New seller: item lost in the US mail

[shephsumsara]

Hi, everyone, 

I made my first eBay sales about a month ago--five separate collectible sports programs from the 40s that had belonged to my grandfather that my mom might have thrown out. I'm in Canada, and four went to the US. Three of those were fine, but the fourth one got tracking updates till it got to the destination town, but then was reported as having been attempted deliveries to an unknown address twice and returned to sender. The buyer has visited the post office twice, and said he's been told it's been returned to me, but the tracking shows no indication of it having moved out of that town since November 7. 

I phoned the destination town post office and got a very helpful person on Friday Nov 6, (the second attempted delivery happened the next day) but have tried over and over since then but never had the phone answered. That person said it wasn't in the office but he could read a partial photo of the address: I think I got the name and street number and zip code right but the street name wrong. (The recipient's lived in the house for 25 years, and a similar-but-wrong street name wouldn't matter in Toronto, but maybe it does there.) I tried the next-biggest town it went through en route there, but they didn't answer the phone. 

I can't put a trace on it via USPS because I'm Canadian, and the central USPS phone number just sends me to an unhelpful computer. I've put a trace on it via Canada Post but they said not to follow up till Nov 30. 

I'm concerned because I'm going to be charged the selling fee as of November 30. I received the sales fee from the buyer via PayPal, but told him that of course I won't spend it, etc till he gets the piece. I'm also concerned bc it's worth a few hundred dollars and the value had to be declared on the sticker because it was crossing the border. (FWIW Canada Post only does $100 insurance.)

Does anyone have suggestions? Should I cancel the sale altogether and promise to resell it to him if/when it turns up? Can he retract the money (which I consider his) without my consent via eBay but leave me stuck with the sales fee?  Does anyone know more about Canadians getting info from USPS? Could it be moving back here without being tracked? 

Thanks so much!

[reallynicestamps]

but the fourth one got tracking updates till it got to the destination town, but then was reported as having been attempted deliveries to an unknown address twice and returned to sender.

The good news for you (but not for your buyer), shipments that are found to be Undeliverable are eventually returned to the seller.

but the tracking shows no indication of it having moved out of that town since November 7.

Eventually.

Not as a priority.

And the part that will annoy your buyer, the seller is not responsible for any shipment sent to an Undeliverable address.

Which means, too bad buyer who has lived in the same house for 25 years, the seller doesn't owe you a dime.

But as an honest man, you know that is not right or ethical. (It can be a lifesaver in some nasty scams though.)

You are in touch with the buyer. Good.

You have put a Canada Post trace on the shipment. Good.

You main job now is to keep your buyer soothed until the shipment is returned at which point, even though eBay won't insist on it, you can refund the buyer.

Then the two of you can start again. And you have each other's contact information. to simplify the task.

he could read a partial photo of the address: I think I got the name and street number and zip code right but the street name wrong.

Since you made the error in the street name, you ethically owe the buyer his full original payment. And if you both decide on a new transaction, in my opinion it would be gracious if you sent it as Free Shipping-- paying for the shipping yourself.

I'm also concerned bc it's worth a few hundred dollars and the value had to be declared on the sticker because it was crossing the border.

Your buyer has an $800 duty free allowance.

And you will be receiving returned merchandise.

So don't worry about that.

FWIW Canada Post only does $100 insurance.

Irrelevant, the error was yours not the postal services. They are not at fault, and insurance is not a question .

Can he retract the money (which I consider his) without my consent via eBay but leave me stuck with the sales fee?

That's an interesting question.

The shipment won't arrive within the window eBay allowed.

Tracking will show the shipment as Undeliverable.

The buyer has 30 days from the last day of the delivery window to open a Dispute. Your defense is "undeliverable".

But you are the reason it was undeliverable.

The buyer can also go to Paypal for 180 days from Payment. So there's that.

Could it be moving back here without being tracked?

It almost certainly is.

Slowly.

What CPO shipping service did you use? Priority Post? Tracked Packet USA?

[shephsumsara]

Thank you! That's very helpful. I appreciate your time in something so confusing. 

