Another bombshell from the US Boards - Paypal to allow 180 days for INR & INAD

[dutchman48]

This is getting ridiculous

Effective Date: November 18, 2014

Dispute Filing Window

We’re increasing the time for buyers to file a merchandise dispute (Item Not Received and Significantly Not as Described) from 45 days to 180 days.   All references in the User Agreement to “Opening a Dispute within 45 days” have been updated to reflect “Opening a Dispute within 180 days.” The Sections these changes appear include the Introduction, 3.15, 13.2 and 13.5.

at the bottom of the PayPal page under "Policy Updates

[73rhc]

Not sure if you are replying to the entire post or just to pocomocomputing. But this will have a major effect on a lot of sellers when some buyers figure out 5 months or so down the road that their item is still under "guarantee".

[pjcdn2005]

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@mr.elmwood wrote:

Hum. Interesting. This will have no affect on honest sellers. None at all. They always ship high quality merchandise in a timely manner.

This will seriously affect the dishonest sellers such as the ones from China that email "Just wait a few more days" and the next thing ya know, you are past the 45 days for INR and SNAD.

There is far too much international commerce that falls outside the 45 days.

If you figure this will hurt you, you are not an honest seller. Vast majority of buyers are perfectly honest. Assuming the are not speaks to you. eBay is not for everyone.

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Suggesting that someone who expresses concern over this change is not honest is offensive.  There is a huge difference between 45 days and 180 days and there is absolutely no need for the claim period to be that long. If this is simply an international problem then they should extend the claim time for international customers but not to six months. 

I think that part of the reason people do not make their claims in the time given now is a communication problem. There is quite a bit of information on the site that tells the buyer how to file a claim and makes no mention of the time limit.  For example, on the page that poco posted the link for, there is no mention of a 45 day time limit. On the corresponding .com page, there is no mention of a 30 day claim limit. I'm sure that it is stated somewhere but buyers shouldn't have to hunt for that information.

[dutchman48]

Here is my take on this.

Buyers will be able to return what they want when they want, maybe if Ebay says to return or not. Ebay introduced you do not need to get the item back, just refund the buyer. If yo want it back, you also pay return shipping.

Now you could be out the selling price, original shipping, return shipping if you ask for your used merchandise back or the item as well. Does anyone believe Ebay will do anything after that length of time as obviously it will never be as described. Forget the appeal of Ebay's or Paypal's decision

Great selling experience. But wonderful to keep the buyer's happy. Removes any ability for insurance claims by sellers as all will be out of the claim time frames.

I really don't know why anybody would want to sell under these conditions. Honest, dishonest, small, large, Chinese or anyone else.

If you read the US boards, people are already talking on the street how to scam on Ebay. Easier than shoplifting and no punishment at all.

[cumos55]

Today the claim period is 45 days, and it will be 180 days

If we look back... Was that claim period 60 days, or even 90 days  at some time years ago?

Sellers  who provide good, well described items for sale  should do well

Scam buyers  will have  their day... until they get caught... and if sellers  report them...these buyers will become NARU.

But then what about sellers that become NARU as well.

Then those scam sellers... there are a few... or many more than a few  .... who cannot hide for 45  days and then say "Sorry, too late".

eBay should find it easy to identify  the bad sellers,  as well as the bad buyers....

There just might be a lot of jockeying to find out what to do  to remain on eBay.....  

One gets the impression that people that find it difficult  will take themselves off eBay.

Scary... Yes

Impossible... Not quite...

eBay will be a whole new world....  

In the late 1700's  it was the French Revolution....  and the guillotine became a well used "tool"

And very soon we just might have a totally new revolution   in the mid 2010's 

[rose-dee]

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@mr.elmwood wrote:

If you figure this will hurt you, you are not an honest seller. Vast majority of buyers are perfectly honest. Assuming the are not speaks to you.

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Although I understand what you're trying to say, and I agree that the majority of buyers are honest, I think the fear amongst sellers is that once word gets out, this will be one of the easiest ways for unscrupulous buyers to impact honest sellers.  In other words, it's a scam attractant, like flies to honey. 

It's ironic to me that after having spent so much effort over the last 3 or 4 year trying to reduce fraud, scams, rip-offs and just plain bad behaviour, eBay is permitting Paypal to open the doors to all manner of mischief (with complete impunity apparently too).

As 'dutchman' says, it won't matter what sort of seller you are, this will impact you eventually, especially if you're selling items of significant value or high desirability.  We might as well become lenders, not sellers.  

[mr.elmwood]

I have been hearing the message of "When word gets out" for a decade now. Word still has not got out. When will it be out?

I have a shrinkage budget. I have always had a shrinkage budget. Every business has a shrinkage budget. I refuse to let malfeasance, or the possibility there of, impact my day.

If a seller cannot accept the ebb and flows of commerce, selling is not for them. Here is a jarring fact: not all sales go 100%. Budget for that. I do. My losses are within budget so I do not care.

I have a budget for sales, COGS, overhead, supplies, time, space, and losses. The LOWEST cost in my business? Losses.

If this is a "bombshell" that many are running and hiding from, I will not.

I will not be scared. I will not fear the worse. I will not let fear alter my view of eBay.

Every spring update, every fall update, there is the headline "When word gets out the scammers will get us". It has never happened. Why has it never happened?

I refuse to be afraid. eBay is far easier, safer, simpler, far lower losses than the real world. I make more money with less cost than I could anywhere else.

Yes, I am blunt. If some wish to be blunt about being afraid, I will be blunt with reasons not to be afraid.

[ricarmic]

I think Mr E has a good point. Pierre and myself have discussed in other threads the level of trust that has existed in the stamp world for over a century before there was an eBay.

