Do you block a buyer claiming INR?

[rocketscollectibles]

I ship lettermail and had my first INR claim recently

Scam or not, who knows. Though i did not received my item back for undeliverable adress or whatever

Just wonder your thoughts on this cause i know some sellers says to just instantly block after refund. But don't we should give the benefit of doubts? How you deal with it do you instantly block buyers claiming INR or you let them free to buy again? Or going case by case?

[edubb101]

Hello,

Ive only had a handful of these and I have not blocked anyone.  Usually my customer is pro active and messages me.  Once this is done I advise of the ETA and the steps to take should the item not be recieved within the ETA period.

The ones that are a bit of a red flag for me are if I do not here anything from the customer and then as soon as the first opportunity to open a case happens they do this without any communication.  The other red flag is if they are looking for a refund right away and its only been a short period of time since their item was shipped.  

All the best.

[ricarmic]

A note that generally I send untracked items, about 75% of my stuff is untracked. I do not remember the last time a tracked item was lost, it is probably more than 5 years ago now.

While we tend here to blame the buyer, lost items could also be the "process" ie someone in the delivery system stealing/losing/confiscating the items.

On these boards a few years ago, a couple sellers with high loss rates realized they were both putting their packages into the same mailing box. Ultimately an investigation was initiated and it was determined a postal employee was stealing items.

In the olden days I did not block buyers in INR situations, but I had situations were multiple attempts to send untracked items were all lost, unless they were sent tracked - most memorable, 3 lost untracked items to a location near Toronto (so a couple hours drive from me), ZERO lost items when sent tracked. I talked on the phone with that buyer, we agreed to share the cost of tracking. After a couple years, sending regularly without tracking worked ok, so that was likely also someone in the delivery process grabbing the packages.

Because of the higher likelihood IMO of delivery problems, especially for overseas buyers, for as long as I can remember now, as soon as an INR is opened, I block the buyer, with the exception that if the parcel was sent to a a repeat/regular buyer I do not.

If the package does eventually arrive and the buyer contacts me and repays, I unblock them.

Blocking is really a matter of managing risk, it is unfortunate in situations where it is the delivery process failing that the customer suffers by being stopped from future purchases.

[msau4301]

The first couple of times it happened I did not block them, I figured it could have been a post office fluke.

After that I did start blocking them as I figured even if the buyers weren't trying to pull a fast one, could be someone at their local post office, or neighbourhood which would still make it a higher risk.

I even had a case where the package was returned to me (unopened) with giant RETURN TO SENDER (in marker, not the post office sticker) so I figured the buyer changed their mind, or over spent that month so opened a case to get their money back. I block these types since I stress easily! (I envy those calm types.)

I do of course make an exception if it is a repeat/regular buyer, or if they communicate asking if it's normal to be a little late, etc. But if it's a one-off, silent buyer I block them.

[rocketscollectibles]

My personal experience was weird. Buyer did not communicated until filling the INR, and waited around 2 weeks after estimated delivery to do it. Then wrote a very long text in the description case, not hostile at all, but a lot of talk. First impression to me it looked like someone claiming a false INR but feeling bad about doing it. Just my feeling. He even came back a few days after refund to update me about he still did not received and would leave a positive feedback, then left a fake positive, feedback acting like he received the item normally in the estimated delivery time

Bit weird and confusing to me. Cause someone not receiving an item would not look like he's feeling bad about claiming a refund, in my opinion. And would not lie in a positive feedback

That's why i'm not sure if i should automatically block buyers claiming INR, we really can't know if it's a legit claim or a scam at the end. Most of time we just can do assumptions. At the same time i feel bad about blocking a buyer that may really not received the item. But we just can't know 

[ricarmic]

IMO the important thing isn't the cause, it is the likelihood of it happening again.

If you tried sending another replacement and/or they ordered again, would it arrive?

Doesn't matter if it is the buyer or the "process" you will lose if either is the problem.

Managing risk causes frustrations for many, a number of the annoying and costly processes eBay has in place from a selling perspective are also risk management related as a result of various abuses over the years.