I guess what I meant about the value on the sticker is that it seems more likely that a postal worker would steal it (although I know this rarely happens, but things do get "lost" forever)...

"Dispute" doesn't feel right: I don't feel like we're in a conflict with each other. I guess I'm wondering if my PayPal account would automatically refund his money if the sale is somehow cancelled on eBay, or if eBay considers the sale closed and it's "my" money now because it's in my account, in which case it would be up to me to return it to him somehow. When you say the buyer can go to PayPal for 180 days do you mean he can retract his payment for that long? 

I'm also wondering how, if this isn't resolved by November 30, I can get out of paying the eBay sales fee (all my sales fees are due then) for a sale I never got paid for. 

[shephsumsara]

Re your last question: I used tracked packet, I think. I didn't use any of the services that send it extra fast. The tracking shows it got to where it was going quite quickly. 

[reallynicestamps]

is that it seems more likely that a postal worker would steal it

First, have you ever seen a postal terminal?

It's too busy for a worker to spot and read a customs label. Most of those carriers (post-terminal) who have been 'stealing' mail are mentally ill, hoarders, and can't cope with the pressures of the job. 

Whatever you sold, the likelihood of postal theft is very very low.

And since it is tracked, it's in a bag or cart somewhere waiting for the bag to fill and be sent back to Canada. Again, Undeliverable mail is very low priority for any postal service.

I guess I'm wondering if my PayPal account would automatically refund his money if the sale is somehow cancelled on eBay,

If you cancel the transaction, yes, eBay will instruct Paypal to refund the buyer.

eBay considers the sale closed and it's "my" money now because it's in my account,

Not because it's in your account, but because the shipment was Undeliverable.

Which again, is not the fault of USPS or of the buyer.

in which case it would be up to me to return it to him somehow.

That's actually quite simple.

Go to your PP account, after you have the shipment back, and there is a refund link on the Transaction Details page.

Do NOT do this until you have the shipment back.

It is possible that USPS figures out the problem and delivers to the customer. And you end up with neither item nor payment. As a pya, you want to have the item before giving back the payment. Which is harsh and uncomfortable.

the buyer can go to PayPal for 180 days do you mean he can retract his payment for that long?

No.

It means he can open a Dispute* as Item Not Received at any time during the 180 days after payment.  Just as he can open a credit card chargeback - although card policies differ.

Everybody in this transaction (you, the buyer, Canada Post, USPS, eBay, PP, the buyer's credit card) want to solve this equitably. Most of them are completely neutral, they don't care who "wins" as long as the complaining stops.

*It's just a word. Disagreement or Problem would be better in this context, but the word that is used and understood by all is Dispute.

[shephsumsara]

Thank you, that's very helpful. Including the photo of the postal terminal! 

 What you say about it being low priority makes sense, especially as I sent it during the U.S. election, which was probably poor strategy, and now Christmas is coming on.  

Can I ask EBay not to charge me for the sale until the situation is resolved? Or does there need to be a formal "dispute" for that? The money will be deducted in a few days. 

[triber]

Something that might help in the future, I always copy and paste the address, that way I can't make a mistake.

[shephsumsara]

On second thought, when I look at the invoice, it's a "fee," not a "tax," so I guess that's reasonable if Ebay processed the sale. Sigh.

[mrdutch1001]

Canada Post does not consider an item "lost" until 30 days after the shipping date, so that would be the time frame when you could put in a claim with Canada Post.

With the value of the item,  It can be worth the extra $ to pay for the appropriate amount of insurance if so desired...Registered Mail/Expedited Parcel/Xpresspost are alternatives, albeit expensive, but sometimes worth it on valuable items.

[femmefan1946]

Do NOT use Registered Mail for out of Canada shipments.

And for in Canada Shipments, Expedited and ExpressPost are both cheaper and faster.

Registered Mail is not just 20th century service, it's from the 18th century when the Royal Mail called it "Money Letter".

Basically Registered Mail is not trackable once it leaves the sending country.

[ricarmic]

I would just add an addendum to registered mail.

eBay and PAYPAL do not consider it a valid form of tracking, however, in my own experience, often it does show tracking (eventually) to international countries - at least China and Brazil.

