrong) can only escalate the situation.

The buyer knew what she was doing.  (Did you really want and item back to re-sell that was trouble the first time around?)

I think you're stuck.

Pay the $20 and refund when the item arrives.

[sylviebee]

I don't usually offer personal antidotes, but I feel very strongly that challenging buyers regardless of the facts is a very bad idea.

Recently, a buyer claimed that an item I sold her wasn't as described.  

The listing focused in on the damage in several photos and the issue was also described very clearly.  it was impossible to miss.

I apologized to the buyer (apparently a typical Canadian trait) and avoided further discussion of the issue.

A generous partial refund was offered but she declined.  It was a $70 US item but I did consider just refunding and telling her to keep it.  I sold it for $70 but I certainly didn't pay $70 for the item.

I also told her I'd be happy to pay return shipping but at the same time appealed to her keep shipping cost low.

The buyer told me that I didn't have to pay return shipping but I insisted.  She was able to ship for $6 by shipping through her husband's company.

I refunded upon return and she went on to buy one of my most expensive pieces and was thrilled.

I didn't block her as some advise and do.

I did, however, get a defect.

I'm sure she'll be back for more.

I re-listed the item focusing even more on the damage than the first time around and sold it again and received PFB.

When you don't challenge buyers things often have a very Positive outcome.

[pjcdn2005]

Sometimes what is obvious to you may not be obvious to your buyer so it is can be a bit risky to use any sort of props in your pictures.

I don't think that you have many options at this point other than paying for the return shipping label that the buyer purchased. I did have one snad return where I had to pay the label and in that situation I explained to the U.S. buyer that I would pay for a first class international shipping label and that they would have to purchase it online in order to receive delivery confirmation. That way I could minimize the return cost. 

Often when an item is not expensive, it is easier and less expensive just to let the buyer keep the item although I know that sometimes it is more the 'principle' than the money.

[pacificwinds6875]

Rule of thumb (or another choice digit on my hand) - haha! NEVER NEVER NEVER challenge a buyer!

 You really do come across them (thankfully) very seldom.

"Not as Described" is always a favorite.  Have you ever tried to PROVE that? It is impossible. Get them to return it, refund, block them and move on.  So hard at times to do when YOU know you are right.  All the time fighting it, effort and anxiety are just not worth it. 

[reallynicestamps]

She could have purchased a First Class International Parcel for $7.43 online.

I just did it (Using 90210 to my BC postal code) and a 4 oz weight,

BUT

There were two or three click throughs needed, and if I had not known that FCIP existed I would have concluded the cost of return shipping was in the $20 range too.

She isn't being evil, just not in possession of all the information she needed.

And you already know she is not good at processing written and pictured infomation, eh?

It's a business expense. Pay the $20 and try to be gracious.

Relist and resell.

Well, maybe I'm not a fancy gentleman like you, with your... very fine hat. But I do business. We're here for business.-- Captain Malcolm Reynolds

[sylviebee]

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@pacificwinds6875 wrote:

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I couldn't help but notice and just want to say:  What a really interesting business you have!

Nice to see something unique. 

[pacificwinds6875]

Wow! Thanks ever so much - it really means a lot. Have a wonderful holiday and all the best to you for the new year, y'all!

[jersey..authentix]

This can be a huge problem for sellers that have sold items to the US.Buyers do not have to worry about return shipping costs. I would prefer to have control of the cost of return shipping , but haven't found a way to send return shipping label. 

I have to agree with the majority here. Just pay the amount . Next return you will have better tools to deal with the buyer.

Shipping prices are all over the place in the US . I have been quoted some crazy prices myself. In cases like this I go to USPS.com and find the rate myself and paste it to Email back to the buyer. I have had great success with this.

[velvetfinch]

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

As a point of curiosity. Can ebay "force" me to refund the return shipping?

[sylviebee]

Probably.  

However, in some cases they will fund return shipping themselves.  

One way or another they will make sure that the buyer does not pay return shipping.

[sylviebee]

It sounds like the buyer bought the label on line.

If it's not too late the buyer "may" be able to cancel the label and that would allow you to refund without requiring a return.

If you and the buyer are communicating in a friendly manner that may an option.

[velvetfinch]

Nope, the buyer went right to a USPS postal outlet and shipped it back immediately without informing me.  The buyer sent me a photo of the customs form and the shipping receipt (well actually not even the shipping receipt, but the visa receipt from some store - so it doesn't even itemize what was purchased)

Why in the world would a buyer pay MORE to return ship an item, than the entire cost of the original item including original shipping.  Shaking my head at this one, and quite frankly I'm not planning to refund them for their error.

[sylviebee]

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@velvetfinch wrote:

Why in the world would a buyer pay MORE to return ship an item, than the entire cost of the original item including original shipping.  Shaking my head at this one, and quite frankly I'm not planning to refund them for their error.