[marnotom!]

If a seller sends an item untracked with the knowledge that an incontestable INR claim is a possibility, it seems pretty churlish to me to block the buyer if this is their first and only claim with that seller unless there are hints or clues that the buyer pulls this stunt a lot with other sellers.

Was this buyer from Canada or elsewhere? Lettermail is moving slower than usual right now due to the holiday rush, weather, highway wipeouts, COVID. . .you name it. Actually, is there a usual anymore? My wife purchased stuff from the US in June that went as letters and they took a month to reach her.

I’m thinking that your buyer’s claim is probably legit but their purchase will reach them next week.

[msau4301]

I know you said "Cause someone not receiving an item would not look like he's feeling bad about claiming a refund, in my opinion."  but that is not necessarily true. I know for myself, if I had to claim for an item not received I would be apologetic and feel bad that's just my nature (as a seller I know this sucks!). But I would also wait a good couple of weeks after the latest estimated date to reach out to buyer first, then depending on their response see how much longer I was willing to wait. I once reached out to someone on a late package and got a message gushing with apologies because she thought she had mailed it but it was still in her office!! I got it a couple of weeks later. It's those people that don't reach out and aren't willing to wait "just a little longer" and open a case that I choose to block.

[ricarmic]

I had to look up churlish! I've been called worse before, "soulless" is probably the worst one (so far!).

I do try to be customer oriented, but the problem is when the item does not get there, I do not know why. My experience is that sending a 2nd item has too high a likelihood of not arriving either, that's what created my blocking policy. This is especially true for foreign countries, which is normally when this situation happens for me. I actually think it is more likely the "process" is causing the problem for overseas locations and that would repeat for additional shipments.

The current ebay processes don't really support "resending", at least as far as I can see for the cases I've had, they are really set up for a cash refund, which seems to support the "refund and move on type mentality". I could be wrong about that though, I am fortunate that I have "few" INRs relatively speaking in a year.

[femmefan1946]

There are several reasons for INR claims

• The address was undeliverable.
• The purchase was stolen by porch pirates
• The item was delivered to the wrong address.

I'd Block that buyer, since through no fault of his own, he cannot provide a secure place for delivery.

• The buyer is lying.

I'd Block that buyer if his FB makes any indication that he does this normally, or if the loss was higher than I can stomach.

• The purchase disappeared in the mail.

This doesn't happen often, but slow delivery is an ongoing problem.

I'd consider Blocking the buyer for being impatient when so much publicity has been given to supply chain problems.

Hmm- I don't seem to have a reason on that list NOT to Block.  I did not realize I was so pessimistic.

[regs43]

I block anyone that files INR and I have to refund with no communication on their end, not worth the hassel of dealing with them again, some sales are not worth having. From my experiences people who genuinley havent gotten the item usually send a ebay message checking about their package.

People who I believe are lying as mentioned by others above

People opening INR like 2 months after item was bought
People opening INR the first moemnt they can

I always ask people to verify their address in the INR claim, and if they never respond in 2-3 days before they can ask ebay to step in, I generally believe thoese are the scammer type, they just know they will get their money back as there is no tracking. The ones who I believe are less scammer type will provide their address (and sometimes its not where the item was sent and we can sort their problem out, as buyers do forget which address they used).

I generally don't ge too many INR claims in a year but when I do its the sketchy type mentioned above. Most people are honest.

[ilikehockeyjerseys]

In that situation, I would block them. 

The fake feedback is a bit fishy. You have to keep in mind that leaving a feedback saying the item never arrived is a huge red flag if there is a high percentage of these feedbacks left. So by leaving you a feedback that makes it look like things went well, they are masking their activity to other sellers who might scout their feedback after they open an INR. 

I am all for treating customers with respect. I also understand that most INRs are a consequence of lettermail arriving late, not someone scamming you. With that said, when you're sending untracked, if anything is fishy, you're better safe than sorry. 