I still sometimes utilize it for shipments to those countries because to the buyer and the postal system it looks like it is tracked. So far (fingers crossed) in my 20 years here, I've never lost a registered item, and a surprising number of items to China showed tracking all the way to delivery!

Having said this, I don't remember the last time I sent something registered, although most days by now I've forgotten what I've had for breakfast.....

[pjcdn2005]

Have you had a situation or know of one when they refused to accept online delivery confirmation of a registered letter as proof of delivery?  I’ve never seen anything from eBay saying that they don’t accept it but some countries don’t show online proof which is where the problem comes in.

Canada Post info doesn’t say that there will be online delivery confirmation for registered mail.. only that the sender can purchase an advise of receipt which in some cases is just physical proof, not online proof.

I’m not positive,  but I seem to recall at least one poster that said they won an inr claim  with online delivery confirmation for an item sent overseas with registered mail. 

[marnotom!]

---

@pjcdn2005 wrote:

Have you had a situation or know of one when they refused to accept online delivery confirmation of a registered letter as proof of delivery?  I’ve never seen anything from eBay saying that they don’t accept it but some countries don’t show online proof which is where the problem comes in.

Canada Post info doesn’t say that there will be online delivery confirmation for registered mail.. only that the sender can purchase an advise of receipt which in some cases is just physical proof, not online proof.

I’m not positive,  but I seem to recall at least one poster that said they won an inr claim  with online delivery confirmation for an item sent overseas with registered mail. 

---

All the threads I've seen on the .com board about sellers using registered mail who have not prevailed in INR claims made them have had no online viewable proof of delivery.

I don't know if it's different for Canada Post, but for USPS  I believe one has to specifically request that a registered mail item's delivery is online viewable.

[raanana]

I'm using registered,as have no choice.Other option on international mail with tracking are so expensive,that practicaly no buyer would ready to pay for it.Many buyer not ready to pay even for registered and asking to send 100$ items by regular,as they don't care and covered by Paypal,while seller always loose,if its claimed as not received.I'm here for 20 years and nothing has changed at all,sellers are not protected  and some buyers simply take an advantage ((.

Registered mail might be tracked all the way,but not always unfortunately .

[ricarmic]

I do not know about others, but personally as I mentioned I've never lost a registered letter so I have never had to test the claim aspect.

I would be surprised if one provided a registered tracking number that DID show delivery that they wouldn't accept it. I would understand that they wouldn't if it didn't show delivery.

Yes the AR card is simply a postcard that comes back to you. (or it was, I haven't used that forever either, when I did they only sporadically came back they weren't reliable and nobody here (ebay/paypal) cared about them anyway because they weren't online).

[reallynicestamps]

@raanana 

international mail with tracking are so expensive,that practicaly no buyer would ready to pay for it.

I think you are overestimating the cost of shipping.

The lowest cost for Tracking International service is $14.15 for a packet under 100gr.

If you are selling postcards and stamps, there is no need to spend more.

In any case, it is the buyer who pays for shipping. Let him decide whether the cost is too high or not.

In my opinion, not only are you discouraging purchases with more information in your Description about shipping costs than you have about the product, but all of that could be covered in your Shipping.

And your Terms are unenforceable.

You cannot raise the cost of shipping after purchase.

If you advertise $12.50 to ship a card that is the most you can charge.

It's also kinda high. I can ship most postcards internationally by LetterPost (less than 200gr and less than 2cm thick) for $11.14 while Tracked would be $47.50.

https://www.canadapost.ca/information/app/far/business/findARate?execution=e1s1

Which comes back to Cookie Jar Insurance.

Which is simply adding a few pennies to my asking price as a self-insurance premium against the occasional Dispute -- which is more likely to be an honest problem than a scam.

You put those virtual pennies in a virtual Cookie Jar, and pay out when there is a Claim.

Without arguing.

[raanana]

I've just found your reply,thank you.

"The lowest cost for Tracking International service is $14.15 for a packet under 100gr."

The cheapest international tracking service I know is registered mail ,$19.50 + postage with max.insurance of $60.00,all other option are even more expensive  .

Years ago we had small packet service with trackin,but its gone (.