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Why would the buyer pay MORE for return shipping that item cost?

Put yourself in the buyer's position.

The key is in your statement:  I did x after """"explaining that the listing was very clear as to what the item was.""""

When you did that you made the buyer your adversary.    You are saying that you are in the right and that means that you are also saying that your buyer is wrong.  

I know I would find that abrasive.

That kind of thing starts a whole unpleasant chain of events.  Had you left that statement out the outcome may have been very different (or not).

eBay will likely go into your account and refund the buyer for shipping costs.

However, recently there has been some reluctance on the part of eBay to do that, so they might refund themselves.

However, do you really want to add NFB to the list of issues for this interaction?

[velvetfinch]

I don't believe that ebay can legally take money from my account from a transaction outside ebay ?

What this would mean is that because a buyer had animosity because I politely defended my listing is that they could decide to mail an item back by Fedex Next day service and I would be on the hook for that?  It doesn't make sense.  

All personal feelings aside, wondering what ebay is actually legally able to do in situations like this.  I was unable to provide a return shipping label as I am in Canada and the buyer is in the US.  That shouldn't mean that the buyer can unilaterally purchase whatever service they feel like (because they are angry) to return an item.  How could ebay possibly go about enforcing this?  My understanding anyway, is that when a seller is able to provide a return shipping label, the cost of said label never exceeds the original cost of shipping.  That is an ebay policy. 

Anyway, thanks for your insights on the situation!

[velvetfinch]

Oh, and of course if I had known that this whole crazy situation would ensue - if the buyer had insisted that they return a $10 item using a $20 shipping method, I would have just refunded and told them to keep it and washed my hands of the situation.  Unfortunately they buyer did not bother to inform me of the ridiculous $20 shipping they decided to pay for to send it back.  Sorry, not getting upset with anyone here at all, the whole principle (and stupidity) of the situation just annoys me.

[pjcdn2005]

My understanding anyway, is that when a seller is able to provide a return shipping label, the cost of said label never exceeds the original cost of shipping.  That is an ebay policy. 

I believe that is a policy when you are in the hassle free returns program and even if you were registered in that program, it wouldn't apply here as both parties have to be in the U.S.  Perhaps I've just forgotten but other than that, I don't remember ever seeing anything about the return label not being able to cost more. That would be impossible in many cases when the sale is international.

In your OP "Buyer declined and wanted to return. Buyer asked me to send a shipping label and I said that was not possible as I am in Canada and they are in the US.  Buyer says she'll figure things out and let me know.  Later today she sends me a scan of a USPS shipping receipt for $20."

That would've been your opportunity to let her know which shipping options you would or would not pay for. Unless the buyer sells internationally, she would have no way of knowing that the only way to send first class and have delivery confirmation is to purchase the label online. If she went to the post office they would have told her that the least expensive way to send an item with del conf to Canada is to send it with Priority so that is probably what she purchased. In her mind that may have been the only option. Sure she could have walked away, contacted you again and waited to see what you said but unless you told her ahead of time, she didn't know that you wouldn't pay that amount and that you would have told her to keep the item so she went ahead and bought the only option that she knew about.

Based on the information you have given, I don't think that she bought the label to be malicious. I think that she was only doing what she thought had to do. She was thinking like a buyer...not from your point of view. So I don't think it is fair that she may be on the hook for the postage because it doesn't sound as if she was given instructions on how to handle the situation. Asking you if you would be willing to pay $20 before she purchased the label may be common sense but there's no rule in ebay that says buyers or sellers must have common sense.

[sylviebee]

Yes.  I don't believe that the buyer was necessarily being malicious either.

However, common sense tells you that when return shipping exceeds the value of the item that it's not in the seller's best interest.

The buyer showed no consideration for the seller and "perhaps" that was the result of previous communication.  No one knows why, be clearly there was a breakdown in the communication process.

Maybe not malicious, but not considerate either.  

[sylviebee]

I don't want to do this topic to death, but rethinking it brings up another issue:  

You must have had a pretty good idea of actual USPS shipping costs when the buyer first contacted you,.  No?

It was a $10 item and the buyer does have a valid complaint.   I looked at your photo and to me it looks like the ornament comes with a stand.

There really was no reasonable solution after the buyer turned down the offer of a partial refund other than to refund in full without requiring a return.

PJs explanation makes sense too. 

It could have been shipped for less than $20, but it couldn't have been shipped for less than item cost regardless of the shipping method used.

[velvetfinch]

Yes! I honestly thought USPS return shipping would be about $5!

I very very seldom have returns, but the last time I did (maybe a year ago) it cost about $5 for an item even heavier than this to be returned.

Opinions aside, I do not believe it is possible for ebay to remove money from a sellers account that was never part of a transaction in the first place (return shipping)