I think it is a fair policy to block buyers with outstanding INRs. INRs are incredibly rare, and most buyers eventually receive the package and if instructed at the time of the refund, will message you to pay you back. Once that happens, you can remove them from your blocked list. Once a buyer opens an INR, while they probably aren't a scammer, the odds of them being a scammer or otherwise having issues with their mail delivery (a bad mail carrier) are much higher than with any other buyer. At that point it becomes a risk management issue. If you are in a category where there isn't a lot of repeat business, there is even more reason to block someone after they open an INR. There is not much downside to blocking at that point. It ensures that if they are a scammer, they have to at least jump through some hoops to buy from you again. Obviously, if it is a repeat customer who you have never had an issue with, you'd be foolish to block them. 

Even reading your posts in this thread, I would block them for your own sanity. It sounds like if they bought from you again, you'd be pretty stressed out about it. 

[rocketscollectibles]

The fake feedback is a bit fishy. You have to keep in mind that leaving a feedback saying the item never arrived is a huge red flag if there is a high percentage of these feedbacks left. So by leaving you a feedback that makes it look like things went well, they are masking their activity to other sellers who might scout their feedback after they open an INR

This makes a lot of sense. I will always try to give the benefit of doubts cause we don't know our buyers personalities or anything, but my case the buyer felt like too friendly. Many things he wrote in the inr filling and his message after i refund sounded like he was trying too much to look like it's not a scam. And what you wrote there really go in that sense 

Funny thing don't eBay should give me back my payment cause buyer confirmed receiving the item in his feedback...

Anyway i think i'll go with a policy blocking buyers directly. It's better than wasting time overthinking on guesses and assumptions. Except a few obvious cases if the item is returned, if it's a repeat customer, etc

Do you guys test your luck to ask the buyers to resend payment if ever he receive the item?

[ilikehockeyjerseys]

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@rocketscollectibles wrote:

Do you guys test your luck to ask the buyers to resend payment if ever he receive the item?

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I wouldn't call it testing your luck. Look at it this way, would you want to keep something for free if you were the buyer?

Respond to the INR with the aim of helping them. Be polite, respectful. Refund by the deadline. Let them know they can refuse the package if it arrives, or if they still want to keep it, to please message you to arrange to pay for the item. 

A lot of INRs end up arriving before the case deadline, or the buyer messages to pay back. 

INRs happen so rarely. Especially for newer sellers, it is an aspect that they put way too much thought into. Once you figure out to set up your listings properly with economy shipping, and not lettermail, to give a more realistic shipping window, you stop getting INRs because most are caused by lettermail taking longer than the unrealistic window eBay gives. 

[ricarmic]

Yes of course it makes sense to ask the buyer to pay again if the item arrives later!

Here are a couple sample wordings I use. These I send as messages, the space in the cases is much smaller so I put a shorter version in there and a note that I'm sending a more complete message separately. (Note that I find it very useful to have pre-written responses to messages/situations, that way when they are needed they are pretty well ready and they were written when I wasn't frustrated with the situation)

Version when a case has been opened:

Hi BUYERNAME! I’m sorry to hear that the stamps have not yet arrived. 

I definitely share your frustration with the postal delays! Unfortunately the COVID-19 pandemic is still affecting a lot of shipments with no rhyme nor reason as to which ones are affected. I have had a number of shipments to your area taking longer than normal in the last few weeks, I am not certain why. The good news is that ever since COVID began, my package loss rate has remained below 1/2 of 1% so over 99.5% of the time the packages do eventually arrive.

Now that cases have been opened the only options eBay gives me are to send a message or refund and irregardless of messages, I have to refund by Thursday June 17th. If it is ok by you, I will wait to refund until Thursday June 17. If they arrive before then, you can just close the case. If they don't arrive by the 17th, I will refund out of my own funds. There is a very good chance it will arrive after that, and if it does please let me know and I’ll send another invoice so you can pay again (this is my full time job, small parcels like this are not insured so I am out 100% if they do not arrive).

Thank you very much for your patience during all of this, let me know if you are ok with this plan, and I hope you have a great day!!! RICARMIC (Ron)

When a case has not been opened yet:

Hi BUYERNAMEl! I am sorry to hear that the stamps have not yet arrived, I hope you received my note advising that they were mailed on Wed March 3rd.