Having said this, I agree also with Rose that some desirable items, like cell phones, gold etc may become even more dangerous things to sell. (In my world China stamps which are very marketable are my highest loss rate in terms of what I call "crime" losses").

Just like all the changes that seem to be coming along, one has to look at what they are selling, the circumstances/opportunities eBay, (or other sites etc) present and whether that continues to suit the material being sold.

I think for stamps it probably will make marginal difference. My guess would be that it might have a bigger impact for high value electronics, gold etc, but those are not my game so who am I to say!

As with all their changes, I'm sure they have a reason, as with any jumungous company, the idea behind this probably started a year or two ago, so who knows if it is still relevant now that it has finally made it to "production" mode.....at least from my experience with large companies, response time is very slow so currency can sometimes be a problem by the time everyone has agreed, and the agreed upon thing has been built and implemented....

[realjazz-123]

Sorry, but I cannot comprehend a valid reason for extending an INAD complaint from 45 days to 6 months!!! If having  a purchased item for 45 days does not lead to a complaint, the buyer found the item was acceptable, Now with another 4.5  months the chances of finding   something "wrong'  will certainly increase. It seems eBay wants to go far overboard to find or keep buyers, but clearly at the expense of  sellers.  Some sellers  on this board seem immune from stress of any kind, but many, like myself do not relish knowing that the waiting period for an honest transaction to be fully complete will be 6 months. Presumably, eBay expects some buyers to take advantage of this extraordinary time period, a huge comfort zone. I can only speak for myself as an honest seller -the huge change in time is totally unjustified!!!

[ricarmic]

Hi Real! Of the two changes, I understand the not received extended because of long delivery times internationally (Brazil is often 10 - 12 weeks for my stuff sent airmail!).

Perhaps the INAD is for the same reason. If my Brazilian buyer buys the item, it takes 12 weeks to arrive, it is only at the 12 week mark that they know it was INAD.....

Having said this 6 months is a long time, I consider the 12 weeks my "worst case", but I don't use surface. In the days when I did, 5 months was not uncommon, that's why I stopped using it.

[realjazz-123]

Hi: With all respect. I think the delivery times you describe (12 weeks) are not usual for most sellers. Assuming most sold items might take 2-3 weeks or less for delivery for USA and Canada destinations,  a "wait and see" period  of 24 weeks from sale  is mind boggling.

[squinchtweedledeewee]

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@kashka wrote:

I am not even the least bit surprised...the ebay ceo is now running PP so you knew something stupid would happen.I am glad my main venue, Aunt Betsy, accepts other forms of payment.

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You pay in cats??? How does that work?

[cumos55]

Cats???

The cat lady will become very wealthy....

[kashka]

I draw the line at cats.

[gifts_of_elegance]

Mr. Elmwood, I always thought you were a real nice guy but now you are being offensive.  I am very concerned about this new change and NOT because I am dishonest, Not because I don't ship quality merchandise in a timely manner and NOT because I am from China.  I am concerned because I sell expensive items.  Crystal, china and designer jewelry.  I would hate to have a $25,000+ set of china returned after someone kept running it through the dishwasher,  fed their kids and pets off it for six months and it was no longer presentable

I had Swarovski crystal up to $7,200 and just think what a nightmare that would be to have it returned after 6 months because the cat knocked it over and its beyond repair.  Ladies could wear my designer jewelry for 6 months at absolutely no cost to  them.  They could even keep it, all they have to do is scream "fake".  Etc, etc, etc.

I did not dream up these situations because I am dishonest.  All these things have been done to me at one time or another.  (Maybe for not that great value).  I remember my Easter being ruined because someone returned a $1,000 Swarovski grapes that was beyond repair.  Even the metal leaves were broken in pieces.  It was shipped in it original foam lined box and packed with lots of bubble wrap  and styrofoam.  There was no damage to the  packaging.

I am sure you did not mean to offend.

[cumos55]

My daughter is a cat lady... three cats... Taco, Lulu  and Annie...

[cumos55]

Each of us has to look carefully with respect to what we sell...

and ... then ... How much trouble we had in the past...

and ....then ... When that problem occurred in relation to when the item was bought...

We are all concerned.... 

We either adjust.. or leave...

Scary... Yes... most definitely YES

But ... Can we adjust?....  Can we deal effectively with a problem?......

and ... That is the critical reality

[gifts_of_elegance]

"Each of us has to look carefully with respect to what we sell.."

Exactly!  I started eBay selling Cross Stitch magazines.  Never had an "item not as described" or "item not  received" in 3 years.  If I did, I would not have batted an eyelash.  It was fun all the way.

Now I am worried.

[lukey9]

I started awhile back not listing expensive or bulky items and going with lower price items so I have been listing more to make up the differnce in sales and so far it has been working out for me sales are down a little but the profit is up and if I get a INR or INAD I just give them the Refund and move on. Even using CP I can not see any thing not arriving in 180 days and I think that is a little over board. I do not use surface for any one any where I learned my lesson on that along time ago. I watch my buying now so I do not get to far a head in product unless it is a super deal. I can see allot less sellers come November 14/18 because of the changes and I would not be wanting to sell higher price items or clothes. I sell mostly Military so most Buyers are well aware of what they are getting. I think it is going to be a very Challenging Xmas season on E-Bay

[pocomocomputing]

Since PayPal is a very popular online Payment option, perhaps PayPal is matching the dispute time like credit card chargeback times. The current 45 day time limit was very short if a buyer had issues.

The longer times might eliminate credit card chargebacks which must have been a pain for PayPal to process in time and money.

[dutchman48]

One question I have not seen any info on, is when will Paypal allow escalation in regards to the 180 days?