I definitely share your frustration with the postal delays! Unfortunately the COVID-19 pandemic is still affecting a lot of shipments, especially those going overseas. Unfortunately it is not uncommon anymore for shipments from here in Canada to folks in COUNTRYNAME to take up to 10 to 12 weeks to arrive. The weird part is that some shipments go fast and some go very very slow, with no rhyme nor reason as to which are affected! The good news is that ever since COVID began, my package loss rate has remained below 1/2 of 1% so over 99.5% of the time the packages do eventually arrive.

I would really appreciate it if you don’t mind waiting another couple weeks or so before we decide the package is lost and I refund your money, but I will be ok whenever you decide. If it gets to the point that you think it has been long enough, please just open an item not received case and I will refund your money out of my own funds. Assuming the parcel does arrive after that, let me know and I’ll send another invoice so you can pay again (this is my full time job, small parcels like this are not insured so I am out 100% if they do not arrive).

Thank you very much for your patience during all of this, and I hope you have a great day!!! RICARMIC (Ron)

[msau4301]

What a great idea to have these pre-written messages to send! I love it!

Just one question, in the event you do need to send an invoice where do you send it from?

I know I did this in the past through Paypal but now that they are not connected to the sale where do you send it from? I don't think you can send an invoice through eBay once the buyer has paid (the first time!)

Thanks for the wise words (I may use an adapted version should the need arise!) and happy holidays!

[ricarmic]

@msau4301  

Please feel free to use any wordings I share here, I share the wordings incase they are of any use to anyone else!

If the buyer contacts me after refunding one can:

-ask for their email address aka PAYPAL  id

-create a special just for them ebay lot to purchase and pay for

My plan is to go the special lot just for them, I do this all the time for special orders, but so far I haven't had a "repayer" since I moved to managed payments in late summer. That path is simple, I create the lot, they purchase, pay for it and I mark it as shipped right away and everyone is happy.

(Regarding the pre-written notes, I have a "draft" email that I put the various versions in so I can just cut and paste them into eBay for modification whenever I need them)

[msau4301]

Brilliant! I like the special lot idea....should the need arise in the future.

I once tried to get an email address to send a Paypal invoice when this happened after managed payments but the buyer wasn't comfortable to do it that way and said since they had my (house) address on package sent they actually mailed me the cash (US dollars) by mail...and it arrived safely. (Proving there are still good people out there.)

I like your way better though!

[brettjet38]

I handle each one based on the communications I get from the Buyer I also go over the FB the Buyer has received and the FB they leave for others...

...you can learn a lot about Buyers from their use of FB or lack off. If I see lots of transactions "Cancelled" or lots of red/grey rings left for their Sellers it's usually the Block List, ASAP.

Although, I do not think in all the years I have been on eBay that I have ever had more than 50-60 members on there at a single time.

I think you can actually block up to 5000 member ID's on your list.

[ilikehockeyjerseys]

It has been confirmed here that it isn't against eBay TOS to ask for contact information if a buyer has already bought and paid for an item from you. Meaning, after a refund, you can exchange Paypal information with the buyer.

Because some buyers do not use Paypal (they paid by Credit Card on eBay), you can also create a listing with a generic title like 'Private Listing For Jim' and send the link to the buyer. Make the private listing for the same amount they need to re-pay, and they can check out directly on eBay. Once they check out, manually mark it as shipped, and both of you are done.

Like someone above mentioned, stock messages are a good idea since they save time. You can tweek them as needed, but it saves you from having to re-type a message every time you have the same question. I think it is even a good idea to have a stock shipment confirmation message that you send to buyers when you ship something untracked. Something that basically says your item has been handed off to Canada Post, it should take between x-y amount of days, please be aware that while your item was handed off quickly there can be delays, if you have any issues please contact me so that I can help, etc, etc.

If a package is delayed, and you reached out to someone at the time you shipped it, they are a lot more likely to be patient and wait because you've let them know that it has for sure shipped and you have also set expectations about ship times and delays. Communication goes a long way.